How do Lowlanders learn to climb? (Official Mollema/Ten Dam/Belkin thread)

[sniper]

yep geography has nothing to do with producing climbers

not saying I disagree.
just saying, again, that there have been tons of reporters contradicting you whenever another colombian rider flew up the tdf mountains, including this year quintana.
some, what bala verde would call ***, people are indeed saying that quintana's extraclass in the mountains is down to his geographical origins.

 

[IndianCyclist]

the fact that you didn'T understand it, doesn't mean it wasn't a good point.
France has ca. 80 million inhabitants and a lot of mountains.
Netherlands have 16 million inhabitants and no mountains.
Everything else equal, mere chance would predict (much) more French than Dutch success in the mountains.

on a side note: lighten up a bit

Statistically yes if we compare the whole population then it will be more French success. For that one should compare the average climbing times of the French Cyclists vs Average climbing times of Dutch cyclists (Sample size at least 30). But when comparing the pointy end who are essentially outliers when compared to the general population, the validity is highly questionable. For example Eddy Merckx would be an outlier of an outlier. So is Donald Bradman in Cricket whose average is 99.94 whereas the next best is <60.
But the mountains do help to build up more hematocrit which is good for cycling in general but not much with respect to muscle development required for cycling.

 

[Franklin]

not saying I disagree.
just saying, again, that there have been tons of reporters contradicting you whenever another colombian rider flew up the tdf mountains, including this year quintana.
what bala verde would call *** people are saying that quintana's success is down to his geographical origins.

The problem is that probably* the ideal climbers build is "Froomesque" => Tall yet narrow. Usually mountain people are stocky.

Small people have worse watt/kg as their "useless" organs weigh more in comparison. For example a small person has a relatively bigger head. And that goes for some internal organs as well. So you want a tall guy, but without the shoulders.

For long distance runners this isn't so clearcut as weight means more damage to the knees, which means less able to train etc. etc. So runners are usually small and light. Whereas in cycling it's simply W/KG, in running total weight also plays a role.




*Going from what I remember reading, I have no sources though, so I could be wrong.

 

[Almeisan]

Small people have an advantage at climbing because they have lower body weight. They can absorb more oxygen and pump more blood per kg.

Froome is neither tall or short at 1.85 but he is very thin. So this improves his TT.
Ten Dam is same height I think.
Mollema is quite short at only 1.80m.
Contador is a bit shorter and Quintana is like really tiny at 1.66m.

 

[sniper]

Would UCI pop them so soon after getting a new sponsor? The way the sport is run I doubt it. How many of the big teams have had a rider test positive in recent years?

good point.

Europcar got off their doping program after Rolland was almost caught?

other good point.
these type of clues i think have much more explanatory power than the abstract variable referred to as "talent".
i'm afraid that much of the results we are getting are (still) reflections of the degree of preparation (and the way riders 'respond' to that), rather than reflections of actual talent.
i hope this'll change soon.

 

[Bala Verde]

determine? who used that word?

Sometimes geography obviously correlates with physique (though not always, and not always in a straightforward way).
not sure how you plan to deny that.

And how often does it NOT correlate... that's the question you should be asking. Sometimes it's hot on wednesday's, does that mean that "being hot" correlates with "wednesdays"?

**before anyone gets offended, irony alert should be set to sensitive**

Actually, I wanted to respond to the image as well.

I like it that in an attempt to save your argument you reach for a Hollywood movie. It's a movie. In support of your "working theory." Woody and Wesley are actors... not actual basket ball players...

Even better, with this image you now even start to racialize the entire matter. "White men can't jump" ...

Let's focus on the "meat" of the argument-by-image

Woodley and Wesley are both Americans in that movie (and in real life too!!). Why can Wesley jump higher than Woodley? They are both Americans!?!?! The geographical conditions are more or less identical, but the white man can't jump and the black one, apparently, can... And there are so many more whites in the US! Shouldn't the whites be dominating basketball?

Or does it have something to do with the "blackness", the "African" in Wesley, and the supposed black's "innate physical capabilities"? That's why they (blacks!) are such good runners right?

OMG I just learned that Cancelara can't climb. But, but, he is Swiss!

The geographical conditions in Russia make Russian better chess players; we all now that the conditions in Cote d'Ivoire are detrimental to being good at chess. The conditions in India and China make "those people" excel at math! The soil in India and ****stan is wonderful for cricket, whereas the conditions in New Zealand make them really good at rugby.

We all know that French people don't have cold weather, so they don't have ice to skate on, whereas is in the Netherlands they have lots of ice all the time, so they skate really well while the French suck.

"Blacks" (or if you want to be more specific, Kenyans, or Rwandans, or whatever nationality you want to pick) can't swim (despite their "innate physical capabilities"?), but Australians can, therefore they win all the Olympic medals in swimming.

Chinese and Senegalese can't ride bikes at all, that's why the peloton is dominated by Europeans, and North Americans.

Cubans are crazy good baseball players. Must be the sea breeze in Havana.

but hey I guess you are right, I just saw this movie:

 

[l.Harm]

Another explanation is that in the youth Rabo tend to focuss on watts. That's why a lot of climbers came through (Kruijswijk, Mollema, Gesink).

 

[roundabout]

Kruijswijk was not a climber as an espoir.

Suddenly turned into one as a pro though.

And then forgot how to climb again.

 

[hrotha]

The thing with Colombia is that, if you can't climb, you won't make it far on the road, because, like, every race has climbs. And I'm not talking about pro races here.

Dutch climbers no doubt have less opportunities to shine in their local races, but that's not a factor when they land on a practically professional junior or u23 team that takes them to ride abroad regularly.

 

[l.Harm]

Kruijswijk was not a climber as an espoir.

Suddenly turned into one as a pro though.

And then forgot how to climb again.

Ok didn't know that. But my point was Rabo focusses a lot on that. That's why Gert Jakobs wanted to create a new classics team

 

[Master50]

Boy these discussions deteriorate fast. No one ever heard of the Dutch hills? It is where they train for the mountains and it blows all over the Netherlands. I hear they blow in Belgium too. It has been a reason they are so good in echelons too. Climb into the wind and TT home. makes for good climbing and TTing too.
You can live in the mountains but only ride in the valleys So maybe the mountains have no value to you?

There have been lots of flatland climbers and a few mountain country flatlanders. We are good at what we are good at.

 

[Almeisan]

You have been rabbling about this for 4 pages now and you haven't made a single argument but you are still repeating the same question.

Look, as you don't seem very eloquent, I will make the only argument I can come up with for you. Amateur and youth races will mostly be won by sprinters and riders with big absolute watts. So talents for climbing never win races. So their talent is never discovered.

Solution is simple. You measure their watts and you measure their weight. All that is needed to 'create' a climber.

Have him ride away building his aerobic engine losing flat races. Then measure both and you created a climber.

When building your aerobic engine it doesn't matter if you ride up a hill or not. And if you need resistance to avoid having to go at really high speeds for intensity training, there are many options.

 

[131313]

isn't it obvious that i don't.

It is now.

a general human habit is to ask questions about things you don't know the answer to.
so what part of cycling physiology predicts two dutchmen in the top 5 and just one frenchman in the top 20?

I really don't know of any huge physiological differences among people of different nationalities, particularly when they're all from Europe...

There's no special technique to climbing, it just comes down to w/kg at threshold. I've never met a single person who can't meet or exceed his or her flatland power while riding uphill. I'm sure that person is out there, but it's rare. The only possible advantage is altitude adaptation in really high mountains for Columbians who live at altitude, but that comes with downsides as well (an inability to train at higher power levels due to lack of oxygen).

As to why there are 2 dutch in the top 5 etc, I don't know "why", but I can confidently say that home terrain has nothing to do with it.

 

[Cloxxki]

I'm Dutch.
1m94 tall.
MTB'er, rarely raced under 80kg. Usually well above.
Really tall legs, broad shouders (for a cyclist), thus bad aerodynamics, slow in straight line.

Went to a Riva del Garda training camp. The German hosts (TransAlp veterans) kindly told me they'd wait for me at the summit of some 45 minute road climb. I had cold (well, lukewarm by then0) beers waiting for them at the summit.
Road climbs to me are like fighting headwinds in the countryside. Just a slight tilt in the bike's angles, so you want a steeper seat tube angle and matching fit and you're golden.
I have not climbed much in my life, but found AdH especially boring. Really like a one-hour head wind punishment (heavy bike, no prior training, long run-up so give me a break). With nice recovery in the turns. Anyway, I understood why it's a Dutch mountain now, it's just dead easy to roll up. Crank up the watts and await for the discomfort to end when it does.
Other mountains and gravel ones are fine to me also. Find a "comfortable" wattage and try to not pass out. Easy.

 

[brilleaben]

France does have better climbers than Mollema/Ten Dam, if one has a memory that spans more than two weeks.

 

[hfer07]

Climbing is mostly about fitness/strength-to-weight ratio. No reason why flatlanders cant be gifted in that regard.

In skiing, otoh, skills (and therefore experience) are much more important.

how lowlanders learn to climb: watts are watts.

There's no skill in climbing.

Big engine with low body weight is all you need. You get a big engine by training(and doping) and the body type you either have or not. Then it's matter of being super-lean.

Like someone else said, watts are watts. The biggest talent ever can train to get the most watts/kg ever solely training on 0% gradient roads. Then tell him to cycle up a mountain and he will be no.1.

Pacing used to be a skill, but with HR monitors and power meters it no longer is.

Lets say all your responses are correct.......
Can anyone explains to the OP then how Lowlanders "deal with the body adaptations required to perform during the change in altitude & low oxygen???? do they get that while riding on the flats too???

I recall Chris Carmichael's book on one of his many hilarious explanations for LA's superior climbing skills where he had the nerve to say it was because him being from Texas where flat terrain combined with headwind resistance helped him accustomed his body to ride in the mountains..........

 

[go crazy]

France does have better climbers than Mollema/Ten Dam, if one has a memory that spans more than two weeks.

Perhaps this is a different thread, but why does France seem to disappear once the race gets serious? You may get a guy who gets an anonymous top 10 in a tour now and again, but never anything noteworthy. For a LONG time. It's their race, why can't they develop anyone into a serious contender? Oh, and them fighting year after year for polka dots is kinda embarrassing.

 

[sniper]

Perhaps this is a different thread, but why does France seem to disappear once the race gets serious? You may get a guy who gets an anonymous top 10 in a tour now and again, but never anything noteworthy. For a LONG time. It's their race, why can't they develop anyone into a serious contender? Oh, and them fighting year after year for polka dots is kinda embarrassing.

this basically.

 

[kinggeitje]

Lets say all your responses are correct.......
Can anyone explains to the OP then how Lowlanders "deal with the body adaptations required to perform during the change in altitude & low oxygen???? do they get that while riding on the flats too???

I recall Chris Carmichael's book on one of his many hilarious explanations for LA's superior climbing skills where he had the nerve to say it was because him being from Texas where flat terrain combined with headwind resistance helped him accustomed his body to ride in the mountains..........

As stated a lot is just wattage. But most Dutch riders live a large part of the year in spain or other area's with a lot of height. Also there are a lot of height training camps. And as others have pointed out a lot of france is flat as well and a few hours more or less in a car isn't that much of a difference?
But to counter it, I don't think the Netherlands will have a big chance of producing a climbing wonder. Because we don't have mountains so there isn't some dude who has to cycle 20km trough some steep slopes every day.

Also in Holland there is a large cycling culture. I think 99% of our population rode a bike frequently during some stages of their childhood. Almost everyone between age 12 and 16 rides a bike to school. And a lot of those can keep up with (older) cycle enthousiast on their racing bikes, while just being on regular bikes. While in france most students go with public transportation? So if you look at the active cycling popolution I don't think it would differ much between france and Holland.

Belkin as a team only drove in 1 course opposed to froome and contador who tried to attack on multiple occasions.
Also last year mollema wasn't they GC rider, Gesink was and Mollema was way better then gesink last year but he couldn't show it. So the rise of mollema is not as sudden as it seems to be. I don't know about ten Dam, but probably the same story

 

[131313]

Lets say all your responses are correct.......
Can anyone explains to the OP then how Lowlanders "deal with the body adaptations required to perform during the change in altitude & low oxygen???? do they get that while riding on the flats too???

For the most part they deal with it the same way people that live at high altitude deal with it: a reduction of vo2. Even someone from Tibet is going to have a higher vo2 capacity at sea level than at altitude; acclimatization just helps reduce the loss. Besides, in this Tour they don't even go up that high, so altitude acclimatization isn't much of an issue.

 

[Galic Ho]

Tibetan and Nepalese should be good climbers.

There was barracking on this forum for Team Sherpa a number of years ago.

I personally think it'd be a great idea. A whole team of climbers who all grew up at over 4000m elevation. Pure winning and unadulterated fun there.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Perhaps this is a different thread, but why does France seem to disappear once the race gets serious?

Depending on which parties you ask, you get wildly varying answers. Even in the clinic you'll get different answers. IMHO, one of the reasons is France does not yet have the Pro Team model where the federation is the one ensuring the Pro Team's success.

You may get a guy who gets an anonymous top 10 in a tour now and again, but never anything noteworthy.

Somewhere in the Top-10 is pretty noteworthy.

It's their race, why can't they develop anyone into a serious contender? Oh, and them fighting year after year for polka dots is kinda embarrassing.

Take doping out of the equation and you'll find it's a very difficult thing to do anyway. Put doping into the problem and finding a super-responder and keeping him non-positive is another layer of complexity.

The climber's jersey is hard fought, though not as visible as the GC's leader jersey. It's a respectable honour.

 

[ebandit]

tilt

OMG did you guys not see the cycle trainer on ITV4 advert break during

ventoux stage that tilted to replicate cycling uphill?

there................any flatlander can become an eagle

well? perhaps not fatties like myself

Mark L

 

[Dazed and Confused]

OMG did you guys not see the cycle trainer on ITV4 advert break during

ventoux stage that tilted to replicate cycling uphill?

there................any flatlander can become an eagle

well? perhaps not fatties like myself

Mark L

don't feel left out bandit, we can get you on an executive doping program and soon you will fly.

 

[ebandit]

cheers

don't feel left out bandit, we can get you on an executive doping program and soon you will fly.

cheers! of course i remember big mig

Mark L