Has the wind changed?

[BroDeal]

Heck, my mother, who knows nothing about cycling, called me up over the weekend and said "this McQuaid guy seems to be corrupt, why would he not just say "we'll look into Landis' claims," the fact that he attacks a whistleblower immediately is disturbing."

I talked to my father over the weekend, and he asked my what I thought about the Landis thing. His first reaction was that Landis was throwing mud on everyone else to make himself look better. It did not take much explaining doping in the sport to completely change his take on Landis.

This leads me to believe that a good newspaper or magazine article that delves into the sordid underbelly of the sport would change a lot of minds. Few people will read something like "From Lance to Landis", but a piece in a magazine like Vanity Fair would reach a lot of people and filter out into the popular understanding of the sport.

I wonder if we could be proactive and give a bunch of background material to a writer who writes "popular" investigative journalism.

 

[Race Radio]

I talked to my father over the weekend, and he asked my what I thought about the Landis thing. His first reaction was that Landis was throwing mud on everyone else to make himself look better. It did not take much explaining doping in the sport to completely change his take on Landis.

This leads me to believe that a good newspaper or magazine article that delves into the sordid underbelly of the sport would change a lot of minds. Few people will read something like "From Lance to Landis", but a piece in a magazine like Vanity Fair would reach a lot of people and filter out into the popular understanding of the sport.

I wonder if we could be proactive and give a bunch of background material to a writer who writes "popular" investigative journalism.

Don't be surprised if you see this very soon

 

[BroDeal]

Don't be surprised if you see this very soon

Too bad Dominick Dunne died last year. The rich using their money and power to subvert justice was a favorite subject of his.

 

[BikeCentric]

Too bad Dominick Dunne died last year. The rich using their money and power to subvert justice was a favorite subject of his.

You know Matt Taibbi at Rolling Stone might be interested in this. He is a big NFL fan and loves to write about Wall Street greed screwing over the little guy.

A corrupt system treating young cyclists like race horses might be just up his alley.

Here is his blog:

http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/

 

[python]

I talked to my father over the weekend, and he asked my what I thought about the Landis thing. His first reaction was that Landis was throwing mud on everyone else to make himself look better. It did not take much explaining doping in the sport to completely change his take on Landis.

This leads me to believe that a good newspaper or magazine article that delves into the sordid underbelly of the sport would change a lot of minds. Few people will read something like "From Lance to Landis", but a piece in a magazine like Vanity Fair would reach a lot of people and filter out into the popular understanding of the sport.

I wonder if we could be proactive and give a bunch of background material to a writer who writes "popular" investigative journalism.

i think it already started bro.

i personally don’t follow (and tbh don’t understand any parallels based on) american sports.

a friend sent me an article by a popular baseball writer - he blasted armstrong.

also don’t forget that bonnie ford of espn, wsj, nyt are all american and could hardly be suspected of soft pedaling texas talking points.

by and large, american main stream media deserves credit in this case imo.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I think the Tiger Woods episode laid the groundwork for what's coming to Armstrong. The media smells blood in the water, and it's full of packed red cells.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the Tiger Woods episode laid the groundwork for what's coming to Armstrong. The media smells blood in the water, and it's full of packed red cells.

I agree. We just came off of the public stoning of one guy that everyone saw as a hero, but knew was an a$$hole. Mr Armstrong could be in for a very unpleasant experience.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=macgregor/100524

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Consider the Tiger media frenzy the test-run for "How to take a paper hero and set him on fire".

American media loves to demolish their so-called icons.

Tiger was an appetizer compared to what I feel is coming. Highly entertaining, yet an appetizer non-the-less.

This will be a multi-course meal.

 

[theswordsman]

I just went to check on the Versus Cycling website. The Bruyneel insider or behind the scenes blog or whatever that used to be so prominent is nowhere to be seen. It looks like the only Radio Shack stuff there is paid or sponsored advertising.

Then I headed over to Eurosport UK Cycling. I can't play the video in the U.S. to see if the title is accurate and not a one-off episode, but it says "Planet Armstrong Is Now Planet Chechu". Maybe someone with access could please check that out for us.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/cycling/

 

[nvpacchi]

I think the Tiger Woods episode laid the groundwork for what's coming to Armstrong. The media smells blood in the water, and it's full of packed red cells.

As did the Roethlisberger situation. I know Steelers fans that are in favor of management releasing their quarterback, even if it will set the team back for a few seasons.

 

[BikeCentric]

BALCO scandal was the main groundwork to all of this. It rubbed our faces in the fact that modern pro sports were a little too close to the Roman Collisseum for comfort. Most people I don't think like the idea of being entertained at the expense of the athletes being exploited or abused. On top of that most people remember playing high school sports or what not and are appalled at how distorted everything is at the top.

Maybe even the overblown corporate media hype overshadowing the Games themselves at the most recent Olympics is contributing as well.

But the bottom line is that I do think Hog's thread title is apt and the wind is changing.

 

[Steampunk]

I just went to check on the Versus Cycling website. The Bruyneel insider or behind the scenes blog or whatever that used to be so prominent is nowhere to be seen. It looks like the only Radio Shack stuff there is paid or sponsored advertising.

Then I headed over to Eurosport UK Cycling. I can't play the video in the U.S. to see if the title is accurate and not a one-off episode, but it says "Planet Armstrong Is Now Planet Chechu". Maybe someone with access could please check that out for us.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/cycling/

At the same time, I've been getting a lot more RS banners here at CN this weekend...

 

[fcojavier]

I just went to check on the Versus Cycling website. The Bruyneel insider or behind the scenes blog or whatever that used to be so prominent is nowhere to be seen. It looks like the only Radio Shack stuff there is paid or sponsored advertising.

Then I headed over to Eurosport UK Cycling. I can't play the video in the U.S. to see if the title is accurate and not a one-off episode, but it says "Planet Armstrong Is Now Planet Chechu". Maybe someone with access could please check that out for us.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/cycling/

It goes:
Planet without Armstrong 2 => Planet Chechu (1 min) => Planet Armstrong 2 (last 3 mins)

 

[Steampunk]

Consider the Tiger media frenzy the test-run for "How to take a paper hero and set him on fire".

American media loves to demolish their so-called icons.

Tiger was an appetizer compared to what I feel is coming. Highly entertaining, yet an appetizer non-the-less.

This will be a multi-course meal.

Not sure this is the right analogy. The American media (and populace) also love their redemption stories. That's what makes Tiger so compelling. There is no comeback for Lance. That's where the story dies in the American media.

 

[luckyboy]

Think it [Planet Chechu] was just a jokey thing as LA crashed out. Also, he probably doesn't want to be followed about by cameras right now.

 

[BikeCentric]

Not sure this is the right analogy. The American media (and populace) also love their redemption stories. That's what makes Tiger so compelling. There is no comeback for Lance. That's where the story dies in the American media.

You are ignoring the Puritanical basis of my Country. We absolutely love to tear down and destroy the unrepentant sinner. The media will hammer him untill he goes to Confession publicly and if he does not they will break him.

 

[red_flanders]

Just got off the phone with my friend in Denmark, he and I worked on some Darfur stuff. He is a MD at a hospital. His brother worked for Riis off/on for a few seasons (2000-2002) but later left.

Word in the European cycling community, that he has contacts with, is that this is far more serious than the US media is letting on. UCI, IOC and a WADA lab will get popped. Also, LA is truly a cooked Christmas goose.

I am sure we will all be tuned in here to watch this thing burn like a tire yard. Black smoke and so hot that it can't be put out, just have to let it burn off.

Popped by whom?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Popped by whom?

Are you attempting to imply that these agencies do not fall under any jurisdiction? I suppose each of them would like to think they are similar to the Vatican in that regard but we both know that is not the case.

As it is, the UCI and IOC are Swiss organizations and would probably fall under the purview of the Swiss Federal Office of Police, as they handle the organized crime and money laundering crimes.

For the WADA lab, it was said to be the Spanish lab, so given the sleepy view on doping in Spain, who knows what could come of it, unless WADA can root it out (doubtful). Now, if it is the Swiss WADA lab in Lausanne, then see above.

I think the lesson here is that not anyone is above the law. Not the UCI, IOC, WADA or a guy like Lance.

If you'd like to cite the non-cooperation of the Swiss in exporting Polanski, perhaps Lance can take note and find his way to Roman's chateau where he can be a fugitive with another criminal. That is the only way I see Lance ending up in prison.

 

[red_flanders]

Are you attempting to imply that these agencies do not fall under any jurisdiction? I suppose each of them would like to think they are similar to the Vatican in that regard but we both know that is not the case.

As it is, the UCI and IOC are Swiss organizations and would probably fall under the purview of the Swiss Federal Office of Police, as they handle the organized crime and money laundering crimes.

For the WADA lab, it was said to be the Spanish lab, so given the sleepy view on doping in Spain, who knows what could come of it, unless WADA can root it out (doubtful). Now, if it is the Swiss WADA lab in Lausanne, then see above.

I think the lesson here is that not anyone is above the law. Not the UCI, IOC, WADA or a guy like Lance.

If you'd like to cite the non-cooperation of the Swiss in exporting Polanski, perhaps Lance can take note and find his way to Roman's chateau where he can be a fugitive with another criminal. That is the only way I see Lance ending up in prison.

Easy, big guy. I'm not "attempting to imply" anything. I was asking because yes, jurisdiction seems very muddled at best in this case. I have no stance on the issue, just questions.

If the word is they "will get popped", there must be some idea of who will pop the UCI, IOC and WADA. Sounds like you have some idea who it might be, but I was hopeful from the earlier post that you were hearing about concrete action from a specific group or groups of authorities.

 

[Terminal Cyclist]

Not another thread I know but…

Noticing the statements that are coming out of Stapleton, Hincapie, Levi, and Vaughters collective mouths this morning is appears the new line is “you cannot judge what happened in the past on now” and “Lance Armstrong doesn’t define the sport today”.

It appears they all know what’s about to come this week. We are going to see detailed evidence if not more information on what happened at USPS and that the members of those teams were involved in. We’ll also get the details on Levi, Lim and Bruyneel.

It appears by complying it gets you off the hook in terms of a doping suspension or criminal punishment.

I have to say its all over for Armstrong and I think thats a good thing for the sport. We can now move on and get back to real cycling.

Whilst this is not over my any means, I had precisely the opposite reaction to you when I saw today's news. Contrary to some rumors, the accused riders don't seem to be ready to dish the dirt on Armstrong from their remarks, and there seems to be genuine annoyance across pro-cycling that Landis has decided to make these claims in this way. The cleaner teams and riders genuinely seem to believe the sport have moved on and a 'witch hunt' would be counterproductive and ruin the good work that has been done.

They are all showing a united front against Landis. This is bad news for those that believed that at least some would embrace Landis and turn on Armstrong. So far only Greg Lemond and David Walsh have welcome what Landis has done - the usual suspects.

 

[Neworld]

I have a question for those of you who may have better memory (or better yet, video) of some of Lance's tour wins then me...

How vital was George Hincapie in the mountains?

Did he hang on in the real high mountains into relatively small groups (25 or less)? Or did he do the Cancellera thing and power at the base of a climb then fall off and rest for the next day?

My only real memory of him in the mountains were on breakaways... either waiting up for a leader while on a break and helping them a bit or his one mountain win from a break (where he hung on a wheel for dear life until the very end).

He was definitely climbing better back then compared to where he is now... but at what level did he climb at during his peak? It's hard to tell from just results because postal/discovery guys tended to rest up once they dropped off from Lance to fight another day rather then hold on for a good result.

For example, he was 19 minutes back of the lead on Alpe d'Huez in 2003... but so was Floyd Landis. He was 31 minutes back in 2001. On Ventoux he was 21 minutes back in 2002. Le Grand Bornand in 2004 he was 20 minutes back.

Did he show the ability to hang on better then say... a Jens Voigt or Fabian Cancellera in the mountains even in his best years?

I recently posted this link. Hard to believe GH rode and went on to win this particular stage...you decide.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/?id=stages/tour0515

NW

 

[theswordsman]

It goes:
Planet without Armstrong 2 => Planet Chechu (1 min) => Planet Armstrong 2 (last 3 mins)

Thanks, I was afraid it was too good to be true. Not that they wouldn't have needed a back-up for Chechu as well

 

[red_flanders]

Whilst this is not over my any means, I had precisely the opposite reaction to you when I saw today's news. Contrary to some rumors, the accused riders don't seem to be ready to dish the dirt on Armstrong from their remarks, and there seems to be genuine annoyance across pro-cycling that Landis has decided to make these claims in this way. The cleaner teams and riders genuinely seem to believe the sport have moved on and a 'witch hunt' would be counterproductive and ruin the good work that has been done.

They are all showing a united front against Landis. This is bad news for those that believed that at least some would embrace Landis and turn on Armstrong. So far only Greg Lemond and David Walsh have welcome what Landis has done - the usual suspects.

I find the correlation between those repeating/defending/agreeing with the talking points of the accused and low post count very interesting.

 

[Terminal Cyclist]

I talked to my father over the weekend, and he asked my what I thought about the Landis thing. His first reaction was that Landis was throwing mud on everyone else to make himself look better. It did not take much explaining doping in the sport to completely change his take on Landis.

But surely your father was right the first time? What Landis says is probably mostly true, but is there any doubt he decided to make the claims to make himself look better?

If he'd just admitted to his own doping he would have no supporters at all. He would be admitting to having lied for years and years and played the system and the media - it would only be about how much of a douche Floyd Landis has been. But by throwing in all this other stuff that happened on USPS years before, the story is all about Armstrong instead, and he at least gets a thumbs up from Armstrong's critics.

I don't think there's any doubt he's done it to make himself look better.

 

[Terminal Cyclist]

I find the correlation between those repeating/defending/agreeing with the talking points of the accused and low post count very interesting.

Where is the talking point? Many people seemed to be claiming that everybody was about to turn on Armstrong. We do not know how this will pan out, but my reaction to today's news is the opposite to that. And there is no denying that there seems to be genuine anger from those on the cleaner side of the sport at the way Landis has gone about this and ruined the performances at the ToC.

We can just spin everything to put it in the worst possible light for Armstrong, like the OP has done, or we can have a rational discussion about how the response has really gone down. It's up to you.