Jan Ullrich

[The Plediadian]

I bet most Amercian cyclists wouldn't have followed the sport if they knew of the hypocrisy of his doping after stating he would never dope after his cancer

The sport was growing after the popularity of LeMond.



I think Kohl, Sienkweiz and the whole T-Mobile debacle contributed. Wouldn't it be so convenient to dump the blame all on Jan Ullrich's shoulders.



No not really. It has to do with character and personality. One has good ones the other doesn't.

I agree with you. Ullrich was hung out to dry while others skated. Kohl, Schumacker and Sienkwiz have made cycling look ridiculous.

I don't think Armstrong pulled the wool over the naiveUSA public eyes.
The people I have talked with here know the score with Armstrong.
Have not met one Armstrong hater, off this internet, including Greg.

Armstrong is a cycling icon here, just as Greg is, neither one greater than the other, in the public eyes I have spoken with.

Mostly 7>3. The doping in sports is mostly seen in cycling here, therefore ALL Pro cyclists here are seen as dopers, including domestic pros.

 

[Carols]

I don't think Armstrong pulled the wool over the naiveUSA public eyes.
The people I have talked with here know the score with Armstrong.
Have not met one Armstrong hater, off this internet, including Greg.

Armstrong is a cycling icon here, just as Greg is, neither one greater than the other, in the public eyes I have spoken with.

Mostly 7>3. The doping in sports is mostly seen in cycling here, therefore ALL Pro cyclists here are seen as dopers, including domestic pros.

Have to disagree. Lance is held in very high esteem and well known by the non cycling, naive public as a hero. LeMond is unknown

 

[egtalbot]

I agree with you. Ullrich was hung out to dry while others skated. Kohl, Schumacker and Sienkwiz have made cycling look ridiculous.

I don't think Armstrong pulled the wool over the naiveUSA public eyes.
The people I have talked with here know the score with Armstrong.
Have not met one Armstrong hater, off this internet, including Greg.

Armstrong is a cycling icon here, just as Greg is, neither one greater than the other, in the public eyes I have spoken with.

Mostly 7>3. The doping in sports is mostly seen in cycling here, therefore ALL Pro cyclists here are seen as dopers, including domestic pros.

You may be right about cycling fans, a miniscule number of us here in America. Most Americans who are not active cycling fans have no idea who Greg Lemond is but they know who Armstrong is.

I think the key thing is that most Americans simply assume that most professional athletes dope. It's not something that gets discussed very often simply because it's accepted. American Football, baseball, basketball, you won't get a lot of people arguing if you suggest someone's doping. And while there is a subset of people who believe that Armstrong's clean "because of what he does for cancer," it's not a majority. For the most part, we like our athletes just fine even with the tacit assumption that they're doped to the gills.

To be honest, when it comes to fandom, I'm a little the same way. I'm pretty sure most of the guys I'm watching in the peleton are doping, even if not with the impunity of 1991-2007. I still love to watch 'em.

 

[thehog]

Excellent post as usual, Hog. I was trying to say the same thing, only less eloquently. If he's bitter, he doesn't show it - and if there is a thundering silence from Armstrong on the sanction Jan received it will be because the last thing he will want will be for Jan to break his silence. Is there anybody left from that era apart from Armstrong who has not yet been discredited?

Thank-you. At least Ullrich said he had contact Fuentes and didn’t pass him off as a “family friend”!

 

[DirtyWorks]

You may be right about cycling fans, a miniscule number of us here in America. Most Americans who are not active cycling fans have no idea who Greg Lemond is but they know who Armstrong is.

I think the key thing is that most Americans simply assume that most professional athletes dope. It's not something that gets discussed very often simply because it's accepted.

It's relative. During and just after his era, Lemond was a well known figure in a really obscure sport. Armstrong was more well known, but still from an obscure sport that runs in July for Americans. My estimation is for the vast majority of Americans Wonderboy passes into the "Who is he and why is he with that other person I recognize in this photo?" category. The guy has too many skeletons in his closets for anything else.

I don't know that most spectators want to know the goings-on inside the sport. All the messy production stuff that goes into making the show is not interesting to many at all. They get more angry that the show be interrupted.

 

[thehog]

It's relative. During and just after his era, Lemond was a well known figure in a really obscure sport. Armstrong was more well known, but still from an obscure sport that runs in July for Americans. My estimation is for the vast majority of Americans Wonderboy passes into the "Who is he and why is he with that other person I recognize in this photo?" category. The guy has too many skeletons in his closets for anything else.

I don't know that most spectators want to know the goings-on inside the sport. All the messy production stuff that goes into making the show is not interesting to many at all. They get more angry that the show be interrupted.

I’ve commented on this before; Armstrong reign coincided with the boom in the internet. It certainly helped his profile that fans in the US could see him in photos and in video footage each day. Compare that to the LeMond era when it was a Wide World of Sports update in 5 minutes every Saturday and then a magazine 4 weeks after the door finished. Of course his profile was much bigger but a lot of that was thanks to the Internet not so much he was bigger and better than all those before him.

Same goes for Ullrich. Never won the Tour again after 1997 but a lot of people knew who he was. More so than say Stephen Roche or Sean Kelly who were before the Internet age.
_____________________

 

[stainlessguy1]

I’ve commented on this before; Armstrong reign coincided with the boom in the internet. It certainly helped his profile that fans in the US could see him in photos and in video footage each day. Compare that to the LeMond era when it was a Wide World of Sports update in 5 minutes every Saturday and then a magazine 4 weeks after the door finished. Of course his profile was much bigger but a lot of that was thanks to the Internet not so much he was bigger and better than all those before him.

Same goes for Ullrich. Never won the Tour again after 1997 but a lot of people knew who he was. More so than say Stephen Roche or Sean Kelly who were before the Internet age.
_____________________

I agree, very good point. All of these factors changed the way the tours unfolded due to new technology and new media access to all , etc . Also extensive use of race radios during those years and it all added up to instant hero on your TV when ever you wanted it.
WE know that is so true , because for many years everytime a rider in these parts rode in a kit , after a major Tour, the comment from motorists was always , Hey Lance Tours over ! Get off the Road! Grrrrr

 

[mewmewmew13]

I’ve commented on this before; Armstrong reign coincided with the boom in the internet. It certainly helped his profile that fans in the US could see him in photos and in video footage each day. Compare that to the LeMond era when it was a Wide World of Sports update in 5 minutes every Saturday and then a magazine 4 weeks after the door finished. Of course his profile was much bigger but a lot of that was thanks to the Internet not so much he was bigger and better than all those before him.

Same goes for Ullrich. Never won the Tour again after 1997 but a lot of people knew who he was. More so than say Stephen Roche or Sean Kelly who were before the Internet age.
_____________________

Yes, this fact of the internet and instant coverage and media play is huge. I do remember trying to get any news in the Lemond era...very thinly spaced and if you missed it when it was broadcast you couldn't see a repeat on tv either. Mainly obscure magazines and tiny news items in main stream media.

Also, our culture , along with the internet, segued into a more 'celebrity' driven and 'folk-hero' type audience. Previously very remote, now newsmakers and sports figures were becoming so much more accessible via the net into our homes. The fact that their private lives were juicy or interesting just propelled them further into our radar.

 

[TheMight]

You may be right about cycling fans, a miniscule number of us here in America. Most Americans who are not active cycling fans have no idea who Greg Lemond is but they know who Armstrong is.

I think there is another aspect, the idea of a Texan going to France and beating them at "their game." Hard to underestimate that factor, it's practically a romantic story to many Americans.

I think the key thing is that most Americans simply assume that most professional athletes dope. It's not something that gets discussed very often simply because it's accepted. American Football, baseball, basketball, you won't get a lot of people arguing if you suggest someone's doping. And while there is a subset of people who believe that Armstrong's clean "because of what he does for cancer," it's not a majority. For the most part, we like our athletes just fine even with the tacit assumption that they're doped to the gills.

There are a couple factors here that I think are important to note. First off, in parts of Europe there are some pretty harsh penalties for doping, guys have gone to jail (if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Longo sat in jail just within the last week)and that imbalance sort of forces it in to the eyes of the fans. Specifically, the French have been less competitive for a fairly long time and it's suggested by many that it has something to do with their sporting fraud laws unleveling their playing field. Fans of French riders get a different deal than fans of Spanish riders. That raises the issue in a way that makes it hard to brush it off.

The other thing of note, the American sports media isn't really media. Not like media meaning journalism at least, it's media like fans with access. It enables, and that's not an accident. Take Tiger Woods, there are guys that are paid to follow him, talk to him, and they knew his lifestyle and it was never news because he'd cut them off. Michael Jordan was famous for it, he'd hold grudges if you spoke about him the wrong way, it basically made Ahmad Rashad's career because he had access to MJ. The guys in the media have access and to avoid losing the access they avoid talking about certain things. The best you'll get in American sports as far as doping goes is a discussion about whether known dopers are worthy for the hall of fame. It's big time money and big time entertainment and there has been such a complete lack of "journalism" for ages, it won't change.

It's really unfortunate how cycling forces the issue by having inconsistent treatment of athletes. UCI is part of the problem, they tolerate it...

 

[thehog]

Yes, this fact of the internet and instant coverage and media play is huge. I do remember trying to get any news in the Lemond era...very thinly spaced and if you missed it when it was broadcast you couldn't see a repeat on tv either. Mainly obscure magazines and tiny news items in main stream media.

Also, our culture , along with the internet, segued into a more 'celebrity' driven and 'folk-hero' type audience. Previously very remote, now newsmakers and sports figures were becoming so much more accessible via the net into our homes. The fact that their private lives were juicy or interesting just propelled them further into our radar.

Before LeMond there was Phil Andersen. He was the first English speaking rider with a chance to win the Tour. He was also the first rider from any country to bring a lawyer to a contract discussion.

I lived in Australia at the time when Andersen was a big chance for the 84 Tour. I think about 0.000000000000000000056% of the Australian population knew who he was. I only got to see photos of him at the Tour around 3 months after the fact. I would import by sea freight Winning magazine from the UK to my local news agency. That was the only way to get any news on the Tour back then. I remember riding down to the newsagent just about every day to check if the magazine had come in.

If the internet was around when Andersen or LeMond was riding they'd be much much bigger. But I like the way they are. Etched in magazines and poor quality VHS tapes.

 

[skidmark]

Before LeMond there was Phil Andersen. He was the first English speaking rider with a chance to win the Tour.

Minor, off-topic point: Tom Simpson?

 

[mewmewmew13]

Before LeMond there was Phil Andersen. He was the first English speaking rider with a chance to win the Tour. He was also the first rider from any country to bring a lawyer to a contract discussion.

I lived in Australia at the time when Andersen was a big chance for the 84 Tour. I think about 0.000000000000000000056% of the Australian population knew who he was. I only got to see photos of him at the Tour around 3 months after the fact. I would import by sea freight Winning magazine from the UK to my local news agency. That was the only way to get any news on the Tour back then. I remember riding down to the newsagent just about every day to check if the magazine had come in.

If the internet was around when Andersen or LeMond was riding they'd be much much bigger. But I like the way they are. Etched in magazines and poor quality VHS tapes.

Nice memories.
and I totally agree with your comment.

 

[Neworld]

Nice memories.
and I totally agree with your comment.

Speaking of memories, does anyone have access to the Vuelta win that Ullrich had? Or is it best found on cyclingtorrents.nl

NW

 

[mewmewmew13]

Speaking of memories, does anyone have access to the Vuelta win that Ullrich had? Or is it best found on cyclingtorrents.nl

NW

Only a few minutes but it is Jan in his glory!!

http://youtu.be/GRUFfFZMPbA

 

[Bavarianrider]

Interesting thoughts. I also think that Ullrich in 2001 had a great form which would have won him any Tour except for that one, which also saw the strongest Armstrong ever (for whatever reason). And I forgot the crashes that he had in 2005, of course they really challenged him (wasn't his lung affected?).

But it doesn't explain Ullrichs change of styles. Even without considering Armstrongs incredicle spinning, guys like Leipheimer, Beloki, Basso, Valverde and even Klöden remained much more flexible in the mountains even "post-EPO". Only Ullrich turned to a pure power-based climbing. I once heard it had to do with his knee, which after his crash in 1999 at the Deutschland Tour never again became really stable, so that he had to support the knee by building up (much) more muscles t strengthen it's structure. But I do not know if this theory is of any value.

As to Ullrichs picture in the public, it became better in the last two years. I remember the TV briadcast of "Rund um den Finanzplatz Frankfurt" last year when the reporter referred to him as "der große Jan Ullrich" ("the great Jan Ullrich") in a non-ironical context, That would have been impossible arround 2007-9. He will regain his place in German cycling's history and the public attention, just as Rudy Altig ("Die rollende Apotheke", "The rolling pharmacy") did.

Ullrich's change of style is quiet easy to explain. And the knee thing is not really the main reason. When Telekom quiet Epo, they were searching for a way how Jan could compensate that. They came to the conclusion to work on Jan's best strength and iomprove it even more. Hence Ullrich started to do weight lifting in order to gain power in his legs. Obviously this was not the smartest moves from todays perspective. But they desperatly looked for a way to compete with the Texan Epo monster. Probably they took the wrong path. By 05 and especially 06 Ullrich looked a bitdifferent again. Iam sure in the 06 Tour we would have seen the Jan from 1997.

 

[webvan]

Interesting, in 2005 he still looked like a monster but you're right, in 2006 he seemed much thinner, what an interesting tour it would have been had Basso and Ulle been there.

BTW, the good Doctor Franke is disappointed by Ulle's statement : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ullrichs-explanation-met-with-disappointment-in-germany - I suppose good Doctor Franke never even once broke some rules slightly ? Really a witch hunt isn't .

 

[Carols]

Speaking of memories, does anyone have access to the Vuelta win that Ullrich had? Or is it best found on cyclingtorrents.nl

NW

I have a 3 hour version of the 1999 Vuelta from WCP

 

[rzombie1988]

Americans know nothing about cycling. We might know who Armstrong is but even so, most of the people who know him know the livestrong stuff, not the cycling. People here do not watch cycling and I've honestly only ever had 2 conversations about cycling in my lifetime here.

 

[Carols]

Americans know nothing about cycling. We might know who Armstrong is but even so, most of the people who know him know the livestrong stuff, not the cycling. People here do not watch cycling and I've honestly only ever had 2 conversations about cycling in my lifetime here.

Hey I resent that I'm American and I know a lot about cycling. Ok I'm in a very small minority LOL!

Yes Lance is an American Hero; but it is due to recovering from cancer first, then winning le Tour and being a Recognized spokesman for Cancer. A sportsman that transcended sport.

We could talk A few of my friends have attended bike races and have started watching cycling due to my relentless pursuit of discussing it for many, many years. Teaching them the complexities of the sport is an ongoing task though, but worth the effort!

 

[Neworld]

Ullrich's change of style is quiet easy to explain. And the knee thing is not really the main reason. When Telekom quiet Epo, they were searching for a way how Jan could compensate that. They came to the conclusion to work on Jan's best strength and iomprove it even more. Hence Ullrich started to do weight lifting in order to gain power in his legs. Obviously this was not the smartest moves from todays perspective. But they desperatly looked for a way to compete with the Texan Epo monster. Probably they took the wrong path. By 05 and especially 06 Ullrich looked a bitdifferent again. Iam sure in the 06 Tour we would have seen the Jan from 1997.

With all that power, I would have loved to see him attempt the hour record...pure torque from a gifted athlete...oh the possibilities. Having said that, the same goes for Indurain, and why the heck hasn't Cancellara tried it out?

NW

 

[Neworld]

Only a few minutes but it is Jan in his glory!!

http://youtu.be/GRUFfFZMPbA

Thank you.

Fun to see him teched out on that ITT machine, and that poor soul trying to stay with him up the long grind of a climb. Only to be shot out the back after his best attempts.

Cheers

NW

 

[roundabout]

Thank you.

Fun to see him teched out on that ITT machine, and that poor soul trying to stay with him up the long grind of a climb. Only to be shot out the back after his best attempts.

Cheers

NW

That poor soul was just 30 seconds back after 19 stages.

 

[thehog]

Minor, off-topic point: Tom Simpson?

Good point. I should have said in the "modern" era.

I think before Andersen Simpson was probably the only other English speaking rider with a chance at winning the Tour.

We digress.

I watched some of those Ullrich youTubes; now that the results don't actually mean anything you can really see who was probably the best rider going around. Fit or unfit he still looked so good on a bike.

Perhaps history will be kind and we'll look back and see that Jan was probably the true champion of that era.

 

[SiAp1984]

Thank you.

Fun to see him teched out on that ITT machine, and that poor soul trying to stay with him up the long grind of a climb. Only to be shot out the back after his best attempts.

Cheers

NW

That's Gonzales de Galdeano, isn't he? There's another nice Youtube-vid out there with Ullrich grinding up the Angliru in 1999. First display of his "new" style. Pure power. But no match anymore for the pure climbers.

Hour record: I guess the prestige of this record is not so high anymore for today's riders. + I assume that it would need quite a lot of training on the track which might be difficult to do for a pure road rider like Cancellara (or back then Ullrich).

 

[webvan]

Couldn't open that youtube link for some reason but came across an excellent 30 minute Vuelta 1999 Part 1 video with Ulle powering up the Angliru on the saddle, no going backwards like wiggo this year !