Hampsten vs LeMond - 1991 thru 1994

[gillan1969]

Re:

...
And then, the theory about blood doper Hampsten, come on. I dont know if you were around at the time but if Hampsten was blood doping it sure as hell didnt do him any favours...

Are we talking about the same Hampsten? (and no, I wasn't around, but google suffices to see he didn't do bad in GTs)

For the sake of the discussion: you think (a) Hampsten was clean, or you think (b) he was doping but without blood transfusions?

If (a), what makes you think that?
If (b), what makes you think he wasn't transfusing in, say, 1988?

as a start, let's assume

a) that blood doping works (i don't think that is controversial)
b) that, like epo, when a PED/method works it is widely adopted by the pro peloton (again not too controversial)

So, assuming, as I believe you do, that american juniors were blood doping as early 70s to great effect specifically our two friends here...should it not be the case that the whole peloton, indeed all endurance athletes, were blood doping throughout this time?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
So, assuming, as I believe you do, that american juniors were blood doping as early 70s to great effect specifically our two friends here...

Some thoughts on that here:
viewtopic.php?p=1907797#p1907797
Take from that what you will.

should it not be the case that the whole peloton, indeed all endurance athletes, were blood doping throughout this time?

Short answer: no, obviously not. There are practical things to consider. Example: Lemond could afford a private campervan which he even had brought in from the States. Not all riders could.
Longer answer here:
viewtopic.php?p=1910490#p1910490

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...
And then, the theory about blood doper Hampsten, come on. I dont know if you were around at the time but if Hampsten was blood doping it sure as hell didnt do him any favours...

Are we talking about the same Hampsten? (and no, I wasn't around, but google suffices to see he didn't do bad in GTs)

For the sake of the discussion: you think (a) Hampsten was clean, or you think (b) he was doping but without blood transfusions?

If (a), what makes you think that?
If (b), what makes you think he wasn't transfusing in, say, 1988?

as a start, let's assume

a) that blood doping works (i don't think that is controversial)
b) that, like epo, when a PED/method works it is widely adopted by the pro peloton (again not too controversial)

So, assuming, as I believe you do, that american juniors were blood doping as early 70s to great effect specifically our two friends here...should it not be the case that the whole peloton, indeed all endurance athletes, were blood doping throughout this time?

...blood doping requires a certain amount of fairly sophisticated structure to be applied....be interesting to see exactly how teams had the resources to do something like that...my guess is that level of sophistication did not reach across "the whole peloton" and as a result I think your assumption could well be wrong...

...I also think that the assumption that ideas are somehow evenly distributed across the peloton to not be correct....at the very least it would seem that if one were to enjoy a performance advantage one would not share it with your competitors...

...so we can say there was a good possibility blood doping was used but to talk about any broadband ubiquity is just speculation....

Cheers

 

[sniper]

^good post.

It's interesting to note that Hampsten was on Eddie B's national team in the early 80s and a common resident of the Olympic Training Centre in Colorado in that same period.
(discussed here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.bicycles.racing/wPSx3GciXwY/XIFMU72CqqcJ)
There is a photo in Eddie's B's book of a young Andy Hampsten on an indoor trainer there in 1982.
In that period (run-up to the 84 Games), USOC facilitated PED experimentation and internal testing.
(viewtopic.php?p=1907173#p1907173)

 

[sniper]

Re:

The more i'm reading about American teams/pros in the 80s, the more I'm getting a Sky "marginal gains"-avant la lettre taste in my mouth, the message being "we had better skills and better equipment allowing us to beat those dopers who didn't care about training and technology".
Here's just one of many examples, on how Andy Hampsten got the better of all those green rookie Europeans in 1988:

Andy Hampsten, the only Americna to win the Giro D'Italia, learned descending skills from 3-times TdF Champion Greg Lemond and Polish coach Eddie Borysewicz. Borysewicz also taught Hampsten how to crash. The latter training consisted of learning tumbling skills so that he would roll, rather than slide over surfaces, with his hands wrapped around his head to protect from injuries

https://books.google.pl/books?id=y0pKAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=andy+hampsten+eddie+borysewicz&source=bl&ots=fMtnMOlq5T&sig=otr1jbpn3nhWkjUa-U8Di6U4a3M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitxL3_mbvMAhUEDSwKHZ9aDdIQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=andy%20hampsten%20eddie%20borysewicz&f=false

Even the weight argument is there:

Andy Hampsten is the perfect advertisement for weight training. Once described by former national coaching director Eddie Borysewicz as "skinnier than his bike," ...

https://books.google.pl/books?id=3I_t_lF1JUYC&q=andy+hampsten+eddie+borysewicz&dq=andy+hampsten+eddie+borysewicz&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje5YuUn7vMAhWEkiwKHVQnDzkQ6AEIIjAB

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

...
So, assuming, as I believe you do, that american juniors were blood doping as early 70s to great effect specifically our two friends here...

Some thoughts on that here:
viewtopic.php?p=1907797#p1907797
Take from that what you will.

should it not be the case that the whole peloton, indeed all endurance athletes, were blood doping throughout this time?

Short answer: no, obviously not. There are practical things to consider. Example: Lemond could afford a private campervan which he even had brought in from the States. Not all riders could.
Longer answer here:
viewtopic.php?p=1910490#p1910490

so to get performance gains of lets say 10% a team manager is not going to spend say 2% of team budget on a campervan...or a rider is no going to spend 5% of his salary?

 

[sniper]

See blutto's post for a more eloquent take on it.

btw, maybe it's a good idea to open a thread about blood boosting in the 70s/80s (with a focus on cycling, obviously, and particularly on GTs/stage races). I'll be happy to contribute to it.

 

[sniper]

The funny thing about Andy Hampsten is that he was trained by Eddie B from at least 1982 (maybe earlier) to at least 1984. In the [US cycling scene] thread there is a precious testimony from Inga Thompson, which tells you that even those who didn't transfuse in 84 knew it was happening. Basically you would have to have had your head stuck really deep in the sand if you didn't know it was happening.
And if due to some miracle Hampsten hadn't yet heard about the blood boosting in 82-84, he would've either read about it in the newspapers or he'd have heard something about it from one of his teammates. After all, post-84, he trained, rode, and shared hotels with several of the exposed blood dopers.

Yet here he is, anno 2012, not even acknowledging that it was happening in the 80s:

According to Andy Hampsten, a cyclist who raced in the 1980s and ’90s, riders were only using amphetamines and anabolics, and both had drawbacks. “Amphetamines made riders stupid … Anabolics made people bloated.” http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/08/lance-armstrong-s-teammate-tells-all-the-secret-race-by-tyler-hamilton.html

And from the same link:

“EPO changed everything,” he said. It boosted a rider’s red-blood cells so they could carry more oxygen, leading to greater endurance.

Didn't blood transfusions have roughly the same effect, Andy?

As John said earlier

...
There's a thing called revisionist history and then there's something called alternate history.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...
So, assuming, as I believe you do, that american juniors were blood doping as early 70s to great effect specifically our two friends here...

Some thoughts on that here:
viewtopic.php?p=1907797#p1907797
Take from that what you will.

should it not be the case that the whole peloton, indeed all endurance athletes, were blood doping throughout this time?

Short answer: no, obviously not. There are practical things to consider. Example: Lemond could afford a private campervan which he even had brought in from the States. Not all riders could.
Longer answer here:
viewtopic.php?p=1910490#p1910490

so to get performance gains of lets say 10% a team manager is not going to spend say 2% of team budget on a campervan...or a rider is no going to spend 5% of his salary?

....the campervan, last I checked, would definitely not contribute a 10% performance gain ( unless of course you were moto-pacing behind it ) but a blood doping program which more likely would do that, and that, given the need for medical help to properly function, would be fairly expensive...

Cheers

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

The more i'm reading about American teams/pros in the 80s, the more I'm getting a Sky "marginal gains"-avant la lettre taste in my mouth, the message being "we had better skills and better equipment allowing us to beat those dopers who didn't care about training and technology".
...

Hampsten, teammate of several of the LA 84 blooddopers, teammate of riders popped for regular PEDs such as Alexi Grewal, Steve Hegg, and Sean Yates.
Hampsten, working with Eddie B from 82 to 84; from then on trained and doctored by a certain Max Testa.
Hampsten 1992: winner Tour de Romandie, 5th Giro, 4th TdF.
Hampsten, clean american beating dirty europeans:

“Before EPO,” the 1988 Giro d’Italia champion Andy Hampsten told me, “we knew we were always racing against guys on drugs, but I don’t think those drugs gave them more of an advantage than the advantage we had knowing they’re gonna come crashing down. We didn’t lose energy worrying about what other people were doing; we just focused on ourselves, and we didn’t need to win every race.”

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/09/tuesdays-with-wilcockson-doping-on-my-mind-part-ii/

 

[sniper]

Re:

From an old thread on the 84 olympics scandal:
viewtopic.php?p=728350#p728350

Everyone knew [about the blood doping]

Well, everyone except Andy.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

...
So, assuming, as I believe you do, that american juniors were blood doping as early 70s to great effect specifically our two friends here...

Some thoughts on that here:
viewtopic.php?p=1907797#p1907797
Take from that what you will.

should it not be the case that the whole peloton, indeed all endurance athletes, were blood doping throughout this time?

Short answer: no, obviously not. There are practical things to consider. Example: Lemond could afford a private campervan which he even had brought in from the States. Not all riders could.
Longer answer here:
viewtopic.php?p=1910490#p1910490

so to get performance gains of lets say 10% a team manager is not going to spend say 2% of team budget on a campervan...or a rider is no going to spend 5% of his salary?

....the campervan, last I checked, would definitely not contribute a 10% performance gain ( unless of course you were moto-pacing behind it ) but a blood doping program which more likely would do that, and that, given the need for medical help to properly function, would be fairly expensive...

Cheers

Sniper was using the cost of a campervan as a disincentive to blood dope. I am merely suggesting that for the gains you get from blood doping it would be a small price to pay...I cannot imagine why every team leader...and key domestiques were therefore not doing it based on Snipers allegations re Hampsten and Lemond

as per your earlier points...I don't think they were, which might therefore cast doubts on snipers conclusions

 

[sniper]

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
the wider point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

The more i'm reading about American teams/pros in the 80s, the more I'm getting a Sky "marginal gains"-avant la lettre taste in my mouth, the message being "we had better skills and better equipment allowing us to beat those dopers who didn't care about training and technology".

I don't see where any of the riders we're speaking about made that claim ("marginal gains") but that's beyond the point.

The point being : in those days (the 80's), those weren't "marginal gains".
-The aero tri bars were hardly a marginal gain.
-Urs Zimmermann lost the 1986 TDF due, in part, to very poor descending skills in Col de la Croix de Fer (30+km)
-Nutrition was almost non existing, based on beliefs from decades earlier

Just to name a few...

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Just to illustrate how progress, in those days, was no "marginal gain".

In this picture, can you guess why Kelly was caught by Hinault in a TDF ITT ?

http://www.francetvsport.fr/les-temps-changent-9910

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
a bit lame to attack the wider point on the basis of an arguably unlucky example.
the point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

its not just the cost of a campervan...I'm making it up but lemond raced...i don't have the time to trawl through t'internet for his race program but from memory certainly before the shooting (82-86) he raced regularly and consistently at the level of a GT winner...that to me doesn't tally with blood doping...if he was he was caning it (which he would need to be doing to be so consistently good) I would doubt he could hide that from others...and if he couldn't hide it from others then others would be doing it as the results would speak for themselves...

as for hampsten...he may not have mentioned it because it was done in isolated cases and not very successfully and so it just wasn't on his radar
#
its not as though people didn't know about it...we knew about the olympics we knew about moser...i just think the level of sophistication was such that it was as likely to fail as it was to succeed and so not worth the hassle for most...or would be used for one off events e.g.hour record, 800m

 

[blutto]

Re:

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
the wider point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

...actually the campervan is a great example...lets say a team had a blood doping program but it doesn't what that news broadcast one would think it not prudent to do the transfusing in the main lobby of the hotel, much better to do it in the relative privacy of a hotel room...now if for arguments sake you were on a drug program that included blood doping on a team whose directorship is firmly against all doping it would require a private space in which to operate the program away from the team, like say a camper...it also reduces the number of loose ends if and when denial is required ( read....want to keep a secret, keep it in house...)

....just a thought...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
a bit lame to attack the wider point on the basis of an arguably unlucky example.
the point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

its not just the cost of a campervan...I'm making it up but lemond raced...i don't have the time to trawl through t'internet for his race program but from memory certainly before the shooting (82-86) he raced regularly and consistently at the level of a GT winner...that to me doesn't tally with blood doping...if he was he was caning it (which he would need to be doing to be so consistently good) I would doubt he could hide that from others...and if he couldn't hide it from others then others would be doing it as the results would speak for themselves...

as for hampsten...he may not have mentioned it because it was done in isolated cases and not very successfully and so it just wasn't on his radar
#
its not as though people didn't know about it...we knew about the olympics we knew about moser...i just think the level of sophistication was such that it was as likely to fail as it was to succeed and so not worth the hassle for most...or would be used for one off events e.g.hour record, 800m

...its kinda funny but that is the image we have of him don't we ....you know, one of the true greats...the rider with the best numbers....probably the best that ever rode numbers ....but if you actually look at his record you don't see complete dominance ( in fact he is not even a dominant time trial specialist where his numbers should really shine ), you see a good rider that has blips of superior riding....

...so no, have to disagree with you on the consistency and regularly points...

Cheers

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
a bit lame to attack the wider point on the basis of an arguably unlucky example.
the point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

its not just the cost of a campervan...I'm making it up but lemond raced...i don't have the time to trawl through t'internet for his race program but from memory certainly before the shooting (82-86) he raced regularly and consistently at the level of a GT winner...that to me doesn't tally with blood doping...if he was he was caning it (which he would need to be doing to be so consistently good) I would doubt he could hide that from others...and if he couldn't hide it from others then others would be doing it as the results would speak for themselves...

as for hampsten...he may not have mentioned it because it was done in isolated cases and not very successfully and so it just wasn't on his radar
#
its not as though people didn't know about it...we knew about the olympics we knew about moser...i just think the level of sophistication was such that it was as likely to fail as it was to succeed and so not worth the hassle for most...or would be used for one off events e.g.hour record, 800m

...its kinda funny but that is the image we have of him don't we ....you know, one of the true greats...the rider with the best numbers....probably the best that ever rode numbers ....but if you actually look at his record you don't see complete dominance ( in fact he is not even a dominant time trial specialist where his numbers should really shine ), you see a good rider that has blips of superior riding....

...so no, have to disagree with you on the consistency and regularly points...

Cheers

not really an 'image'...i remember it...and he was up there...but then that's what GT winners used to be...up there in other races...I say up there as in not necessarily winning but being capable of being at the finale

it's only in today's world that riders are either super dominant or in Tenerife

and why would he be super dominant...he had fignon, hinault, anderson, kelly, roche, delgado, simon etc etc to race

there were a larger number of potential winners and racing was more unpredictable

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
the wider point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

...actually the campervan is a great example...lets say a team had a blood doping program but it doesn't what that news broadcast one would think it not prudent to do the transfusing in the main lobby of the hotel, much better to do it in the relative privacy of a hotel room...now if for arguments sake you were on a drug program that included blood doping on a team whose directorship is firmly against all doping it would require a private space in which to operate the program away from the team, like say a camper...it also reduces the number of loose ends if and when denial is required ( read....want to keep a secret, keep it in house...)

....just a thought...

Cheers

agreed.
and it's not about *proving* that this happened.
it's about acknowledging the very possibility.

Like with Lance and so many other dopers: hardly ever do we get to see the complete picture, the complete program in detail. Even with Lance, we keep guessing about so many details of his program: when did he start EPO?, how could he transform if he was already on EPO prior to 1999?, why did he go backwards in 2010?, did he use AICAR in 2009?, etc. We simply have to admit that there are gaps in our knowledge. But none of that has any bearing on the simple fact that he doped.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I never knew or picked up on that information about the campervan. I have to admit that after 1989 I was unable to keep up with cycling via the television. I had to read short back page results and even then they would not always show the GC and only the stage winner. You know I should file a lawsuit against the US gubment for not allowing me to keep up with cycling while involved with Desert Storm and Desert Shield. They robbed my youth!

What would a campervan provide? This was a private campervan correct, and that would allow some personal freedoms such as freeballing and such. Well for me anyway. Maybe not LeMond. But seriously What was the support like back in those days? Teams had their own buses like in the instance of USPS? It was rumored they used it as a distribution site correct?
They had team doctors back then also correct or not? Did the doctor visit LeMond in the van or what? Not so much coverage back in those days compared to what we have now.
Seems like some speculation on our parts to know what really went on behind the campervan curtains.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
a bit lame to attack the wider point on the basis of an arguably unlucky example.
the point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

its not just the cost of a campervan...I'm making it up but lemond raced...i don't have the time to trawl through t'internet for his race program but from memory certainly before the shooting (82-86) he raced regularly and consistently at the level of a GT winner...that to me doesn't tally with blood doping...if he was he was caning it (which he would need to be doing to be so consistently good) I would doubt he could hide that from others...and if he couldn't hide it from others then others would be doing it as the results would speak for themselves...

as for hampsten...he may not have mentioned it because it was done in isolated cases and not very successfully and so it just wasn't on his radar
#
its not as though people didn't know about it...we knew about the olympics we knew about moser...i just think the level of sophistication was such that it was as likely to fail as it was to succeed and so not worth the hassle for most...or would be used for one off events e.g.hour record, 800m

...its kinda funny but that is the image we have of him don't we ....you know, one of the true greats...the rider with the best numbers....probably the best that ever rode numbers ....but if you actually look at his record you don't see complete dominance ( in fact he is not even a dominant time trial specialist where his numbers should really shine ), you see a good rider that has blips of superior riding....

...so no, have to disagree with you on the consistency and regularly points...

Cheers

not really an 'image'...i remember it...and he was up there...but then that's what GT winners used to be...up there in other races...I say up there as in not necessarily winning but being capable of being at the finale

it's only in today's world that riders are either super dominant or in Tenerife

and why would he be super dominant...he had fignon, hinault, anderson, kelly, roche, delgado, simon etc etc to race

there were a larger number of potential winners and racing was more unpredictable

....funny but I was "there" during that period and I don't remember anything like that and the facts back me up on that....LeMond was nowhere close to Merkx or even Hinault, who btw he called the best he had personally seen...I mean did he ever do anything absolutely unbelievable or spectacular...no...he and some aero bars of iffy legality made a splash once and the result played real good to the English speakers audience...and his rising to the occasion for World Championships....but apart from that ?....the Merikan with the most TDF wins ?...

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Where those aero bars legal or not? I remember the limited coverage here in the USA and I remember a cycling friend of mine mentioning that it was illegal when we watched the time trial. He was pissed but me not so much as I was rooting for the Merikan to beat these nasty Euro's in cycling.

Hampsten was fun to watch for me as I thought of him as a more interesting character. All this talk about Hampsten has me nostalgic for the 7-eleven team.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Where those aero bars legal or not? I remember the limited coverage here in the USA and I remember a cycling friend of mine mentioning that it was illegal when we watched the time trial. He was pissed but me not so much as I was rooting for the Merikan to beat these nasty Euro's in cycling.

Hampsten was fun to watch for me as I thought of him as a more interesting character. All this talk about Hampsten has me nostalgic for the 7-eleven team.

i just wanna slurpee

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

the campervan was arguably not the best example.
but as i said it was just that, an example.
a bit lame to attack the wider point on the basis of an arguably unlucky example.
the point stands with or without campervan.

and do tell why hampsten ignores blood doping altogether as if it didn't exist.
in spite of his training stints with Eddie B at the OTC, him being teammates with practically all exposed blooddopers, some at the national team, others at 7-eleven.
I can think of a rather plausible reason why he would pretend it didn't exist.

its not just the cost of a campervan...I'm making it up but lemond raced...i don't have the time to trawl through t'internet for his race program but from memory certainly before the shooting (82-86) he raced regularly and consistently at the level of a GT winner...that to me doesn't tally with blood doping...if he was he was caning it (which he would need to be doing to be so consistently good) I would doubt he could hide that from others...and if he couldn't hide it from others then others would be doing it as the results would speak for themselves...

as for hampsten...he may not have mentioned it because it was done in isolated cases and not very successfully and so it just wasn't on his radar
#
its not as though people didn't know about it...we knew about the olympics we knew about moser...i just think the level of sophistication was such that it was as likely to fail as it was to succeed and so not worth the hassle for most...or would be used for one off events e.g.hour record, 800m

...its kinda funny but that is the image we have of him don't we ....you know, one of the true greats...the rider with the best numbers....probably the best that ever rode numbers ....but if you actually look at his record you don't see complete dominance ( in fact he is not even a dominant time trial specialist where his numbers should really shine ), you see a good rider that has blips of superior riding....

...so no, have to disagree with you on the consistency and regularly points...

Cheers

not really an 'image'...i remember it...and he was up there...but then that's what GT winners used to be...up there in other races...I say up there as in not necessarily winning but being capable of being at the finale

it's only in today's world that riders are either super dominant or in Tenerife

and why would he be super dominant...he had fignon, hinault, anderson, kelly, roche, delgado, simon etc etc to race

there were a larger number of potential winners and racing was more unpredictable

....funny but I was "there" during that period and I don't remember anything like that and the facts back me up on that....LeMond was nowhere close to Merkx or even Hinault, who btw he called the best he had personally seen...I mean did he ever do anything absolutely unbelievable or spectacular...no...he and some aero bars of iffy legality made a splash once and the result played real good to the English speakers audience...and his rising to the occasion for World Championships....but apart from that ?....the Merikan with the most TDF wins ?...

Cheers

I have never claimed he did anything absolutely unbelievable...however i think his results show his class as a rider..so...aprat from that...here before he was shot...

1981 - RENAULT-ELF-GITANE
1er de la Coors Classic
- 1er de la 1ère étape
- 1er de la 7ème étape
3ème du Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
- 5ème de la 5ème étape
- 5ème de la 7ème étape
3ème du Tour du Tarn
- 5ème de la 3ème étape
5ème du Trophée des Grimpeurs
7ème du Circuit de la Sarthe
9ème du Tour de l'Oise
- 1er de la 2ème étape
- 2ème du classement par points
11ème du Critérium National
18ème du G.P Mauléons-Moulins
47ème du Championnat du Monde
54ème du Tour de Corse
112ème de Gand-Wevelgem

1982 - RENAULT-GITANE
1er du Tour de l'Avenir
- 1er de la 4ème étape
- 1er de la 5ème étape
- 1er de la 8ème étape
- 3ème de la 10ème étape
- 3ème du classement par points
- 5ème de la 3ème étape
2ème du Championnat du Monde
2ème du Tour Méditerranéen
- 4ème de la 4ème étape
3ème du Tour de Corse
- 3ème de la 3ème étape
- 5ème de la 2ème étape
3ème de Tirreno-Adriatico
- 1er de la 3ème étape
- 5ème de la 5ème étape
3ème du G.P de Rennes
12ème de Gand-Wevelgem
13ème du Tour du Luxembourg
15ème du Critérium National
- 5ème du contre-la-montre
17ème de Milan-San Remo
23ème du Tour de l'Aude
35ème de Paris-Bruxelles
Participe au G.P Eddy Merckx
- 7ème de la course aux points
- 12ème de la course derrière derny

1983 - RENAULT
Champion du Monde
1er du Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
- 1er de la 1ère étape
- 1er de la 5ème étape
- 1er de la 7ème étape (b)
- 4ème de la 6ème étape
- 5ème du prologue
- 5ème de la 4ème étape
1er du Critérium des As à Genève
Lauréat du Super Prestige Pernod
2ème du Giro di Lombardia
2ème du G.P des Nations
2ème à Hoevelaken
2ème à Cluses
3ème à Schijndel
3ème à Valkenburg
3ème à Eindhoven
4ème du Tour de Suisse
- 2ème de la 1ère étape
- 2ème de la 3ème étape
- 3ème de la 4ème étape
- 3ème de la 7ème étape
- 5ème du prologue
- 5ème de la 2ème étape
4ème de Blois-Chaville
8ème du Trofeo Baracchi avec Pascal Poisson
10ème de la Flèche Wallonne
10ème de Tirreno-Adriatico
12ème de Paris-Bruxelles
12ème de Gand-Wevelgem
30ème de Milan-San Remo
31ème du Ronde van Nederland
- 3ème de la 1ère étape (a)
- 5ème de la 2ème étape
78ème de Liège-Bastogne-Liège
Participe au Tour Méditerranéen
- 1er de la 1ère étape
Participe au Giro di Sardegna
- 5ème de la 4ème étape
Participe au G.P Eddy Merckx
- 6ème de la course derrière derny
Abandon a la Vuelta a España (ab.17°)
- 2ème de la 15ème étape (a)
- 4ème de la 12ème étape
Abandon au Tour du Limousin (ab.2°)

1984 - RENAULT
2ème à Tiel
3ème du Tour de France
- 1er du classement des jeunes
- 3ème de la 18ème étape
- 4ème de la 22ème étape
- 6ème de la 17ème étape
- 8ème de la 15ème étape
- 8ème de la 19ème étape
- 9ème du prologue
- 9ème de la 1ère étape
- 10ème de la 7ème étape
3ème de Liège-Bastogne-Liège
3ème du Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
- 1er de la 7ème étape (b)
- 3ème de la 5ème étape
3ème à Emmen
3ème à Kampen
5ème de Tirreno-Adriatico
- 2ème de la 6ème étape
- 3ème de la 3ème étape
- 4ème de la 4ème étape
- 4ème de la 5ème étape
5ème à Woerden
7ème du Ronde van Nederland
- 3ème de la 5ème étape
8ème du Critérium National
- 2ème de la course en ligne
- 8ème du contre-la-montre
9ème de Gand-Wevelgem
15ème du Ronde van Vlaanderen
21ème du Tour du Luxembourg
27ème du Championnat du Monde
30ème de la Flèche Wallonne

1985 - LA VIE CLAIRE-WONDER-RADAR
1er de la Coors Classic
- 1er de la 5ème étape
2ème du Championnat du Monde
2ème du Tour de France
- 1er de la 21ème étape
- 2ème du classement par points
- 2ème de la 6ème étape
- 3ème de la 14ème étape
- 4ème de la 8ème étape
- 4ème de la 15ème étape
- 5ème du prologue
- 5ème de la 11ème étape
- 5ème de la 17ème étape
- 6ème de la 18ème étape (b)
- 7ème de la 18ème étape (a)
- 8ème de la 19ème étape
- 10ème de la 12ème étape
2ème de la Vuelta al Pais Vasco
- 2ème de la 2ème étape
- 2ème de la 3ème étape
- 3ème de la 5ème étape (b)
3ème du Giro d'Italia
- 3ème de la 12ème étape
- 4ème de la 22ème étape
- 5ème de la 15ème étape
- 5ème de la 20ème étape
- 6ème de la 4ème étape
- 6ème de la 14ème étape
- 7ème de la 13ème étape
- 8ème de la 8ème étape (b)
- 8ème de la 10ème étape
- 9ème de la 8ème étape (a)
4ème de Paris-Roubaix
4ème de l'Omloop Het Volk
4ème du Critérium National
- 4ème de la course de côte
- 8ème du contre-la-montre
5ème de la Vuelta a Valenciana
- 3ème de la 2ème étape
- 3ème de la 4ème étape
- 4ème de la 1ère étape
6ème du Tour Méditerranéen
- 4ème de la 4ème étape (a)
7ème du Ronde van Vlaanderen
7ème du G.P Eddy Merckx
8ème du Trofeo Baracchi avec Bernard Hinault
17ème de Liège-Bastogne-Liège
18ème de Gand-Wevelgem
47ème de Paris-Bruxelles
Participe à Tirreno-Adriatico
- 2ème de la 4ème étape
- 3ème de la 1ère étape

1986 - LA VIE CLAIRE-WONDER-RADAR
1er du Tour de France
- 1er de la 13ème étape
- 2ème de la 9ème étape
- 2ème de la 18ème étape
- 2ème de la 20ème étape
- 3ème du G.P de la montagne
- 3ème de la 12ème étape
- 3ème de la 17ème étape
- 8ème du prologue
- 8ème de la 19ème étape
1er à Lisieux
1er à Stiphout
2ème de Milan-San Remo
2ème de la Coors Classic
- 1er de la 5ème étape
2ème à Peer
3ème de Paris-Nice
- 4ème de la 2ème étape
- 4ème de la 7ème étape (b)
- 5ème de la 5ème étape
- 5ème de la 7ème étape (a)
3ème du Tour de Suisse
- 1er du classement par points
- 1er du combiné
- 2ème du prologue
- 2ème de la 3ème étape
- 2ème de la 6ème étape
- 3ème de la 1ère étape
- 5ème de la 2ème étape
3ème du Critérium International
- 4ème de la course de côte
- 5ème de la course en ligne
- 6ème du contre-la-montre
4ème du Giro d'Italia
- 1er de la 5ème étape
- 2ème de la 16ème étape
- 4ème de la 9ème étape
- 5ème de la 12ème étape
- 5ème de la 14ème étape
- 7ème de la 11ème étape
- 7ème de la 19ème étape
4ème du Championnat de Zürich
4ème de la Flèche Wallonne
6ème de la Vuelta a Valenciana
- 1er de la 4ème étape
7ème du Championnat du Monde
7ème de l'Etoile de Bessèges
11ème du Ronde van Vlaanderen
14ème de Liège-Bastogne-Liège
19ème de Gand-Wevelgem
30ème de Paris-Roubaix
38ème du Rund um den Henninger Turm
Abandon au Tour d'Irlande/Nissan Classic