how long before Sagan trips the tripwire

[montagna lunga]

you're moronical and about as relevant as Peter Sagan's victory salute.

like I said...sad

 

[hiero2]

He is 22 mate. He has enough hormones in his body to kill a man in his 50s.

Hehe. Don't make me laugh so hard! Every man who is 50 had to live through being 22, WITH all those hormones! Experience speaks.

 

[montagna lunga]

He is 22 mate. He has enough hormones in his body to kill a man in his 50s.

Most cogent reason to have kept this discussion out of "the Clinic"

 

[Caruut]

Not really sure but he had a trial with Quickstep and they didn't think he was good enough. Then Liquigas decided to pick him up

I thought that it was because he didn't speak any English, French or Dutch that QuickStep didn't pick him up. Of course, Lefevre has been around the block enough that I wouldn't put it past him just saying that to make Sagan look less suspicious.

Still, that QS trial came after 2008 (I think), when he won the junior world and European MTB championships, and placed 2nd in the junior CX worlds and junior Paris-Roubaix. That's quite good.

On it being easy - you have to take into account that the climb had an odd profile - there was a very steep section followed by a false flat. He only had to match Cancellara for a short time on the uphill, where he's better than Canc. Also, they had clearly slowed down a fair bit by the finish.

The only data we have for it being easy is that Cancellara didn't win (he'd just been holding off a bunch for 2km and is a worse sprinter anyway), EBH was cooked (he'd just bridged to Canc) and his face didn't look tired enough. Given how easy it is to fake a pain-face, I think if that were the tell-tale sign of doping, then perhaps riders might just fake it.

 

[Caruut]

As an afterthought - does anyone know what his family background is like?

 

[zigmeister]

I think he was brought up by the local sports system and hailed as the next god. Yet his listed power for his winning climb is something I could nearly match :

http://www.srm.de/index.php/us/srm-blog/tour-de-france/727

To me the first thing I find odd about Sagan's file is the 206 watts average.

I've seen some of Greipel's SRM Win's averaging 255+ watts in the Tour of Germany for a flat stage & on the dead flats having to average nearly 400 for the last 10 minutes (probably close to 500 watts normalized). The fact that Sagan is following arguably the strongest 3,000 meter rider in the race uphill for the last 2 minutes going 23 mph up a hill and he only needed to average 493 watts stinks to me of a slope change or a miscalibration. Cancellara can average 500 for an hour for christ's sake!

I'm wondering what Sagan's real power was...

Who cares what Greipel's average was during some other race? You can't take power meter numbers for one guy and correlate them to another guy on a completely different day and race. If the overall pace was slower and not as difficult, plus the downhill sections where you are coasting, etc..so many variables that affect the days average.

What is important in the last few KMs and last 200M that is often used for comparison. 20 second, 2 minute, 5 minute etc.

Anyway:

"493 watts in the last 2 minutes 20 seconds of the race."

"Peter soared up the incline with a 1,236 watt surge to his stage win averaging 970 watts in the final 200 meters."


After that initial uphill climb that was very long, incredible he and two other guys still had that much power the last few hundred meters, particularly Sagan.

 

[sniper]

Liquigas is as dirty as any other team, we know that much. So cleary it's not about whether Sagan dopes or not. It's about what he's on to that (a) keeps him from getting caught and (b) allows him to beat the likes of cancellara. Most seem to agree that sheer talent in this case is a crucial part of the mix.

Below an interview with Corsetti, one of three italian doctors on board the Liquigas squad. One after the other. For instance, according to Corsetti, there is no room for doping in cycling. Ah, so Pellizotti was an accident? And for the sake of convenience, let's ignore the likes of e.g. Da Ros or Pozzato, all ex-Liquigas and involved in doping cases.

Other snippets:

At the end of the past millennium, many cycling teams carried fridges for the conservation of the EPO, but in a total contradiction with the dark times of the sport, the Liquigas-Cannondale team has a small refrigerated truck driving from stage to stage in addition to the travelling laboratory.

“Based on the results of our studies from the 2011 Giro d’Italia, we have done a lot of research in cooperation with polyclinics and universities”, Corsetti explained. “We’ve worked on feeding with the fundamentals of the Mediterranean diet and found products made in Italy that have the active qualities that our athletes need. For example, we’ve established a partnership with a milk producer that provides milk and yoghurts of a high quality and digestibility. It guarantees a percentage of lactose that really helps to detox the system. We also have fruits from Sicily, for example a red juice 100% made of oranges that contain antacid, which works as an anti-oxidant.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/liquigas-cannondale-team-doctor-how-cycling-helps-science

 

[sniper]

Other interesting fact:

Emilio Magni was one of the accused in the doping case following the Giro 2010. Back then he worked for Fassa Bortolo (in fact, the entire Fassa Bortolo team was under suspicion back then, IIRC).
Magni is now one of the three Liquigas doctors. Puts the following Sagan quote in a different daylight:

"The confidence I have in Dr. Roberto Corsetti, in Dr. Emilio Magni and in dottor Antonio Angelucci is very strong.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6...-to-him-were-not-his-words.aspx#ixzz1zUJuCSAL

 

[Caruut]

Other interesting fact:

Emilio Magni was one of the accused in the doping case following the Giro 2010. Back then he worked for Fassa Bortolo. He's now one of the three Liquigas doctors.

Thought if we are to use a Fasso Bortolo doctor as evidence against Sagan, surely that weighs against Cancellara too.

I have no idea how much Sagan is doping. I sort of assume most pros dope about as much as each other. A good performance, on its own, is not enough to start accusing someone of going above and beyond. After all, even if everyone dopes the same amount, somebody is still the best.

 

[sniper]

Thought if we are to use a Fasso Bortolo doctor as evidence against Sagan, surely that weighs against Cancellara too.

I have no idea how much Sagan is doping. I sort of assume most pros dope about as much as each other. A good performance, on its own, is not enough to start accusing someone of going above and beyond. After all, even if everyone dopes the same amount, somebody is still the best.

no arguing with this. fully agree.
If you start looking at profiles of current pro-cycling team doctors, you easily find hugh piles of dirt all over the place and spread out throughout the peloton.

But the worriying part is this: Magni's case tells us that if you're a doctor looking for a job in the pro-peloton, it is still an advantage on your CV if you've been related to one or the other doping case in the past.

 

[montagna lunga]

even if everyone dopes...somebody is still the best.

THAT should be cause for thought, boys

 

[BigBoat]

What is important in the last few KMs and last 200M that is often used for comparison. 20 second, 2 minute, 5 minute etc.

Anyway:

"493 watts in the last 2 minutes 20 seconds of the race."

"Peter soared up the incline with a 1,236 watt surge to his stage win averaging 970 watts in the final 200 meters."


After that initial uphill climb that was very long, incredible he and two other guys still had that much power the last few hundred meters, particularly Sagan.

I guess...it seems a bit low though to me compared to a lot of other power files I've looked at.

I guess I first noticed something peculiar with Tim Duggan's US PRO power file. It seemed his threshold was set at 315 watts which for him is 5 watts per kilo or so. I've seen plenty of cat 1,2 masters 35+, 45+, etc. guys with similar (almost or at those thresholds & average power numbers throughout smaller races.) Heck I've had some numbers close to that. So I take liquigas' power meter slope's with a grain of salt.

I of course do not need to suggest doping as a reason they do not want to reveal their true power numbers, it could be to keep competitors away from having a carrot to look at.

 

[samerics]

This forum is pathetic sometimes. A young talented guy starts to fulfil his promise and he's automatically doping?? Get a grip! Of course there is doping within cycling, but you guys know for sure that everyone is doing it?? Utter nonsense.

 

[BigBoat]

This forum is pathetic sometimes. A young talented guy starts to fulfil his promise and he's automatically doping?? Get a grip! Of course there is doping within cycling, but you guys know for sure that everyone is doing it?? Utter nonsense.

True, there's no way to know that somebody is doping for sure without them exceeding their physiological limits. (unlike Lance he he he).

If there is a god samerics....and he were to reveal the truth to us in an instant....I'd put a few hundred bucks that Sagan atleast uses IGF-1 or something! But that's just a poster's opinion.

 

[karlboss]

Average speed for the last portion close to 40kph, benefit of being behind someone at 40kph, 30%. Sagan's watts 493 multiply by 1.3 = 640 Watts for Cancellara. Now does someone want to try again, why his watts were low or Cancellara looked shattered while Sagan did not?

 

[durianrider]

I saw his eyes today after the stage. Look like he is coming down from a few eccies! lol!

Not long now till Sagan hits the papers for the wrong reasons.

 

[happychappy]

 

[zigmeister]

Average speed for the last portion close to 40kph, benefit of being behind someone at 40kph, 30%. Sagan's watts 493 multiply by 1.3 = 640 Watts for Cancellara. Now does someone want to try again, why his watts were low or Cancellara looked shattered while Sagan did not?

Sagan is 22yrs old and hitting a peak, this isn't an amazing number by any means.

Look at his power numbers, they are right in line with any top talent.

 

[Houndbike]

Sagan is 22yrs old and hitting a peak, this isn't an amazing number by any means.

Look at his power numbers, they are right in line with any top talent.

Phil and Paul reckon he might be the next Merckx.

I wonder if he might be the next Ricco.

 

[zigmeister]

He must be doping - no one not manipulating the oxygen vector could have the composure to demonstrate such elaborate, "showboating," and frankly, disrespectful victory "salutes" after an uphill finish. lol.

Sad you never had that kind of talent eh?

Probably didn't like his latest win move either today right?

I suggest the peloton STFU/HTFU and try to beat him and accumulate the amount of wins he has this year instead of criticizing his finish line moves?? Which, there is a long history of guys winning stages and doing their little thing. He isn't the first. Yet for some reason he is getting much negative feedback for it. I assume it is envy.

At least he changes it up and doesn't keep doing the finger gun shooting thing over and over.

 

[roundabout]

The way he flew up today reminded me of Valverde on one of the first stages in the 2003 Vuelta.

 

[blackcat]

he is phenomenal. I think it is a logical paradox to assume he won therefore. So sorry to Sagan. I concede that error, and thank him for the entertainment...

but, seen too many unlikely performances in this sport, so blame, less the individual, more the sport.

just

WOW

 

[classicomano]

Hardly breaking a sweat, I reckon if he really tried he couldve gapped the peleton by a minute.

 

[wattage]

It's like 2008 and Ricco all over again.

 

[Ferminal]

Ricco was entertaining.