giro doping thread

[May0maniac]

Re:

3rd fastest Giro in history!!!! Cleans.........

Hesjedal up there on MTFs and finishing so strong in 3rd week. Not clean.

That doesn't mean that much, stages used to be much longer and this year we always had a really fast first hour and most of the time the breakaway wasn't able to get a big gap.
From https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily

The overall speed doesn't mean a lot or would you argue that the Giro used to be cleaner in the 90ies?

 

[nayr497]

I don't know what to think about Hesjedal. Consistent and not winning. But damn, still being up at the front and attacking day after day after day, without teammates.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Winner - Alberto Contador - caught doping 2010. Implicated Operation Puerto
Mountains jersey - Gio Visconti- caught working with Ferrari 2013. Suspended 3 months
Points jersey - Nizzolo
White jersey- Fabio Aru- doping hero worshiper on Vino's team
Team comp - Astana- found to be mass team doping last year and in other years in their history.

Porte - never caught or implicated ...

Wtf does that have to do with anything.

 

[the sceptic]

well, this has arguably been one of the most farcical grand tours in recent memory, especially taking into consideration what happened with Astana last year. Let's check in with the leading anti-doping authorities and see what they've said.

Walsh - Hasn't made a single tweet or written anything about the giro. Sky must have been paying him by the tweet.
Lemond - Has had the concept of doping surgically removed from his brain after he started working for omertasport.
JV - the patron saint of anti doping, but I can't recall him saying anything about the giro getting dominating by taht joke team and won by a known doper.

well, at least it's entertaining. I can't wait to see what kind of freakshow the tour will produce. But if anyone really thinks there is even the slightest hope of clean cycling.. better get a reality check.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

the new data on micro-epo dosing being effective and pretty much undetectable is just another advancement in the "arms race" on use and detection. Probably should just make everything legal for racers over 21 years of age. Watching the Astana riders ride as hard as they did at the end of the Giro, essentially coming from nowhere, is completely indicative of doping and Contador isn't going to say a word as he is probably just as involved, as he should be, he's still probably one of the best grand tour riders of all time, effortlessly so. Btw, cycling is the perfect place for such doping, it's a braindead sport, you essentially need to have a strong motor, feed yourself properly, not screw up too much on descents and you get a.....Chris Froome, compared to x country skiing or swimming where technique actually matters, one of the dirty secrets of pro cycling is that many of the riders are terrible bike handlers (Froome, Andy Schleck, etc) yet completely successful because you simply have to ride a lot, that's why you get fondos and all these other "stay on your bike until you drop" events that almost anyone can do. That being said, I really love the helicopter shots of a pro peloton going across/down a mountain pass

Which of the riders from AST came from nowhere?

2nd bolded: Ahhhh yes, was waiting for it. The good ol "technique argument". Preferably used by Baseball and Soccer fans. Well, here is news for you: Same dope ridden sports. Not better at all. Not more talented. Not better people. But same hefty influence of doping into results (see Bonds & McGwire as prime examples).

And x-skiing? It´s all about right waxing, manufactures and else. Next time come up with better ones.
Swimming "technique"? You learn it as early as cycling. Not more difficult than going straight line on a bike. But it´s a whole different thing to ride in a peloton inches apart from your opponents going at 45 kmph...

Nice try though.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Re: Re:

the new data on micro-epo dosing being effective and pretty much undetectable is just another advancement in the "arms race" on use and detection. Probably should just make everything legal for racers over 21 years of age. Watching the Astana riders ride as hard as they did at the end of the Giro, essentially coming from nowhere, is completely indicative of doping and Contador isn't going to say a word as he is probably just as involved, as he should be, he's still probably one of the best grand tour riders of all time, effortlessly so. Btw, cycling is the perfect place for such doping, it's a braindead sport, you essentially need to have a strong motor, feed yourself properly, not screw up too much on descents and you get a.....Chris Froome, compared to x country skiing or swimming where technique actually matters, one of the dirty secrets of pro cycling is that many of the riders are terrible bike handlers (Froome, Andy Schleck, etc) yet completely successful because you simply have to ride a lot, that's why you get fondos and all these other "stay on your bike until you drop" events that almost anyone can do. That being said, I really love the helicopter shots of a pro peloton going across/down a mountain pass

Which of the riders from AST came from nowhere?

2nd bolded: Ahhhh yes, was waiting for it. The good ol "technique argument". Preferably used by Baseball and Soccer fans. Well, here is news for you: Same dope ridden sports. Not better at all. Not more talented. Not better people. But same hefty influence of doping into results (see Bonds & McGwire as prime examples).

And x-skiing? It´s all about right waxing, manufactures and else. Next time come up with better ones.
Swimming "technique"? You learn it as early as cycling. Not more difficult than going straight line on a bike. But it´s a whole different thing to ride in a peloton inches apart from your opponents going at 45 kmph...

Nice try though.

Comparing Froome to Bonds? Hmm, let's see, on one hand we have a guy who was one of the best players in the history of his sport before ever touching a PED (going on the assumption he started using after the '98 season. On the other hand we have a guy who was a completely nobody dangling off the back of team cars on MTFs who then proceeded to humiliate a field of known dopers in the '13 Tour with a physique unlike any human on the planet.

I'm not sure whether "talent" is the correct nomenclature when describing the difference in skill levels between a baseball and cycling, but rest assured there is no aspect of cycling that requires the skill of throwing (or hitting) a 96MPH or 79 mph curveball.

 

[Bronstein]

Re:

well, this has arguably been one of the most farcical grand tours in recent memory, especially taking into consideration what happened with Astana last year. Let's check in with the leading anti-doping authorities and see what they've said.

Walsh - Hasn't made a single tweet or written anything about the giro. Sky must have been paying him by the tweet.

Walsh at his best:

Mark Elders ‏@MarkElders62 May 18
@DavidWalshST David what do you think about Astana's performance so far at #Giro2015 ? Can they all really be this good??

David Walsh ‏@DavidWalshST May 18
@MarkElders62 Mark, a number of people have asked, I try to say nothing because I don't truly know but I don't believe and I can't enjoy.

 

[sniper]

how is this Mark Elders guy even interested in Walsh's opinion?
Walsh's logic is all over the place.
All of Froome's success has gone over the back of a gloriously doped Astana.
Walsh'll be all hush-hush again at the TdF when Froome goes bananas.
What a disgusting sell-out.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

2 weeks later it looked worse, surely? May 18th was just scratching the surface of Astana's dominance.

 

[hmpower]

Don't be to mean to Fabio Aru! he will sue! Greg Henderson found this out recently... But this a warning of things to come?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

the new data on micro-epo dosing being effective and pretty much undetectable is just another advancement in the "arms race" on use and detection. Probably should just make everything legal for racers over 21 years of age. Watching the Astana riders ride as hard as they did at the end of the Giro, essentially coming from nowhere, is completely indicative of doping and Contador isn't going to say a word as he is probably just as involved, as he should be, he's still probably one of the best grand tour riders of all time, effortlessly so. Btw, cycling is the perfect place for such doping, it's a braindead sport, you essentially need to have a strong motor, feed yourself properly, not screw up too much on descents and you get a.....Chris Froome, compared to x country skiing or swimming where technique actually matters, one of the dirty secrets of pro cycling is that many of the riders are terrible bike handlers (Froome, Andy Schleck, etc) yet completely successful because you simply have to ride a lot, that's why you get fondos and all these other "stay on your bike until you drop" events that almost anyone can do. That being said, I really love the helicopter shots of a pro peloton going across/down a mountain pass

Which of the riders from AST came from nowhere?

2nd bolded: Ahhhh yes, was waiting for it. The good ol "technique argument". Preferably used by Baseball and Soccer fans. Well, here is news for you: Same dope ridden sports. Not better at all. Not more talented. Not better people. But same hefty influence of doping into results (see Bonds & McGwire as prime examples).

And x-skiing? It´s all about right waxing, manufactures and else. Next time come up with better ones.
Swimming "technique"? You learn it as early as cycling. Not more difficult than going straight line on a bike. But it´s a whole different thing to ride in a peloton inches apart from your opponents going at 45 kmph...

Nice try though.

Comparing Froome to Bonds? Hmm, let's see, on one hand we have a guy who was one of the best players in the history of his sport before ever touching a PED (going on the assumption he started using after the '98 season. On the other hand we have a guy who was a completely nobody dangling off the back of team cars on MTFs who then proceeded to humiliate a field of known dopers in the '13 Tour with a physique unlike any human on the planet.

I'm not sure whether "talent" is the correct nomenclature when describing the difference in skill levels between a baseball and cycling, but rest assured there is no aspect of cycling that requires the skill of throwing (or hitting) a 96MPH or 79 mph curveball.

Then take Troy Claus. He made close to 100 million USD thanks to PEDs. Yes it was all about him having the talent to hit curveballs.
WTF, if you don´t know it, don´t talk about.
Claus was Triple A caliber. PEDs made him rich...
Oh, and btw, I did not compare Bonds to Froome. I just said PEDs have the same major influence in other sports... It´s a myth that only cyclists profit disproportional. The myth is repeated to save Baseball and sell the product MLB. Same goes for FIFA soccer and other so-called "talent-only-matters" sports.

If you are a superstar w/o PED, you become a Predator-Alien-Combo on PEDs, hitting 73 HRS and 350 in only 500 at bats. At 40+. That is like if Horner is winning 3 GTS in a season at 40+.
If you are donkey w/o PED you become a star with them (see Claus).
Got it now?

 

[Amazinmets87]

Re: Re:

the new data on micro-epo dosing being effective and pretty much undetectable is just another advancement in the "arms race" on use and detection. Probably should just make everything legal for racers over 21 years of age. Watching the Astana riders ride as hard as they did at the end of the Giro, essentially coming from nowhere, is completely indicative of doping and Contador isn't going to say a word as he is probably just as involved, as he should be, he's still probably one of the best grand tour riders of all time, effortlessly so. Btw, cycling is the perfect place for such doping, it's a braindead sport, you essentially need to have a strong motor, feed yourself properly, not screw up too much on descents and you get a.....Chris Froome, compared to x country skiing or swimming where technique actually matters, one of the dirty secrets of pro cycling is that many of the riders are terrible bike handlers (Froome, Andy Schleck, etc) yet completely successful because you simply have to ride a lot, that's why you get fondos and all these other "stay on your bike until you drop" events that almost anyone can do. That being said, I really love the helicopter shots of a pro peloton going across/down a mountain pass

Which of the riders from AST came from nowhere?

2nd bolded: Ahhhh yes, was waiting for it. The good ol "technique argument". Preferably used by Baseball and Soccer fans. Well, here is news for you: Same dope ridden sports. Not better at all. Not more talented. Not better people. But same hefty influence of doping into results (see Bonds & McGwire as prime examples).

And x-skiing? It´s all about right waxing, manufactures and else. Next time come up with better ones.
Swimming "technique"? You learn it as early as cycling. Not more difficult than going straight line on a bike. But it´s a whole different thing to ride in a peloton inches apart from your opponents going at 45 kmph...

Nice try though.

Comparing Froome to Bonds? Hmm, let's see, on one hand we have a guy who was one of the best players in the history of his sport before ever touching a PED (going on the assumption he started using after the '98 season. On the other hand we have a guy who was a completely nobody dangling off the back of team cars on MTFs who then proceeded to humiliate a field of known dopers in the '13 Tour with a physique unlike any human on the planet.

I'm not sure whether "talent" is the correct nomenclature when describing the difference in skill levels between a baseball and cycling, but rest assured there is no aspect of cycling that requires the skill of throwing (or hitting) a 96MPH or 79 mph curveball.

Then take Troy Claus. He made close to 100 million USD thanks to PEDs. Yes it was all about him having the talent to hit curveballs.
WTF, if you don´t know it, don´t talk about.
Claus was Triple A caliber. PEDs made him rich...
Oh, and btw, I did not compare Bonds to Froome. I just said PEDs have the same major influence in other sports... It´s a myth that only cyclists profit disproportional. The myth is repeated to save Baseball and sell the product MLB. Same goes for FIFA soccer and other so-called "talent-only-matters" sports.

If you are a superstar w/o PED, you become a Predator-Alien-Combo on PEDs, hitting 73 HRS and 350 in only 500 at bats. At 40+. That is like if Horner is winning 3 GTS in a season at 40+.
If you are donkey w/o PED you become a star with them (see Claus).
Got it now?

When did I say PEDs aren't beneficial to baseball players? PEDs (when used properly) are tremendously beneficial in any sport, but I'm convinced they're even more beneficial to performance in a low skill sport such as cycling.

As for Glaus being AAA caliber, in pro baseball once you reach AA virtually every player is good enough to play in the MLB, it usually comes down to politics (i.e how much money organizations have invested into a particular player; knowing the right personnel, etc.)

 

[Tonton]

With heart rate monitors, ear pieces, and the likes, it is true that cycling has become more one-dimensional than it's ever been. But less skills that baseball...not so sure. Try to go down a big descent...it takes skills to get down fast, and live to talk about it. Or contest a sprint. In baseball, slides get your pants dirty. In cycling, you lose skin or more. Comparing Bonds to Dawg? Careful: all these guys were in the top 1% of their respective sport to begin with. Doping gives an edge that gets bigger when the sport requires more of what the PED gives. As a caricature, give EPO to a skeet shooter, it won't help him/her win the Olympics. In the case of Bonds, he was good before, but nowhere near as powerful. Doping turned sacrifice flies, mishits, into HRs. Same for the two clowns, Mark and Sammy. And it is likely that in a sport where most go full ***, getting even more doped only gets you marginal gains over your mutant foes. Baseball is like cycling in the '90s...

 

[WillemS]

Why are we even discussing the matter like there's a dichotomy between doping-fueled sports and skill-fueled sports, as there isn't one. Sure, we can discuss the amount of (fine motor) skills required in a given sport and the estimated amount of doping used, but the two are largely independent if the sport in question involves any physical exertion.

Test it yourself, try something that requires any amount of fine motor skills at different levels of physical exhaustion. If you'll do it right, then you'll notice that control is negatively correlated with fatigue. I would even argue that there is a causal relationship between the two: fatigue causes less control. So using doping is extremely beneficial in sports that require fine motor skill and technique, as it is in sports that are fought mainly on the domain of physical fitness, like, arguably, cycling.

If you want to correlate anything with doping use, then I would suggest trying finance, although that might involve thresholds, stepped relationships and ceiling effects.

 

[vedrafjord]

Back to the topic of the thread, I was hugely disappointed by this Giro. Lots of people here seem to find blatantly doped performances hilarious but watching them live I just found them depressing. Watching some stages I just turned the TV off and got on my bike and headed up the mountains instead. Winning a GT should be the pinnacle of achievement in the sport and right now it doesn't seem to be open to anyone with a shred of integrity.

 

[Billie]

seems to me like il dottore's site is down?

 

[noddy69]

Re:

Back to the topic of the thread, I was hugely disappointed by this Giro. Lots of people here seem to find blatantly doped performances hilarious but watching them live I just found them depressing. Watching some stages I just turned the TV off and got on my bike and headed up the mountains instead. Winning a GT should be the pinnacle of achievement in the sport and right now it doesn't seem to be open to anyone with a shred of integrity.

I tend to agree. There is no suffering involved no matter how hard they make the stages: The enjoyment of watching riders battle up mountain finishes is gone and I don't see a way back which is sad.
Pretty amazing after all the good press with the new leadership that nothing is being said about the insane speeds that Giro was ridden at. The press even look as if they have been silenced. If the passport and drug testing can't catch anyone at that Giro from the top 10 then what hope is there ....although not surprising when you look at sport in general. There is no appetite for the fight against doping: Look at sprinting, marathon runners,athletics in general with Russia outed but seemingly immune - Tennis a shambles with guys and girls playing for hours without an ounce of effort....triathlon,Iron man insane times- football immune, Rugby in denial....at least darts is open about lads using enhancment with pints of beer
The Giro is just what we care about, sport and money = drug use and cheats=fame and fortune even when caught. The chances of getting caught are slim !

 

[Dr.Guess]

Re: Re:

Back to the topic of the thread, I was hugely disappointed by this Giro. Lots of people here seem to find blatantly doped performances hilarious but watching them live I just found them depressing. Watching some stages I just turned the TV off and got on my bike and headed up the mountains instead. Winning a GT should be the pinnacle of achievement in the sport and right now it doesn't seem to be open to anyone with a shred of integrity.

I tend to agree. There is no suffering involved no matter how hard they make the stages: The enjoyment of watching riders battle up mountain finishes is gone and I don't see a way back which is sad.
Pretty amazing after all the good press with the new leadership that nothing is being said about the insane speeds that Giro was ridden at. The press even look as if they have been silenced. If the passport and drug testing can't catch anyone at that Giro from the top 10 then what hope is there ....although not surprising when you look at sport in general. There is no appetite for the fight against doping: Look at sprinting, marathon runners,athletics in general with Russia outed but seemingly immune - Tennis a shambles with guys and girls playing for hours without an ounce of effort....triathlon,Iron man insane times- football immune, Rugby in denial....at least darts is open about lads using enhancment with pints of beer
The Giro is just what we care about, sport and money = drug use and cheats=fame and fortune even when caught. The chances of getting caught are slim !

The bolded part is spot on. Even though i wonder if it ever was like that?

 

[peloton]

Re:

Back to the topic of the thread, I was hugely disappointed by this Giro. Lots of people here seem to find blatantly doped performances hilarious but watching them live I just found them depressing. Watching some stages I just turned the TV off and got on my bike and headed up the mountains instead. Winning a GT should be the pinnacle of achievement in the sport and right now it doesn't seem to be open to anyone with a shred of integrity.

Just wait for July, this was nothing

 

[the delgados]

New rule!
53-tooth chain-ring climbs all the way up the mountain. Get those shoulders swaying, guys.
(i kid)

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Back to the topic of the thread, I was hugely disappointed by this Giro. Lots of people here seem to find blatantly doped performances hilarious but watching them live I just found them depressing. Watching some stages I just turned the TV off and got on my bike and headed up the mountains instead. Winning a GT should be the pinnacle of achievement in the sport and right now it doesn't seem to be open to anyone with a shred of integrity.

The last rider I can think of with more than a shred of dignity to win a GT was Gino Bartali. Did Bartali dope? I dont know. But what he did during WWII on his bike showed a man of true courage.

The way LeMond seems to have no problem with any dopers bar Armstrong really makes me doubt he rode clean.

Doping and cheating has been an integral part of the sport since the beginning. Yes, riders were able to race clean at the top level over the years, but they have been the few exceptions and maybe 1 in a thousand, if even that. Did clean riders win GTs, in the modern era I doubt that a man can beat another man who is taking substances to aid performance and recovery over 3 weeks.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The bolded part is spot on. Even though i wonder if it ever was like that?

Of course it was.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The way LeMond seems to have no problem with any dopers bar Armstrong really makes me doubt he rode clean.

That is quite honestly the dumbest, in a long, long history of dumb, unsupported accusations against LeMond. Chapeau.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

The way LeMond seems to have no problem with any dopers bar Armstrong really makes me doubt he rode clean.

That is quite honestly the dumbest, in a long, long history of dumb, unsupported accusations against LeMond. Chapeau.

Thanks.

I find it hard to watch LeMond talk about Pantani, Contador, Nibali and these guys and ignore the bleeding obvious.

I find it hypocritical that he went after Armstrong but rides around Paris in a car containing Merckx, Indurain and Hinault who all doped and prior to the 'reasoned decision' defended Armstrong.

That doesn't make LeMond a proven doper, but it sure makes him a hypocrite and if he has no problem with their wins, why is that? In this sport it sure doesn't point me in a direction that makes one think oh he was clean......and I used to think yep LeMond was THE clean winner of the modern era! Now I doubt it.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Winner - Alberto Contador - caught doping 2010. Implicated Operation Puerto
Mountains jersey - Gio Visconti- caught working with Ferrari 2013. Suspended 3 months
Points jersey - Nizzolo
White jersey- Fabio Aru- doping hero worshiper on Vino's team
Team comp - Astana- found to be mass team doping last year and in other years in their history.

And that's a wrap, folks.
Glad you could join us for the 2015 Giro. See you next year!

We could start with the ones that didn't win anything and go from there.

That's why the clean teams cant compete ...

Which ones are those?

We could start with the ones who didnt win anything and go from there ...