Italy: "After the storm, the Tsunami."

[D-Queued]

Anybody who thinks Ferrari ever doped anybody is impossibly naive. The man is smart--and well off. He doesn't have to sell dope. He doesn't have to stick the needle into anybody's belly button. I suspect he is merely giving training advice to riders (who may or may not furnish their own dope). I suspect that maybe we'll learn just what that training advice is in the course of this investigation, and it may or may not be criminal, but I doubt that Ferrari works like Fuentes did.

Ferrari also doesn't appear to be physically close enough to his clients to either sell or administer dope to them.

Anyway, Ferrari is a great coach (maybe a genius). He doesn't need piddly dope sales money when his mere advice can make him wealthy. He's got major cachet.

The "Ferrari's going down" talk is wishful thinking only at this point.

So you are saying that Lance pays him $1m+ to watch?

Kinky.

Dave.

 

[jimmypop]

Anybody who thinks Ferrari ever doped anybody is impossibly naive. The man is smart--and well off. He doesn't have to sell dope. He doesn't have to stick the needle into anybody's belly button. I suspect he is merely giving training advice to riders (who may or may not furnish their own dope). I suspect that maybe we'll learn just what that training advice is in the course of this investigation, and it may or may not be criminal, but I doubt that Ferrari works like Fuentes did.

Ferrari also doesn't appear to be physically close enough to his clients to either sell or administer dope to them.

Anyway, Ferrari is a great coach (maybe a genius). He doesn't need piddly dope sales money when his mere advice can make him wealthy. He's got major cachet.

The "Ferrari's going down" talk is wishful thinking only at this point.

The problem with trolling is that it's so easy to step over the line and go... full troll.

You never go full troll.

What you've demonstrated here is that it's easy to discount one's entire post history with a single post that crosses the line.

 

[MarkvW]

ferrari

well..let's see, oh Dr Ferrari just threatened to sue anyone who says he doped riders..but you think he is going to admit he doped LA. Your logic is about as intelligent as denying 1+1 = 2

So you are saying that Lance pays him $1m+ to watch?

Kinky.

Dave.

That isn't too far-fetched. The dope is nothing without expert advice on how to use it. Why wouldn't a person obtain his dope from one source and his training consults from another? All a coach needs to do is "refer" the client to another "trainer."

 

[jimmypop]

That isn't too far-fetched. The dope is nothing without expert advice on how to use it. Why wouldn't a person obtain his dope from one source and his training consults from another? All a coach needs to do is "refer" the client to another "trainer."

Ferrari is most definitely a supplier and a facilitator, even in recent years.

He should have at least watched a few seasons of The Wire.

 

[MarkvW]

groupthink

The problem with trolling is that it's so easy to step over the line and go... full troll.

You never go full troll.

What you've demonstrated here is that it's easy to discount one's entire post history with a single post that crosses the line.

I'm just not buying what the groupthinkers are selling. I appreciate the "discounting." D-Q made a very good point that undercut my argument somewhat. That was useful.

The "(fill in name) is going down!" argument should not go unrebutted when it is only based on speculation. Unless, that is, you want the Clinic to be a synchronized chant.

 

[D-Queued]

I'm just not buying what the groupthinkers are selling. I appreciate the "discounting." D-Q made a very good point that undercut my argument somewhat. That was useful.

The "(fill in name) is going down!" argument should not go unrebutted when it is only based on speculation. Unless, that is, you want the Clinic to be a synchronized chant.

Appreciate that.

Dave.

 

[frenchfry]

Anybody who thinks Ferrari ever doped anybody is impossibly naive. The man is smart--and well off. He doesn't have to sell dope. He doesn't have to stick the needle into anybody's belly button. I suspect he is merely giving training advice to riders (who may or may not furnish their own dope). I suspect that maybe we'll learn just what that training advice is in the course of this investigation, and it may or may not be criminal, but I doubt that Ferrari works like Fuentes did.

Ferrari also doesn't appear to be physically close enough to his clients to either sell or administer dope to them.

Anyway, Ferrari is a great coach (maybe a genius). He doesn't need piddly dope sales money when his mere advice can make him wealthy. He's got major cachet.

The "Ferrari's going down" talk is wishful thinking only at this point.

I think this is the first time I have used the word troll, but this post deserves special mention.

Incredibly naive would apply to anyone who believes Ferrari is just a training program specialist, and family friend to the stars.

Only thing you have right is that Ferrari doesn't operate like Fuentes. Glad you have been following at least a little bit.

Wasn't it Virenque who said that working with Ferrari was like riding with pans up your a$$, everyone would know you were doping. Except for the impossibly naive of course.

 

[MarkvW]

Defamation?

Ferrari is most definitely a supplier and a facilitator, even in recent years.

He should have at least watched a few seasons of The Wire.

Proof of the above has eluded the Italian authorities for years. I just read the CN article where it was found that there were no facts sufficient to support the charges against Ferrari.

You are saying something that is plainly unsupportable. There is no good basis to infer that Ferrari will be convicted of anything--much less sent to prison. There is a big difference between an anonymous poster's defamatory opinion and facts necessary to make a case in court. I'm not talking AT ALL about what Ferrari did or didn't do. I'm talking about his exposure to prosecution.

 

[MarkvW]

Read my OP

I think this is the first time I have used the word troll, but this post deserves special mention.

Incredibly naive would apply to anyone who believes Ferrari is just a training program specialist, and family friend to the stars.

Only thing you have right is that Ferrari doesn't operate like Fuentes. Glad you have been following at least a little bit.

Wasn't it Virenque who said that working with Ferrari was like riding with pans up your a$$, everyone would know you were doping. Except for the impossibly naive of course.

I'm focusing on Ferrari's exposure. I'm arguing that he may not be as vulnerable as some forum posters blithely suggest. It may be VERY hard for the Italian cops to nab him.

You are just making a variant of the "everybody knows" argument. Everybody with half a brain knew that OJ did it, and OJ was still acquitted. Name calling doesn't advance your argument.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Proof of the above has eluded the Italian authorities for years. I just read the CN article where it was found that there were no facts sufficient to support the charges against Ferrari.

You are saying something that is plainly unsupportable. There is no good basis to infer that Ferrari will be convicted of anything--much less sent to prison. There is a big difference between an anonymous poster's defamatory opinion and facts necessary to make a case in court. I'm not talking AT ALL about what Ferrari did or didn't do. I'm talking about his exposure to prosecution.

Your own words from post #243

"He doesn't have to sell dope. He doesn't have to stick the needle into anybody's belly button. I suspect he is merely giving training advice to riders..."

What you say you are saying, and what you said do not match.

 

[MarkvW]

Training Advice

Your own words from post #243

"He doesn't have to sell dope. He doesn't have to stick the needle into anybody's belly button. I suspect he is merely giving training advice to riders..."

What you say you are saying, and what you said do not match.

"Training advice" is a very elastic term. I meant it in its most elastic sense. Please pardon me if I don't defame Ferrari (I mean this in a most extremely precise legal sense).

 

[Benotti69]

I think this is the first time I have used the word troll, but this post deserves special mention.

Incredibly naive would apply to anyone who believes Ferrari is just a training program specialist, and family friend to the stars.

Only thing you have right is that Ferrari doesn't operate like Fuentes. Glad you have been following at least a little bit.

Wasn't it Virenque who said that working with Ferrari was like riding with pans up your a$$, everyone would know you were doping. Except for the impossibly naive of course.

Both......

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Proof of the above has eluded the Italian authorities for years. I just read the CN article where it was found that there were no facts sufficient to support the charges against Ferrari.

You are saying something that is plainly unsupportable. There is no good basis to infer that Ferrari will be convicted of anything--much less sent to prison. There is a big difference between an anonymous poster's defamatory opinion and facts necessary to make a case in court. I'm not talking AT ALL about what Ferrari did or didn't do. I'm talking about his exposure to prosecution.

Which CN article??

Ferrari was eventually acquitted as the statute of limitations in Italy had run out - but before that he was found guilty of malpractice.

If Ferrari wants to sue me for defamation then all he needs to do is contact CN, who can contact me and I will supply them with an email address to contact me directly.

Let me make this clear - in my opinion Dr Ferrari is a doping Doctor - if Michele thinks I have defamed him well you should have thought about that before you started doping people, shouldn't you Michele?
(I'll throw in a Lance Armstrong is a doper and Pat McQuaid is corrupt, for free)

 

[jimmypop]

Proof of the above has eluded the Italian authorities for years. I just read the CN article where it was found that there were no facts sufficient to support the charges against Ferrari.

You are saying something that is plainly unsupportable. There is no good basis to infer that Ferrari will be convicted of anything--much less sent to prison. There is a big difference between an anonymous poster's defamatory opinion and facts necessary to make a case in court. I'm not talking AT ALL about what Ferrari did or didn't do. I'm talking about his exposure to prosecution.

Don't be so dim.

If you talk with the right people, you'll learn that there were zero degrees of separation between Ferrari and banned/illegal substances. And when I say "right people", I'm referring to those in the sport who have/had firsthand knowledge of this, not internet forum warriors such as yourself who are several orders of magnitude divorced from the empirical evidence.

You think that campervan had only meats and cheeses in the fridge? Get real. Ferarri's not a super-villain; he's just a greedy doping doctor driven by the filthy lucre and a misplaced internal desire to beat the system. As has been relayed by those with firsthand knowledge, he definitely had his paws on the package.

If people are sharing this information with strangers on the internet, you can be sure as sh*t they're sharing it with various prosecutors.

 

[MarkvW]

funny

Which CN article??

Ferrari was eventually acquitted as the statute of limitations in Italy had run out - but before that he was found guilty of malpractice.

If Ferrari wants to sue me for defamation then all he needs to do is contact CN, who can contact me and I will supply them with an email address to contact me directly.

Let me make this clear - in my opinion Dr Ferrari is a doping Doctor - if Michele thinks I have defamed him well you should have thought about that before you started doping people, shouldn't you?
(I'll throw in a Lance Armstrong is a doper and Pat McQuaid is corrupt, for free)

http://Www.cyclingnews.com/news/michele-ferrari-absolved-of-all-charges-by-italian-appeals-court

I've never posted a link with my smartphone and I haven't figured out the cut and paste. The link was referenced in Wikipedia.

Your link predates this one.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

http://Www.cyclingnews.com/news/michele-ferrari-absolved-of-all-charges-by-italian-appeals-court

I've never posted a link with my smartphone and I haven't figured out the cut and paste. The link was referenced in Wikipedia.

Your link predates this one.

And your link predates this April 2011 piece from CN.

Dr Ferrari went on trial in Bologna in 2005 for sporting fraud and illegally acting as a pharmacist in 2004. He was found guilty and given an 11-month suspended sentence but was later cleared of the illegal acting as a pharmacist on appeal. The accusations of sporting fraud were quashed due to the slow legal process in Italy and the statute of limitations.

 

[D-Queued]

The "illegally acting as a pharmacist" does suggest he may have been more than just been a high priced, paid-for voyeur.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

"The Right People?"

Don't be so dim.

If you talk with the right people, you'll learn that there were zero degrees of separation between Ferrari and banned/illegal substances. And when I say "right people", I'm referring to those in the sport who have/had firsthand knowledge of this, not internet forum warriors such as yourself who are several orders of magnitude divorced from the empirical evidence.

You think that campervan had only meats and cheeses in the fridge? Get real. Ferarri's not a super-villain; he's just a greedy doping doctor driven by the filthy lucre and a misplaced internal desire to beat the system. As has been relayed by those with firsthand knowledge, he definitely had his paws on the package.

If people are sharing this information with strangers on the internet, you can be sure as sh*t they're sharing it with various prosecutors.

I can't argue against "The Right People." Especially The Right People who have "Firsthand Knowledge" of "Zero Degrees of Separation." Your secret, superior knowledge is unchallengeable! You win (but what you win, I don't know)!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I can't argue against "The Right People." Especially The Right People who have "Firsthand Knowledge" of "Zero Degrees of Separation." Your secret, superior knowledge is unchallengeable! You win (but what you win, I don't know)!

Nothing is unchallengeable but you might want to get your information correct before you challenge people.

Because its not secret information.
From Floyds emails;

About a week later, Dr Ferrari performed an extraction of half a liter of blood to be
transfused back into me during the Tour de France.

 

[MarkvW]

nope

The "illegally acting as a pharmacist" does suggest he may have been more than just been a high priced, paid-for voyeur.

Dave.

That was the count that he was cleared of because the evidence was insufficient. So, you're suggesting that an ACQUITTAL on one count in the past makes it more likely that he will be found guilty of the same offense in the future?

My point is that a criminal case will be very hard to make against the guy if he is not hands-on with the dope--and to me, it appears more likely he is not. He can make his money without handling dope.

As far as I can tell, rumor, innuendo, and previously insufficient facts are all that are being presented to support the argument that Ferrari is going down this time.

As he is not operating out of Italy any more, I don't know how the training advice he provides in another jurisdiction will subject him to Italian jurisdiction ("advice" is used in a broad sense). That's a good question for an Italian lawyer.

I'd readily concede that it is theoretically possible that Ferrari is administering steroid suppositories and EPO belly button injections. I think it is more likely that he is NOT doing that. It is also theoretically possible that Ferrari handles dope himself and delivers it to others. I think that is also unlikely. It is theoretically possible that Ferrari is a gang leader criminal mastermind. That is absurd. It is theoretically possible that Ferrari is loosely associated with dealers that he refers riders to. Tough to prove in court, maybe jurisdictional problems, wait and see. It is also theoretically possible that Ferrari, on the advice of lawyers, couches his advice to riders with extreme care in an attempt to stay legal. That would be clever. That's my guess (emphasize guess).

I haven't seen anything like admissible evidence that Ferrari has ever trafficked in illegal substances. The closest anybody ever got was a failed prosecution for prescription abuse. He (a wealthy man) would have to forge alliances with very bad men who would not hesitate to do him dirty. That doesn't resonate when he can make big bucks from training advice. Anybody can provide dope; only a very few can provide the very sophisticated interpretive services he can. Linking him to an illegal PED trafficking mob might happen, but there is zero indication of any likelihood that it will. I can't believe he is abusing his prescription power now because he is surely watched like a hawk by the cops. If anybody has evidence of that, I'd like to see it.

If I were an evil mad doctor, I'd work through doctor cutouts in countries where patient confidentiality is respected and where a doctor can't be prosecuted for prescribing PEDs for the purpose of maintaining patient health. I'd give the training advice to the client and I would consult with the doctor who would actually prescribe the drugs. The doctor wouldn't be doing anything wrong--he'd merely be helping the patient recover from the physical demands of extreme training. I, the evil doctor, would give my training advice from a jurisdiction that doesn't give a darn about conspiracy to commit sporting fraud in another country.

 

[MarkvW]

back to my point . . .

Nothing is unchallengeable but you might want to get your information correct before you challenge people.

Because its not secret information.
From Floyds emails;

Too old. Won't support a timely prosecution. Not arguing about what Ferrari did, only arguing about what he can be convicted of.

Only mudslinging. . . Nothing that will stick, though.

 

[cat6cx]

Too old. Won't support a timely prosecution. Not arguing about what Ferrari did, only arguing about what he can be convicted of.

Only mudslinging. . . Nothing that will stick, though.

Actually you were arguing about what Ferrari did.

I think the point is Floyd's comment indicates Ferrari was "hands on", which goes against the basis for most of your arguments.

 

[MarkvW]

special relationship

Nothing is unchallengeable but you might want to get your information correct before you challenge people.

Because its not secret information.
From Floyds emails;

The "illegally acting as a pharmacist" does suggest he may have been more than just been a high priced, paid-for voyeur.

Dave.

I might have to concede that the Doctor might have treated Lance differently from his other clients. After all, they're "family friends."

 

[MarkvW]

exclusivity

Actually you were arguing about what Ferrari did.

I think the point is Floyd's comment indicates Ferrari was "hands on", which goes against the basis for most of your arguments.

Yeah, I see your point: "He did it then; it's more likely that he did it now." That has some force. Two big things have happened since then, though. First, he's been ostracized and banned from the pro peloton. He can't safely get close enough to his riders now to give them regular hands-on doping. Second, he's been run through the Italian judicial mill once. I bet he learned something from the experience.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Too old. Won't support a timely prosecution. Not arguing about what Ferrari did, only arguing about what he can be convicted of.

Only mudslinging. . . Nothing that will stick, though.

Would 2009 be ok?

Around 8 p.m. on Nov. 11, 2010, Italian police and customs officials acting at the behest of agents of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) pulled over Yaroslav Popovych as he drove on a roundabout in Quarrata, a quaint Tuscan village of stucco facades and colorful shutters between Pistoia and Florence. The officials had been looking for Popovych, one of Lance Armstrong's Radio Shack teammates, to execute a search warrant. Italian authorities say the Ukrainian cyclist was startled but cooperative. He led them through olive groves to his house beside a cemetery. There the officials found drug-testing documents, medical supplies and performance-enhancing drugs. They also found e-mails and texts that, they say, establish that as recently as 2009 Armstrong's team had links to controversial Italian physician Michele Ferrari, with whom the Texan had said he cut ties in 2004.