Has the wind changed?

[Moose McKnuckles]

Do you race? Do you do it for a living by any chance?

Have you personally been cheated by a doper or are you just posting ethical visions on the net?

If nothing applies to you then please just accept that professional sports is hell. It's getting worse the higher the level.

Many of my friends tried it, most failed, some made it pretty far. I have no clue if they are clean and I don't really care. I know they want to be clean, at least they wanted.

They are humans.

I don't know George but I am sure he'd prefer to ride clean. At least he never pretended to be a role model like Mr. Assstrong does.

Yep, I race, just as a Cat 3. Nothing fancy. Just do it for fun. Have I been cheated by a doper? Who knows? I'd like to think not, but, quite frankly, I don't think many riders have to dope to beat me.

I'm somewhat laughing at "wanted to be clean". What does that even mean? Is there someone out there forcing them to be dirty? You can choose not to become a pro cyclist, or you can choose to be one but on a much smaller scale.

I'm aware that professional sports is full of cheaters. However, I'd also like to make sure that we make strides in ridding the sporting world of these people. Impossible? Perhaps. But removing the cancer that Lance Armstrong and his entourage represent to future of cycling is a monumental step in the right direction.

 

[kurtinsc]

How did George do in the Mountains?

He won the hardest stage of the Tour in 2005

As for Alp d'huez. In 2003 he and Landis pulled at the front most of the stage then cruised up the climb chatting.

Yes he did.

From a break.

Wheel sucking Oscar the WHOLE way.

Peirero is a solid climber... but he's rarely there himself when the pelaton gets down to 20 riders or so... and he clearly was better then Hincapie on the climb in that stage.

I tend to think of that stage as a lot closer to Gerrans and Haussler's GC mountain-stage wins. Great accomplishments, but hardly proof that the rider is a top level climber.

 

[tubularglue]

When people are being questioned by the FDA, no one will know about it.

This will all come out during a Trial.

None of this information will be public. Any forthcoming news will be publicized by either public statement given through the FDA or by the smear campaigns against Floyd.

just my thought process:

If there is a long period of silence, then there is a large ammount of people being interviewed, and a lot of information being reviewed.

I hope it is thorough.

 

[BikeCentric]

I tend to think of that stage as a lot closer to Gerrans and Haussler's GC mountain-stage wins. Great accomplishments, but hardly proof that the rider is a top level climber.

That's the point, Hincapie is a rouleur who doped himself up to the point that he was an excellent mountain domestique who even won a hard mountain stage.

 

[kurtinsc]

That's the point, Hincapie is a rouleur who doped himself up to the point that he was an excellent mountain domestique who even won a hard mountain stage.

Yes... but was he really an excellent mountain domestique... say at the level where he's still there for his leader when there are only 20-30 guys left in the lead group?

Or was he simply an average mountain domestique (even with the dope) that could decimate the pelaton at the base of a climb (like Spartacus does on occasion) but then has to soft-pedal the rest of the way up.

My memories of George don't include him shepharding Lance in elite climbing groups. I remember Floyd Landis and other Discovery/Postal guys doing that... but not George. I either remember him going on a break and dropping back to help Lance on his way up a climb for a bit, or being one of the first of the Discovery/Postal train to do some damage early in a climb then drop off.

Did he in fact go most of the way up the Alpe d'Huez in 2003 before dropping off (and finishing 19 or 20 minutes back)... or was it the normal early push that we see from Spartacus in recent days?


I'm really not questioning that he doped... I assume all riders dope at this point. I'm asking if he was even that great in the mountains when he was fully doped... or merely serviceable.


I don't think guys like Hausler or Gerrans are great climbers (doped or not) simply because they won mountain stages from a break. Winning a mountain stage from a break isn't exactly the same thing as winning from the main group.

 

[theswordsman]

I was actually thinking that same thing. Does McQuaid allow Armstrong and team to ride the Tour doped to the gills (because who would dare try doping after these alleged accusations??)

Hopefully people start wising up and talking before the tour begins.

That's why the recent code clarification by the WADA is so important. Right after the meeting where that occurred, Pierre Bordry of the AFLD sent a request to McQuaid for permission to conduct additional tests on riders before and during the Tour de France. If the UCI doesn't agree (and may they burn in Hell if they don't) by 21 days before the Tour, the WADA can give that authorization. The WADA is already sensing AMA monitors along for every test to make sure all protocols are followed to the letter.

There's a good chance that this year we might actually have checks and balances in place.

Off topic - I read an article that included Lance's medical condition. It said the cut under the eye, which Phil Liggett had said was stitched up on the team bus for some reason, was causing problems and there might be surgery involved. That injury update came from Armstrong's attorney.

So many people who make money out of pro cycling are telling us to forget the past. This even though the AFLD busted some U23 riders last year who without much money, and at 21 years of age, used a number of doping agents in combination that allowed them to pass drug tests. For emphasis, they were busted for possession, ot for a positive test. Then you get the Pro Tour rider who admitted to microdosing recently, and said that if he'd drunk a liter of water between the late night dose and the early morning test, he'd still be riding. Think back to the out of competition test in Nice, France last year where the guy gave Lance time to take a shower before testing.

Luckily this process won't come down to opinion. If people want to cling to, or fear, that Armstrong and others will get away, fine. But I'm confident that there are frozen samples that contain EPO, maybe HGH, and other things that will now show up in tests. It's just a matter of time.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yes... but was he really an excellent mountain domestique... say at the level where he's still there for his leader when there are only 20-30 guys left in the lead group?

Or was he simply an average mountain domestique (even with the dope) that could decimate the pelaton at the base of a climb (like Spartacus does on occasion) but then has to soft-pedal the rest of the way up.

My memories of George don't include him shepharding Lance in elite climbing groups. I remember Floyd Landis and other Discovery/Postal guys doing that... but not George. I either remember him going on a break and dropping back to help Lance on his way up a climb for a bit, or being one of the first of the Discovery/Postal train to do some damage early in a climb then drop off.

Did he in fact go most of the way up the Alpe d'Huez in 2003 before dropping off (and finishing 19 or 20 minutes back)... or was it the normal early push that we see from Spartacus in recent days?


I'm really not questioning that he doped... I assume all riders dope at this point. I'm asking if he was even that great in the mountains when he was fully doped... or merely serviceable.

Remind me when Spartacus won a TdF mountain stage, outsprinting a future TdF champion.

Spartacus ever considered a team leader at the TdF? No? George was.

Hincapie went well above and beyond what a normal single-day stage racer could do unassisted by one of the most successful doping programmes in the cycling world.

Oh, and by the way, I hope you're not naive enough to think that Spartacus is doing this on Gatorade and Clif blocks.

 

[Mr.38%]

Yep, I race, just as a Cat 3. Nothing fancy. Just do it for fun. Have I been cheated by a doper? Who knows? I'd like to think not, but, quite frankly, I don't think many riders have to dope to beat me.

Cat 1 is funnier and less dangerous. Try to get there! Be smart and you need less than 10/h week incl. racing.

I'm somewhat laughing at "wanted to be clean". What does that even mean? Is there someone out there forcing them to be dirty? You can choose not to become a pro cyclist, or you can choose to be one but on a much smaller scale.

There is a point of no return. Talk to people who are racing for a living.

I'm aware that professional sports is full of cheaters. However, I'd also like to make sure that we make strides in ridding the sporting world of these people. Impossible? Perhaps. But removing the cancer that Lance Armstrong and his entourage represent to future of cycling is a monumental step in the right direction.

The cancer is in all of us. We are cheaters, we a liars, we are human.

 

[Anonymous]

Not another thread I know but…

Noticing the statements that are coming out of Stapleton, Hincapie, Levi, and Vaughters collective mouths this morning is appears the new line is “you cannot judge what happened in the past on now” and “Lance Armstrong doesn’t define the sport today”.

It appears they all know what’s about to come this week. We are going to see detailed evidence if not more information on what happened at USPS and that the members of those teams were involved in. We’ll also get the details on Levi, Lim and Bruyneel.

It appears by complying it gets you off the hook in terms of a doping suspension or criminal punishment.

I have to say its all over for Armstrong and I think thats a good thing for the sport. We can now move on and get back to real cycling.

Hog, I hope you are right...you are always pretty balanced out here...one thing I have been thinking about the last few days was that big insurance payout strongarm got...the one the company fought and armstrong defended...the thing paying him out, if I remember, 7 million for winning highest number of tours? Could have that figure wrong of course as it's been awhile and never gets mentioned. I would imagine that would get the feds even more interested in the sense of fraud...and if true the the ex wife is talking...could be good...but I think you're general reading of recent statements seems to me that folks are very nervous...hope you are correct...

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

There is a point of no return. Talk to people who are racing for a living.

The cancer is in all of us. We are cheaters, we a liars, we are human.

Thanks for the philosophy lesson, but I've never doped or cheated people out of their living. Using one's humanity as an excuse for cheating, stealing, and lying is a sign of moral cowardice. Sorry.

Yeah, I've talked to people who race for a living. The idea is to make the right choice BEFORE you get to the point of no return.

 

[slowoldman]

The cancer is in all of us. We are cheaters, we a liars, we are human.

wrong....it is a choice, pure and simple.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Off topic - I read an article that included Lance's medical condition. It said the cut under the eye, which Phil Liggett had said was stitched up on the team bus for some reason, was causing problems and there might be surgery involved. That injury update came from Armstrong's attorney.

Something struck me. Why not go to hospital? and then I remembered Pantani. Did they not bust Pantani after he had a crash, went to hospital, they took a blood sample and then found that his blood was made up of all sorts of things it shouldn't have. So maybe the Uniballer doesn't want anyone taking any samples of his blood?

 

[Mr.38%]

wrong....it is a choice, pure and simple.

So you never ever lied? You never ever cheated?

Are you clean or just cleaner?

 

[buckwheat]

Cat 1 is funnier and less dangerous. Try to get there! Be smart and you need less than 10/h week incl. racing.


There is a point of no return. Talk to people who are racing for a living.


The cancer is in all of us. We are cheaters, we a liars, we are human.

I do agree that "we've met the enemy and he is us."

When the debtors and tresspassers repent, I'll forgive them.

 

[Boeing]

Isn't this the Mark McGwire defense? 'I'm not here to talk about the past'?

word

I am waiting for the Ryan Leaf defense: "Don't talk to me, knock it off"

 

[slowoldman]

So you never ever lied? You never ever cheated?

Are you clean or just cleaner?

clean as a whistle....I have no respect for people who cheat. It is a choice, you either do it or you don't. I don't.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

So, the argument is, if you're not perfect, you shouldn't hold anyone accountable? If that's the case, what's the point of having laws? It's not as though any of us are perfect, so hey, let anarchy reign.

That's a silly, silly argument.

 

[Anonymous]

Personally, I would give immunity to big george as a fan...George wasnt out there swinging his tongue around like ****ing John the baptist....if only he would talk...and I could forgive him and lots of others...but not Armstrong...HE was the guy who ran other folks...and ran our sport since that day I stood in Paris to watch him cross the line...the guy who ends up on Ophra bull****ting and wearing the cancer shroud and plying money outta people like some fast pedaling jimmy swaggart...

 

[Mr.38%]

Lying and cheating is in our genes. Lies are required for our society to work, read Plato.

Never ever lied or cheated, not even once? Yeah, right!

 

[Anonymous]

Lying and cheating is in our genes. Lies are required for our society to work, read Plato.

Never ever lied or cheated, not even once? Yeah, right!

ummm...you need to read Plato again my friend...Socrates said that yeah, to run things, you need to lie because the herd is so stupid...but you do the good lie for their betterment...but via you and I, Plato and Socrates say, don't lie...and it does not come down to a once or ALWAYS via public image sort of deal...so yeah, lance lied...then man up and drink the hemlock mother****er...THAT is Plato...and that is the real world...

 

[slowoldman]

Lying and cheating is in our genes. Lies are required for our society to work, read Plato.

Never ever lied or cheated, not even once? Yeah, right!

Did I say that? no, reread my answer. I deliberately ignored your straw man. I race clean, perfectly clean. To do otherwise is to cheat, I don't cheat and have no respect for those that CHOOSE to.

 

[Mr.38%]

So, the argument is, if you're not perfect, you shouldn't hold anyone accountable? If that's the case, what's the point of having laws? It's not as though any of us are perfect, so hey, let anarchy reign.

That's a silly, silly argument.

No, it is not. I'm not proclaiming anarchy, still we are all human.

 

[Anonymous]

actually, incest is "in our genes"...so mr 38...is it ok?

 

[Mr.38%]

Did I say that? no, reread my answer. I deliberately ignored your straw man. I race clean, perfectly clean. To do otherwise is to cheat, I don't cheat and have no respect for those that CHOOSE to.

I was not talking about racing. I'm talking about the human inside the racer.

 

[Mr.38%]

actually, incest is "in our genes"...so mr 38...is it ok?

Incest? What's next, Nazis? Religion?