Same old stuff from Chris E, basically dismissing people who rode, worked and were involved in pro cycling at the top level in the 80s. Why believe people who were involved in the front line when Chris E blieves it was impossible to win without doping, clearly he knows more than they do.
I dont think anyone doubts the valditiy that some of the drugs used improved performance in the 80s but what seems to be the general tone is that regardless of those improvements, the really super talented guys could win without drugs. So if a guy with less talent was jacked up, he still might not have beaten the super talented guy. There was no magic transformation drug like EPO.
The fact is Chris E refuses to accept that was possible, he has no proof of any sort to the contrary so just continues on and on. Everyone seems pretty accepting of what Floyd, Tyler and George H are saying in regards to Lance, not even Chris E is doubting that but put three people directly linked with the sport in the 80s saying it was possible to win without drugs and its instantly dismissed by Chris E. That doesnt even need to include people with a reputation to protect, think Willy Voet or Bernard Tapie.
I am sure if someone had something on LeMond, Lance would have made sure he got his hands on it, the cycling world is small enough for stuff to get around. How many of Lance's early team-mates rode in the LeMond era, hard to believe that none of them heard nothing dodgy about LeMond. Bauer, Lauritzen, Dernies, Anderson and of course Lance's main man in his early years Sean Yates. His mentors Bob Roll, Sherwan, Jim Ochowicz all there in the 80s. Do people believe doping was never talked about at Motorola at all, even in a gossipy way. If there were stories, they would have been in the grapevine and Lance would have made sure they got out.
I dont think anyone doubts the valditiy that some of the drugs used improved performance in the 80s but what seems to be the general tone is that regardless of those improvements, the really super talented guys could win without drugs. So if a guy with less talent was jacked up, he still might not have beaten the super talented guy. There was no magic transformation drug like EPO.
The fact is Chris E refuses to accept that was possible, he has no proof of any sort to the contrary so just continues on and on. Everyone seems pretty accepting of what Floyd, Tyler and George H are saying in regards to Lance, not even Chris E is doubting that but put three people directly linked with the sport in the 80s saying it was possible to win without drugs and its instantly dismissed by Chris E. That doesnt even need to include people with a reputation to protect, think Willy Voet or Bernard Tapie.
I am sure if someone had something on LeMond, Lance would have made sure he got his hands on it, the cycling world is small enough for stuff to get around. How many of Lance's early team-mates rode in the LeMond era, hard to believe that none of them heard nothing dodgy about LeMond. Bauer, Lauritzen, Dernies, Anderson and of course Lance's main man in his early years Sean Yates. His mentors Bob Roll, Sherwan, Jim Ochowicz all there in the 80s. Do people believe doping was never talked about at Motorola at all, even in a gossipy way. If there were stories, they would have been in the grapevine and Lance would have made sure they got out.
- Jul 4, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
...the following teaser paragraphs are from an article about Scott Mercier's year with Postal....hope they help the discussion move along...
Most days ended with either intervals or motor-pacing. On each day were either dots or stars; the dots represented pills, and the stars represented injections. When I asked him what was in the baggie with green pills and glass vials he replied, ‘steroids.’ He indicated that they were mild, and told me, ‘no racing… for sure you test positive, but you go strong like bull.’ The cycle was to end on a Saturday and I was to start racing again the following Saturday.”
Mercier packed the drugs with him and said he contemplated using them but ultimately decided against it. He attempted the training program anyhow but found himself unable to recover and instead left the sport and moved to Hawaii. In the years that followed, he said he “assumed that anyone that had stayed on as a professional was using some sort of performance-enhancing drug.”
....the article in its entirety is here... http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...rider-says-hamiltons-charges-ring-true_174876
Cheers
blutto
Dr. Maserati
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blutto said:
I read that yesterday - what has that got to do with either my post or Greg LeMond? (The subject of the thread, in case you missed it)
Also you said earlier some article that said something is no longer there - what was the article about and where was it cited - I am pretty sure I can find it for you.
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Race Radio said:
This is the best summary of my recollection of the 80's. (pre-Internet you know.) This should be a sticky. Every few months just delete all the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt propaganda that tries to derail history.
- Jul 4, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
...the article or rather several paragraphs was part of a blog associated with the CSC team...I had cited it in another thread on this forum some time ago but the link does not lead anywhere anymore...it still may be cached somewhere...
...sorry that is the best I can do to help...
Cheers
blutto
blutto said:
still your original quote has nothing at all to do with lemond. mercier is commenting on a period when epo had already taken hold of the peloton and, yes, an uncharged rider could not compete -- like lemond couldn't.
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Dr. Maserati said:
...well its a look into the drug culture that is being discussed here...and it presents several interesting points....
...the first is that steroids were being used way back when and they give a significant boost to performance...
...the second is that drug use was not necessarily a hot topic at the dinner table for pro cyclists...in fact it was surprisingly hush-hush....so the idea everybody in the peloton would over a period of time know what everyone was doing is maybe not quite as true as some would have us believe/or like to believe...
...and the third thing that is interesting is the timing of the Mercier article...here is a guy who didn't buy into the program but still kept his mouth shut...and when he left cycling he still didn't come out with his story...now I'm drawing any particular conclusions from that but it is interesting how such a story could lay fallow for so long...
Cheers
blutto
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Big Doopie said:
...you did note that the issue with Mercier was steroids did you not...and that use or non use of same was enough to allow you compete or not compete...and the use of steroids goes back decades...
...yes EPO changed things but in its day steroids changed things too...and it was still an effective game-changer in 97...do also note that Mercier does not mention EPO( maybe he wasn't high up the food change to warrant it?...maybe it wasn't as prevalent as we think?...maybe it was only one part of a bigger program?)
Cheers
blutto
- May 18, 2009
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blutto,
You keep tossing out 'food for thought' to the GL fanboys in here you will get reported by benotti. I have seen the light, and I now agree distractions such as yours are not welcome in here.
I have done numerous google searches using various combinations of words and I too cannot find any credible source that has first hand knowledge of drug use to explain GL's exploits in the 80's vs his doped competition. That means it didn't happen, so please move along to one of the LA bashing threads.
I am also now convinced a tree doesn't make a noise in the woods when it falls if nobody is there to hear it. This dilemma about the tree noise is one that has plagued me since I was very young. But now I have the answer! Of course it makes no noise....there is nobody credible there to hear it thus it must not! Until they can start interviewing squirrels then this must be the answer.
Just think, the answer to my life question was right before my eyes in the clinic; I can now just disengage my brain and depend on what others say or claim be as the basis of my opinions!!! Of course it helps if an opinion is being formed about an LA enemy. I think I will just come to the clinic for that instead of wasting my time with google.
Your friend,
chrissie
You keep tossing out 'food for thought' to the GL fanboys in here you will get reported by benotti. I have seen the light, and I now agree distractions such as yours are not welcome in here.
I have done numerous google searches using various combinations of words and I too cannot find any credible source that has first hand knowledge of drug use to explain GL's exploits in the 80's vs his doped competition. That means it didn't happen, so please move along to one of the LA bashing threads.
I am also now convinced a tree doesn't make a noise in the woods when it falls if nobody is there to hear it. This dilemma about the tree noise is one that has plagued me since I was very young. But now I have the answer! Of course it makes no noise....there is nobody credible there to hear it thus it must not! Until they can start interviewing squirrels then this must be the answer.
Just think, the answer to my life question was right before my eyes in the clinic; I can now just disengage my brain and depend on what others say or claim be as the basis of my opinions!!! Of course it helps if an opinion is being formed about an LA enemy. I think I will just come to the clinic for that instead of wasting my time with google.
Your friend,
chrissie
Dr. Maserati
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blutto said:
Again - what have any of the 3 posts to do with what I wrote or Greg LeMond?
No idea about the CSC blog/forum, but I posted a document here in The Clinic that showed EPO arrived in (IIRC) Germany in 1988, I will link it for you or PM it, if its of such importance to you.
Thats good to know that after 2 years you have worked out what 'off topic' means.ChrisE said:
Which leads us nicely to reminding you that I am more than happy to read anything that you may have on LeMond or indeed the information you suggest that you have about steroids.
ultimobici said:
Threat of lawsuits by LeMond+ what is to gain by telling the Full Truth about Greg?
LeMond is a contentious litigator, plus.
Also it is not nice to rain on the parade of the LeMond groupies.
An example will be seen,by how whistle blowers,Landis,Scamilton,Walshe,Kimmage will be seen in the future.
- Apr 20, 2009
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hiero2 said:
my reasons for thinking this are as follows. first, while he may have had the purest of motives for getting involved (e.g. love of cycling), he at times looked jealous of the unidoper's success. second, he lost his bicycle business when trek retaliated. third, things that he would have rather kept private that were revealed in confidence were exposed in order to embarrass him.
it might in the long run have been worth the years of hassle if in fact cycling is cleaned up, but we all know how unlikely that outcome is. in my opinion if the only result of all of this is exposing sir-dope-alot, then it wouldn't have been worth it for him.
blutto said:
actually...
not.
it seems very clear to me that the offer for steroids to mercier was to to start him on a program, allow him to train harder, etc...if he played the game with that, at some point they would get him on epo, etc. (didn't they start landis with steroids?).
my sense from what mercier said was not that in 1997 steroids would be enough to put you over the top and enable you to compete, not at all. i think he clearly noted that the european level at the time was superhuman -- and not just because of taking a steroid cycle in training. to think that would be enough is misinformed, plain idiotic or...intentionally mischaracterizing the known situation.
so, you are simply wrong.
to desperately try to connect the mercier story which took place in 1997 between the staff of a known doping team and lemond in the 1980s when there is not a shred of evidence, not one, is -- frankly -- the work of a troll.
consider this the last time i respond to you.
cheers.
blutto said:
Ok, read through the article, interesting but nothing really amazing. Steroids still being used in 1997, not a shocker especially for the lesser riders, wasnt there a staggered pay system at Festina so the lesser guys were not struggling to pay, this could be me just dreaming however.
So UP Postal seemed more private in regards to doping than say Festina or ONCE or RMO or PDM. Put it into a little more context, Mercier was with US postal for one season and wasnt anywhere near the Tour team. I think if he had been at US Postal for longer and a bit higher up the food chain, he might have learned a lot more.
- May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ah yes, the topic.....is LA the greatest fraud per Dave's OP? I assume we are talking sports?
I don't consider a doper beating other dopers to be overly fraudulent. But, GL wasn't specific about whether or not he was talking about sports. I think Milli Vanilli was a greater fraud than LA.
If the subject is LA was the greatest comeback if he wasn't taking PED's....I dunno.
I am a Texas Longhorn fan and I think when they came back and beat USC in the 4th quarter in the 2005 Rose Bowl, that was a pretty awesome comeback. I also think that when Rocky came back and avenged his loss to Clubber Lang in Rocky III was a pretty good comeback as well. Rocky looked pretty muscled up so he could've been roided up, though, and I am not sure how thorough PED testing is in college sports. So, you could lump them in with Milli Vanilli.
Has anybody credible come forward and commented on Rocky or UT? Maybe we should get Kimmage's take.
Also note that according to Willy Voet, the only Festina guys not lining up for the daily doses of EPO were the younger guys/neo-pros like Bassons, Halgand, Lefevre. Yet the only one he named as being clean was Basson's. What were the rest taking?
Voet also I think said that Virenque did not dope in his first year but had his head stuck in everything asking questions and that then team-mate Marc Madiot said that Virenque would become a super charger.
Apparently Festina only had an organised EPO programme from the beginning of 2004 onwards. Other reports suggest that the other French teams like Castorama and Gan only switched to EPO at the end of 1994.
In regards to another French rider Nicolas Aubier who turned pro with GAN in 93, he says nobody suggested for him to take drugs in his first year as a pro even though he knew it was going on. He said the first approach always came from the rider. He says he never took blood doping products but did dabble in corti-costeroids.
Voet also I think said that Virenque did not dope in his first year but had his head stuck in everything asking questions and that then team-mate Marc Madiot said that Virenque would become a super charger.
Apparently Festina only had an organised EPO programme from the beginning of 2004 onwards. Other reports suggest that the other French teams like Castorama and Gan only switched to EPO at the end of 1994.
In regards to another French rider Nicolas Aubier who turned pro with GAN in 93, he says nobody suggested for him to take drugs in his first year as a pro even though he knew it was going on. He said the first approach always came from the rider. He says he never took blood doping products but did dabble in corti-costeroids.
Dr. Maserati
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Ya Greg was talking about sports:ChrisE said:
I don't know who the Longhorns are (apologies) and it sound like it was a one off, while Armstrong has made himself a global brand (yes, bigger than Rocky, even if Rocky III surpasses 2.0) and the fraud has continued for over a decade and he is still denying it.
At least Milli Vanilli could mime and dance.
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Perhaps one of the best parts of the downfall will be the extent of smear campaign against Greg will finally be exposed.
- May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
You know, this ****es me off. Here is what DQ wrote in the OP:
Now I see he didn't post the whole GL quote and I ended up twisting my brain trying to come up with frauds and comebacks in general.
You GL fanboy guys think it is funny to lure unsuspecting non-GL chamois sniffers into posting off topic, by putting incomplete GL quotes in the OP?
I try to play ball here and this is what I get?
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