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GuyIncognito said:
My previous post described what happened in the last 10 or so km's - Gerrans was flat out getting back to the reduced peloton after being dropped on the last climb - Gerrans had 2 pieces of luck - Weening's strength in bringing Gerrans back up the peleton and Martin crashing on the last corner - Again that narrative !
yaco said:
You called it a "killer blow" and "smart riding" when it was a blatant example of bad decisions
GuyIncognito said:
Of course it was a smart riding, it was the only way he can win that race. He was lucky, of course, but for a rider like him to win a race like Liege, he needs luck, a lots of it! He was lucky in the first place because of the way the race was ridden, he was lucky to have strong Weening by his side, and finally he was lucky because Martin fell in the last corner, but I actually think he would've won anyway. Had he collaborated with Valverde, he would end up "dead"! Valverde recovers much faster from that kind of efforts than Gerrrans, he would've buried him in the sprint, maybe Kwiatkowski also. The trick is, when a rider wants to win, and he's not the strongest, to force the strongest (Valverde in Liege, Sagan in MSR) to work, to wear himself out. Valverde waited for Gilbert to move, to close Caruso and Martin, but Phil didn't had enough strength, so Bala had no choice but to strike himself. So everything fell in the right place for Gerrans, he had a lot of luck, but I think he played it the only way he could in order to win. There was not one single bad decision from Gerrans in that race!
Mr.White said:
Do you not remember what the gap was? There were 100m to go.
I give up. If we're believing in factual impossibilities, I'm done discussing.
Guess I'll just start believing Tony Martin could've won the Tour last year if he hadn't DNFed the final stage. I think he could've pulled back 3.5 hours on that stage and all logic be damned
Jesus christ, some of the people on here...
Re: Re:
When I read *** like that I wonder why you would rely on the others instead of just smashing it up Cauberg and winning. Super easy race, hadn't touched the pedals yet, wasn't even breathing etc. Do these guys expect the racing to come to them?hrotha said:
GuyIncognito said:
Yeah I remember, the gap was 10m, and there were 200m to go when Martin fell. Caruso was in front of him, yet Gerrans, Bala and Kwiat passed him quite comfortably! That's what I saw.
Now, I'm curious what you saw? Would you tell me what was the gap? 100m maybe? 200? Maybe they were still on St.Nicolas?! I don't know, maybe I didn't watched the right race! Enlighten me please!
And what the f..k Tony Martin has to do with all this?!!! Great analogy! And you're complaining about people on here.. :surprised:
!
Re: Re:
Don't forget that the year before Matthews was caught out going too early.
The thing is, if you've had an easy day out, chances are someone else has too. At least Matthews admits that he should have tried something, these days Gerrans simply regrets that nobody chased.Valv.Piti said:
Don't forget that the year before Matthews was caught out going too early.
Mr.White said:GuyIncognito said:
Yeah I remember, the gap was 10m, and there were 200m to go when Martin fell. Caruso was in front of him, yet Gerrans, Bala and Kwiat passed him quite comfortably! That's what I saw.
Now, I'm curious what you saw? Would you tell me what was the gap? 100m maybe? 200? Maybe they were still on St.Nicolas?! I don't know, maybe I didn't watched the right race! Enlighten me please!
And what the f..k Tony Martin has to do with all this?!!! Great analogy! And you're complaining about people on here.. :surprised:
They passed Caruso who is a weaker finisher than Martin and on the attack since Saint Nicolas in the last 75 meters.
Edit: Martin was roughly 2 seconds ahead of Valverde when he fell
roundabout said:Mr.White said:GuyIncognito said:
Yeah I remember, the gap was 10m, and there were 200m to go when Martin fell. Caruso was in front of him, yet Gerrans, Bala and Kwiat passed him quite comfortably! That's what I saw.
Now, I'm curious what you saw? Would you tell me what was the gap? 100m maybe? 200? Maybe they were still on St.Nicolas?! I don't know, maybe I didn't watched the right race! Enlighten me please!
And what the f..k Tony Martin has to do with all this?!!! Great analogy! And you're complaining about people on here.. :surprised:
They passed Caruso who is a weaker finisher than Martin and on the attack since Saint Nicolas in the last 75 meters.
Edit: Martin was roughly 2 seconds ahead of Valverde when he fell
It could went both ways, I said that my opinion is that Gerrans would've won, it's not a given though... Then came some very stupid Tony Martin analogy
GuyIncognito said:
Dumb luck unless you are talking about a rider you like i suppose. All riders make calculations at the finish when they are chasing someone and how much work they should do or if they should contribute at all. Gerrans wins at MSR and Liege were a success because he won. That is all his team worries about and most of the riders don't care either except whiners like Cancellara. If luck plays a role in a classic it plays an even bigger role in a GT avoiding crashes for three weeks. if Gerrans had worked and lost the sprint to placate some fans how would his team have reacted ? If cycling was a popularity contest then Gerrans would fail but he's paid to win bike races, how he wins doesn't matter to him or his team. And what you describe as an impossible sequence of events is often more common than not. There are always crashes and always someone working harder than the others, there is nothing unique about that. But just because Gerrans was the winner it's seen as something unbelievable.
Why was Raymond Poulidor adored by the French public ? Because he was the eternal loser. He was humble and quiet and not brash like Anquetil. He never gave up and never won a Tour while Anquetil won five. But in Anquetil's opinion Poulidor would have been a winner if he had not been so tactically inept. I have never heard anyone including riders accuse Gerrans of being a poor tactician, if anything I have heard him praised for knowing how to read a race and reacting at the right time. Don't ask Cancellara what he thinks. If some fans want to see him as a talentless wheelsucker or that he should ride with more bravado so be it.
movingtarget said:
Aka "I have no arguments so I will accuse you of hypothetical bias with nothing to back it up"
For the record, puncheurs with a bit of a sprint are my favorite riders. Francesco Gavazzi, Michael Albasini, etc.
But you felt an emotional need to defend Gerrans so with no arguments you resorted to ad hominem.
movingtarget said:
I assume this is aimed at someone else other than me, because that's got nothing to do with what I said.
You're going on about being liked or not which - again - has nothing to do with my point. And then you bring Cancellara being a whining diva into it which, while being an indisputable fact, once again has zero to do with the topic at hand.
To reiterate, my point was:
You said he was smart and dealt "a killer blow". I pointed out he made a bad decision that guaranteed he would lose the race if not for a literal once-in-the-sport's-entire-history stroke of sheer dumb luck.
If I jump in front of a bus and rely on the bus being hit by a meteor to not die, then the meteor actually hits the bus and I live.....I'm not smart. I'm an idiot who got lucky.
Honestly, at the time I thought Martin would be caught even before the crash and I've since seen it about 20 times and still think there's a better than even chance of that. One of those things we'll never know.GuyIncognito said:
6 pages, I'm yet to understand the hate.
I can definitely understand the dispassion. i.e. why few are invested as fanboys. That makes a lot of sense: he's a fairly understated personality, you don't see much of him, he ain't doing hero things on the bike, he ain't got once in a generation physiology, he rides defensively.
How that turns to outright hate - over and above so many other non-descript riders in the bunch.....
Well it seems to me to rest on three things. Either its the corollary of a pre-existing love that he defeated in one of his victorious sprints. Very Freudian in that sense. Cancellera comes to mind here in 2012. Someone's making an argument about Dan Martin.....who frankly, was not winning that LBL even if stayed upright.
The 2nd possibility is a kind of anti-anglo thing which seems to go down a bit in these parts. If he had a cool Italian name + personality, it would be toleration or indifference.
The third is that actually it's all just built up via a kind of bikie forum group think.
I can definitely understand the dispassion. i.e. why few are invested as fanboys. That makes a lot of sense: he's a fairly understated personality, you don't see much of him, he ain't doing hero things on the bike, he ain't got once in a generation physiology, he rides defensively.
How that turns to outright hate - over and above so many other non-descript riders in the bunch.....
Well it seems to me to rest on three things. Either its the corollary of a pre-existing love that he defeated in one of his victorious sprints. Very Freudian in that sense. Cancellera comes to mind here in 2012. Someone's making an argument about Dan Martin.....who frankly, was not winning that LBL even if stayed upright.
The 2nd possibility is a kind of anti-anglo thing which seems to go down a bit in these parts. If he had a cool Italian name + personality, it would be toleration or indifference.
The third is that actually it's all just built up via a kind of bikie forum group think.
Re: Re:
In fact, re-watch 2015 as well. Who's the only person that tries to go with Gilbert on the Cauberg instead of waiting in the group? Matthews, basically turning himself inside out a couple of times to get the wheel back. And once they crest he goes on the front and pulls. If he had pulled a Gerrans that year he'd likely have won but he killed his sprint beforehand. You wouldn't call him an attacking rider - he's certainly no Wellens, Kwia, or Gilbert, but he's not late-era Gerrans either even if you'd like him to be. At least not at this point.
Good points. The anti-anglo thing does exist even if we don't like to talk about it much. You can kind of understand where it comes from, though. Over the years we've lost a bunch of teams from traditional cycling nations like France, Spain, and Italy and gained more Anglo-centric teams with big budgets. It also doesn't help that often the riders from the newer teams tend to race more controlled and less on feel and with less 'panache' than the riders from the traditional nations so they also get connected to less exciting racing.
Well, that kinda confirms my thinking. He's not Gerrans. Regrets not attacking and was attempting to ride to team orders. Re-watch the finale. Who takes the wind and pulls the group back to Valgren and the small group ahead? Matthews. Where is Gerrans? Sitting in the group when it was supposed to be the other way around which would make sense as Bling is the faster bunch sprinter.hrotha said:
In fact, re-watch 2015 as well. Who's the only person that tries to go with Gilbert on the Cauberg instead of waiting in the group? Matthews, basically turning himself inside out a couple of times to get the wheel back. And once they crest he goes on the front and pulls. If he had pulled a Gerrans that year he'd likely have won but he killed his sprint beforehand. You wouldn't call him an attacking rider - he's certainly no Wellens, Kwia, or Gilbert, but he's not late-era Gerrans either even if you'd like him to be. At least not at this point.
The Hegelian said:
Good points. The anti-anglo thing does exist even if we don't like to talk about it much. You can kind of understand where it comes from, though. Over the years we've lost a bunch of teams from traditional cycling nations like France, Spain, and Italy and gained more Anglo-centric teams with big budgets. It also doesn't help that often the riders from the newer teams tend to race more controlled and less on feel and with less 'panache' than the riders from the traditional nations so they also get connected to less exciting racing.
Re:
This!
Sure, his riding style might be a bit underwhelming, but that's no reason to hate someone. The world is full of terrible people, hating someone because you don't like their riding style just seems pointless to me.
Okay, so the races he win tends to have been a bit boring - now the question is of course, were they boring because he won them, or did he win them because they were boring? - but he doesn't actually hurt anybody. Let me take a look at those three examples people love bringing up around here (and let me be honest, I seem to have forgotten a lot of what happened, maybe I just don't see any point in remembering year-old dull races...)
MSR: Nobody got hurt from Gerrans' actions. He didn't push Cancellara and Nibali off their bikes on his way to victory. If he'd done that then I'd understand if people were still pissy about all these years after.
LBL: Again, he didn't cause Dan Martin to crash.
Worlds: Guess the only person he "hurt" here - in the sense of missing the win, which isn't really hurt at all - was himself. So... karma? He didn't pull, even though it would've been the smartest and, surprise surprise, he didn't win.
The Hegelian said:
This!
Sure, his riding style might be a bit underwhelming, but that's no reason to hate someone. The world is full of terrible people, hating someone because you don't like their riding style just seems pointless to me.
Okay, so the races he win tends to have been a bit boring - now the question is of course, were they boring because he won them, or did he win them because they were boring? - but he doesn't actually hurt anybody. Let me take a look at those three examples people love bringing up around here (and let me be honest, I seem to have forgotten a lot of what happened, maybe I just don't see any point in remembering year-old dull races...)
MSR: Nobody got hurt from Gerrans' actions. He didn't push Cancellara and Nibali off their bikes on his way to victory. If he'd done that then I'd understand if people were still pissy about all these years after.
LBL: Again, he didn't cause Dan Martin to crash.
Worlds: Guess the only person he "hurt" here - in the sense of missing the win, which isn't really hurt at all - was himself. So... karma? He didn't pull, even though it would've been the smartest and, surprise surprise, he didn't win.
fans suffered from gerrans' actions and his racing style, it's already more than enough to feel fiery dispassion. fans are rarely lenient to somebody/something that really got hurt them.
Bit sad if you're letting a few boring races overshadow all those other great races to the point where you're still whining about it five years later.
If it's so horrible, just turn off your television/whatever you're watching on, and go out for a ride, clean your house, actually work if you happen to be at work. You aren't being tied to a chair with your eyes forced open.
Dispassion? Sure. Guess you can't feel passionately about every rider, some are simply too non-descript, just... there.
Hate? No. He's just a guy. Besides, why waste so much energy - so much passion - to hate someone? All that energy could've been spent supporting your favourite riders.
If it's so horrible, just turn off your television/whatever you're watching on, and go out for a ride, clean your house, actually work if you happen to be at work. You aren't being tied to a chair with your eyes forced open.
Dispassion? Sure. Guess you can't feel passionately about every rider, some are simply too non-descript, just... there.
Hate? No. He's just a guy. Besides, why waste so much energy - so much passion - to hate someone? All that energy could've been spent supporting your favourite riders.
Re: Re:
Our biology is primed to recognizing people that rig the system - dozens of such experiments exist. Gerrans is perceived by many (except for a number of <Aussie> fans here) to be 'cheating' the system - hence he is generally disliked.
It's not difficult to understand at all.RedheadDane said:
Our biology is primed to recognizing people that rig the system - dozens of such experiments exist. Gerrans is perceived by many (except for a number of <Aussie> fans here) to be 'cheating' the system - hence he is generally disliked.
Well, for me the "system" is all about winning. And as long as you don't blatantly break any rules, by - ya know - pushing people off their bikes, you're not doing anything wrong. At the end of the day, for most riders it doesn't matter if you win in a "cool" way, as long as you win.
I can't believe this needs to be explained, but... no, no one hates Gerrans literally.
And yes, it is legal for him to choose whatever tactics he prefers. This has been pointed out plenty of times. If you don't want to "disrespect" any riders no matter what, that's cool, but you don't need to disrespect other forumers by ignoring the many arguments they're putting forth.
And yes, it is legal for him to choose whatever tactics he prefers. This has been pointed out plenty of times. If you don't want to "disrespect" any riders no matter what, that's cool, but you don't need to disrespect other forumers by ignoring the many arguments they're putting forth.
I'm not ignoring them, I just don't understand them. Why spend so much energy disliking someone? Why act as if it's somehow a personal offence against you if you find a race boring? There are much more important things in life.
And those "many" arguments seem to be the same three race-examples, the most recent of which is two-and-a-half years old. Then there's the extremely silly argument about his squeaky voice. Honestly, I have yet so "see" - well, hear - that.
Not disrespecting a rider "No matter what" is for when he (or she) blatantly cheats, both in clinicey and non-clinicey ways, constantly pushes other riders without being punished - in which case a lot of the disrespect should be given to the race jurys - and badmouths people in interviews. It's for when a rider has done something who should not only logically cause them to be disrespected, but to be thrown out of the sport altogether.
I realise this is probably somewhat biased, as those videos are likely showing the riders and staff from their best side, but the impression I get from the BSPes is that he's a pretty cool (old) guy who's and important, and respected, part of the team. Earlier as someone who'd win races himself, now as someone who'd help the younger riders win races.
And those "many" arguments seem to be the same three race-examples, the most recent of which is two-and-a-half years old. Then there's the extremely silly argument about his squeaky voice. Honestly, I have yet so "see" - well, hear - that.
Not disrespecting a rider "No matter what" is for when he (or she) blatantly cheats, both in clinicey and non-clinicey ways, constantly pushes other riders without being punished - in which case a lot of the disrespect should be given to the race jurys - and badmouths people in interviews. It's for when a rider has done something who should not only logically cause them to be disrespected, but to be thrown out of the sport altogether.
I realise this is probably somewhat biased, as those videos are likely showing the riders and staff from their best side, but the impression I get from the BSPes is that he's a pretty cool (old) guy who's and important, and respected, part of the team. Earlier as someone who'd win races himself, now as someone who'd help the younger riders win races.
Re:
Exactly. I can respect Gerrans' style, but I will always despise it. I don't think RHD is disrespectful though. She just genuinely has a different mindset than most cycling fans, I guess.hrotha said:
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