Jan Ullrich

[Walkman]

it is not an article, it is the famous im conversation with vaughters and someone else, i forget who, no idea if it is true or not, but recent goings on and things pevenage said make me think ullrich was going easy on the doping after the festina thing.

Wow! Thanks for the quick answer! You don't happen to remember the link?

 

[Neworld]

Wow! Thanks for the quick answer! You don't happen to remember the link?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

Polish, Flick, Cobbles...will say something like that text was fake, or altered or just retaliation by jealous foes. Some response based solely on fact.

NW

 

[palmerq]

Wow! Thanks for the quick answer! You don't happen to remember the link?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

Polish, Flick, Cobbles...will say something like that text was fake, or altered or just retaliation by jealous foes. Some response based solely on fact.

NW

that's the thing i was talking about, good work from newworld... I am not sure if it is real or not, but some of the stuff makes sense, I guess moreau looked clean compared to the rest when he was at credit agricole. And rudy pevenage said telekom and many others stopped orgainised team doping after the festina scandal, so combined with this I think it may be true that jan wasn't that bad a doper from 2000 onwards :S and the couple of years jan looked really good(2003 and 2006) pevenage was managing his teams, and I think he is a dodgy one :S

 

[MacRoadie]

I don't know them. Are they real ?

Real by your definition, or that of the rest of the world?

 

[MarkvW]

pevenage

Minimizing Ullrich is like minimizing Armstrong.

Ullrich was wealthy . He could afford a doping program better than a team sponsored doping program. And wasn't Ullrich the son of Rudy (to Dr. Fuentes)

I'd always thought Ullrich was a committed doper. Is this wrong?

 

[palmerq]

I'd always thought Ullrich was a committed doper. Is this wrong?

yes i think so :S

 

[flicker]

I agree with what you are saying also the Core strength of an Iron Worker or boilermaker. Also in terms of cyclists like you say everyone adapts to a different specialty.

I have seen powerful riders. I never heard Phil or Paul comment about Jans cadence. I have heard from posters here say that EPO can help to a faster cadence. I have no experience with that.
I did hear from a friend who is a 2 time national champion, who was an animal TT man and gear pusher that Ulrich blew it with his cadence, that Armstrongs, Tylers , Mayos was way more efficient. I have also read hear on this forum how the posters criticized Armstrong for sitting in a caccoon of shelter for the whole race. I was a bit aghast by their criticism because I thought this is exactly the kind of support which is required from a team.
Could be Jans heart pumps slower than Armstrongs, I have heard that can effect maximum cadence. I do not believe that, I do believe his trainers should have had Ullrich emulate Armstrong in every way. All is fair in love, sports and war.

 

[stainlessguy1]

I agree with what you are saying also the Core strength of an Iron Worker or boilermaker. Also in terms of cyclists like you say everyone adapts to a different specialty.

I have seen powerful riders. I never heard Phil or Paul comment about Jans cadence. I have heard from posters here say that EPO can help to a faster cadence. I have no experience with that.
I did hear from a friend who is a 2 time national champion, who was an animal TT man and gear pusher that Ulrich blew it with his cadence, that Armstrongs, Tylers , Mayos was way more efficient. I have also read hear on this forum how the posters criticized Armstrong for sitting in a caccoon of shelter for the whole race. I was a bit aghast by their criticism because I thought this is exactly the kind of support which is required from a team.
Could be Jans heart pumps slower than Armstrongs, I have heard that can effect maximum cadence. I do not believe that, I do believe his trainers should have had Ullrich emulate Armstrong in every way. All is fair in love, sports and war.

That part about emulating someone elses riding style is the hard part . A coach can say what he wants but in the end , the rider knows what cadence is going to take him the distance . ( it always depends on the state of ones health at the time )
Many others believed in big Gear Training and Racing as well , one of those is Greg Lemond. ( from some of his interviewed articles in winning ) . Maybe Fabian Cancellara will be another . All these guys are good time trialers . There are a lot of big gear riders out there . But i was told , comming back from years of hybernation , that it has all changed . Many riders and ex coaches have confirmed this and small gears are in .
That doesnt mean i can switch , because of Lances style . I do carry a *Life Savour* ring , ( pun intended ) but i figure if i have to shift into it , i am done anyway and might as well break out the beer .
Personally i ride bigger gears , love it , slower heart rate , dont really like to sprint . I can give credit to some of these theories through experience .

 

[Kender]

I did hear from a friend who is a 2 time national champion, who was an animal TT man and gear pusher that Ulrich blew it with his cadence, that Armstrongs, Tylers , Mayos was way more efficient.

2 of the 3 are convicted dopers and the 3rd is under investigation

have you ever thought that the higher cadence is only better because of the doping?

I do not believe that, I do believe his trainers should have had Ullrich emulate Armstrong in every way

maybe they wanted to, but after Festina Ulrich didnt want to go on the sauce


I'm not saying Ulrich didnt dope, all i'm saying is you need to think about what you're posting before sighting examples of dopers to prove your point that a certain method is better

 

[pedaling squares]

I never heard Phil or Paul comment about Jans cadence.

Really? I don't think a broadcast went by without Paul commenting on Ullrich using a much bigger gear, lower cadence, and having to wind it up like a big diesel engine. It was as much a part of their schtick as the "suitcase of courage" and "legs to engine room - more power!"

 

[mewmewmew13]

Really? I don't think a broadcast went by without Paul commenting on Ullrich using a much bigger gear, lower cadence, and having to wind it up like a big diesel engine. It was as much a part of their schtick as the "suitcase of courage" and "legs to engine room - more power!"

I'm a long-time Jan fan. I remember picking up on their 'schtick' comments whenver one was about Ulle...
my favorite was Paul saying.."he's a BEAST of a man!"

 

[stainlessguy1]

2 of the 3 are convicted dopers and the 3rd is under investigation

have you ever thought that the higher cadence is only better because of the doping?



maybe they wanted to, but after Festina Ulrich didnt want to go on the sauce


I'm not saying Ulrich didnt dope, all i'm saying is you need to think about what you're posting before sighting examples of dopers to prove your point that a certain method is better

_______________________________________________________________

sorry for not including the quotes from flicker in your post .
The issue isnt whether or not , the people that commented on what flicker had posted , were or were not convicted dopers . Its a racers opinion that Jan would of been better off if he could of geared down at least one gear . Which when i watched some of the footage and saw Jan riding a monster gear vs. Lances light zippy style seem quite plausible .
But when i saw more of Jan's time trial footage , i saw him use more monster gears when he was by himself . It is what it is , there are pro's and cons to both . IN my days , shifting was a different affair , we didnt have that type of quick shift on the break lever . YOu had to plan your gear in advance . So if you shifted and made a boo boo , it cost you lots of time . So like wise a good strong time trialer sometimes doesnt want to shift and reset his body to the new speed and cadance . The theory being valuable seconds saved if you can maintain the speed not just on the climb but also on top and on the upcomming flat or decent . Ommiting 3 shifts , but 2 for sure .
The problem comes when in a peloton and the diesel cant adapt , big gears become a way of life .

 

[stainlessguy1]

I'm a long-time Jan fan. I remember picking up on their 'schtick' comments whenver one was about Ulle...
my favorite was Paul saying.."he's a BEAST of a man!"

Me too , huge Jan fan . He has a nice riding style , and pleasant with the audience . Even now at the Euro bike show the interview was pleasant and not cold or harsh like some others .
I think he really did love to ride and race bikes beyond all else . It did come from the heart with him .

 

[Polyarmour]

I have seen powerful riders. I never heard Phil or Paul comment about Jans cadence. I have heard from posters here say that EPO can help to a faster cadence. I have no experience with that.
I did hear from a friend who is a 2 time national champion, who was an animal TT man and gear pusher that Ulrich blew it with his cadence, that Armstrongs, Tylers , Mayos was way more efficient. I have also read hear on this forum how the posters criticized Armstrong for sitting in a caccoon of shelter for the whole race. I was a bit aghast by their criticism because I thought this is exactly the kind of support which is required from a team.
Could be Jans heart pumps slower than Armstrongs, I have heard that can effect maximum cadence. I do not believe that, I do believe his trainers should have had Ullrich emulate Armstrong in every way. All is fair in love, sports and war.

To suggest fast cadence is better than slow on the basis that Lance beat Jan is silly. Jan Ullrich was an awesome rider who beat many other riders with a fast cadence, how do you explain that?

Contrary to your assertions, it has been proven many times that slow cadences are more efficient and fast cadences use more oxygen.

The whole cadence issue is still unclear, many articles I have read lately suggest you shouldn't fiddle with cadences, you should just do what comes naturally. So actually I think you are the one out of date with your fast cadence thinking.

 

[Neworld]

stigma, you d***.

ED,

Powerful statement, thank you for the insult.

You and I are both right, its just that I'm not as religious as you obviously. The first thing I did NOT think of was ``the wounds of Christ as reproduced in a human body``. (Creepy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...van_Assisi_ontvangt_de_stigmata.JPG#filelinks


I was thinking more like:
1. a archaic : a scar left by a hot iron: brand
b : a mark of shame or discredit : stain - bore the stigma of cowardice or lying
c : an identifying mark or characteristic; specifically : a specific diagnostic sign of a disease
2. stigmata: plural of stigma

ORIGIN: Latin stigmat-, stigma mark, brand, from Greek, from stizein to tattoo

I think your response was a little discordant with the casual content of the thread IMO. But if you need to inappropriately insult me please do I am sure the moderators would love to hear from you.

NW

 

[flicker]

_______________________________________________________________

sorry for not including the quotes from flicker in your post .
The issue isnt whether or not , the people that commented on what flicker had posted , were or were not convicted dopers . Its a racers opinion that Jan would of been better off if he could of geared down at least one gear . Which when i watched some of the footage and saw Jan riding a monster gear vs. Lances light zippy style seem quite plausible .
But when i saw more of Jan's time trial footage , i saw him use more monster gears when he was by himself . It is what it is , there are pro's and cons to both . IN my days , shifting was a different affair , we didnt have that type of quick shift on the break lever . YOu had to plan your gear in advance . So if you shifted and made a boo boo , it cost you lots of time . So like wise a good strong time trialer sometimes doesnt want to shift and reset his body to the new speed and cadance . The theory being valuable seconds saved if you can maintain the speed not just on the climb but also on top and on the upcomming flat or decent . Ommiting 3 shifts , but 2 for sure .
The problem comes when in a peloton and the diesel cant adapt , big gears become a way of life .

On the TT use whatever you can turn. Look at Merckx in some of his TTs he was all over the bike and WON! Merckx could churn the goods, so could Ullrich. Ullrich was beautiful in the TTs except for his prangs.What I saw with Lance is how he sat in with his domestiques like Levi and when the tough mts. came he rode at a tempo. When the attacks came he seemed to accelerate with anyone.

I rarely saw that with Ullrich. Yet Lance did it all the time, but Ullrich was the superior athlete, what a big cougar he was!

 

[flicker]

Polyamour,

This part right here;,Contrary to your assertions, it has been proven many times that slow cadences are more efficient and fast cadences use more oxygen. Is this what people say on the forum and attribute to EPO use?

 

[flicker]

Really? I don't think a broadcast went by without Paul commenting on Ullrich using a much bigger gear, lower cadence, and having to wind it up like a big diesel engine. It was as much a part of their schtick as the "suitcase of courage" and "legs to engine room - more power!"

I loved Ullrichs and LeMonds power style. After I hear paul and his friends say the same thing 3X in 10 minutes I zone out their drone.

Give Paul and Phil credit though, it must be difficult to report a race, monotanous and boring. I would rather hear it in Flemish which I understand not a word of.

 

[Boeing]

Proof is he was actually born in 1962

 

[Cobblestoned]

*** edited by mod ***

 

[stainlessguy1]

On the TT use whatever you can turn. Look at Merckx in some of his TTs he was all over the bike and WON! Merckx could churn the goods, so could Ullrich. Ullrich was beautiful in the TTs except for his prangs.What I saw with Lance is how he sat in with his domestiques like Levi and when the tough mts. came he rode at a tempo. When the attacks came he seemed to accelerate with anyone.

I rarely saw that with Ullrich. Yet Lance did it all the time, but Ullrich was the superior athlete, what a big cougar he was!

Yes this is true , Lance did sit in more, that was his style , sit and conserve energy . Lance had a stronger team and more loyal . I remember when Jan had lots of domestique problems and trouble with his team , so he did have to ride more of the race himself , than Lance did . This also makes a big difference . I think there was more money in the Lance squad and it kept all riders doing what they needed to . ( i am not talking about the floyd incident here ) That wasnt the case in the teams that supported Jan . Lots of infighting by certain members , one in particular.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Re the cadance debate. If we view the way a cyclist develops power not in terms of strength but in terms of cardiovasculer efficiency developing sustainable power ( watts) then logicly it follows that with the introduction of extra oxygon ( EPO, Tranfusions) Cadance will rise with the greater efficiancy available.
Much the same as a small engined race car breathing better through better air filters , improved induction or even a supercharger...no pun intended!

 

[Jan the Man]

Ullrich was very efficient in the TT. Excellent style and very powerful. He remains my favourite cyclist.

A champion but also humble and human.

Of the modern day riders I think Klöden has a very good and very graceful technique. Tony Martin's TT style reminds me of Ulle.

 

[stainlessguy1]

Re the cadance debate. If we view the way a cyclist develops power not in terms of strength but in terms of cardiovasculer efficiency developing sustainable power ( watts) then logicly it follows that with the introduction of extra oxygon ( EPO, Tranfusions) Cadance will rise with the greater efficiancy available.
Much the same as a small engined race car breathing better through better air filters , improved induction or even a supercharger...no pun intended!

I dont think that is exactly true , The smaller high reving engines all have shorter stroke or are designed totally different . The discplacement per cylinder matters and the power band on those engines is so small it is rediculous . Yes they rev like 9 to 14 grand ,, but you just get nothing out of them at the lower rev rate . So in other words no matter how much oxygen you transfuse in the engine you cant tow a trailer . ( for sake of arguement a race engine might develope full horsepower at 10 grand and a diesel at 2 grand )
On the other hand the slower reving diesel , with a maximum engine rpm of say only 4 grand , is going to have torque galore , and tow your trailer day and night . Now these engines are heavy and huge and long stroke Now there are newer engines out there yet that offer so much torque in booth but i am just generalizing .
In the body , if it gets more oxygen when it needs it , it is mostly in the mountain stages that people are starved of enough oxygen that the issue makes the most visible difference then both types of riding get a boost. You need to get oxygen to get the power output . I doesnt affect the cadence more than on the flats . It does affect plain basic more power because the muscles are able to work at altitude ( and if you are able to breath the air) So if you ride a short crank and faster cadence vs a longer crank and a slower cadence the theoretical difference is the same . Adjust the gear to your style of riding . Sometimes we are talking of a difference of only one gear ( a one tooth difference ) that a rider might choose on a given climb or day . YOu do need enough horsepower to offset your body weight in the pedals if there is a huge body weight difference during a climb .

sorry cant edit , gotta go pick up a sick kid ,, ciao for now ... lol

 

[flicker]

I am going to change the subject here, I read in this months Pro-Cycling that Jan is being paradyed by a German comic. Why do the German journalists want to pick on Jan and cycling. In my opinion very negativly protraying cycling.