Jan Ullrich

[thehog]

It's all comes back to JV

Milk & honey.

 

[Neworld]

In response to another poster’s “So Epo only made the "big guys" faster but not the climbers?”

The real question to ask is "what is the axiom that RR and most DSs etc... all know of"? And what is the magical balance of rider weight to muscular build to other physiological factors?

What some posters here are saying is that if you want to squeeze every last advantage out a competitors physiological O2 extraction capabilities then the rider should have:
1. High VO2
2. Low HCT (naturally)
3. A high Lean Body Mass with preferentially more muscles.
4. Cash

Assume all former riders from the 1990-2009 time frame had at least access to Cortisol, Test, HGH, IV rehydration, EPO. Some riders reinfused auto Blood. Whether or not they dabbled in IGF, Bovine plasma...clouds the water in this scenario.

So for Jan, he had High VO2, low HCT (kept it low in 2001, maybe 2000), and not necessarily a favourable weight to muscle ratio...which seems to work against the above axiom, as he was supposedly overweight. Or are the goal posts moving now...maybe he just never trained, but wasn't overweight.

The other questions I have are...clearly there were other riders the same size as Jan, maybe even more muscular, leaner, and trained harder...why were they not finishing better than Jan? If everyone knew what makes a GT champion surely Jan wasn't the only rider with the secret combination of the above was he? Or, was he? Why didn't the DSs of the world make Fabian C into the best GT rider ever...he has more muscles than Lance and Jan?

Where are all the physiologists reading these posts to share all the axioms?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

It's all comes back to JV

Milk & honey.

Are you saying Jv could have won those tours on a level playing field ?

 

[Bratam]

Are you saying Jv could have won those tours on a level playing field ?

I must admit that i also didn't quite understand The Hog's point there about JV. Perhaps Hog will enlighten us.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I must admit that i also didn't quite understand The Hog's point there about JV. Perhaps Hog will enlighten us.

I understand the point ze hog made i was just kidding.

 

[Bavarianrider]

For god's sake Ullrich had 71 Kilos at the Tour in 1997.
Calling that "heavy" or anything like that is beyond ridicilous.
Ullrich was super lean, he simply wasn't a living skeleton like oters. But claiming he was only able to go up mountains fast ecause of Epo is such a farce.

I reality, Ullrich gained some muscle weight after 1998 when Epo was not taken anymore.
The idea was to push bigger gears at a lower cadence and thereby relaxing the heart/cardio system.

So Ullrich actually put on more weight when he didnt use Epo anymore. This totally trashes your guys logics that he especially benefited of EPO

 

[Race Radio]

For god's sake Ullrich had 71 Kilos at the Tour in 1997.
Calling that "heavy" or anything like that is beyond ridicilous.
Ullrich was super lean, he simply wasn't a living skeleton like oters. But claiming he was only able to go up mountains fast ecause of Epo is such a farce.

I reality, Ullrich gained some muscle weight after 1998 when Epo was not taken anymore.
The idea was to push bigger gears at a lower cadence and thereby relaxing the heart/cardio system.

So Ullrich actually put on more weight when he didnt use Epo anymore. This totally trashes your guys logics that he especially benefited of EPO

? none of this trashes anything. do you really think EPO was not taking after 1998? How about transfusions, when did they stop?

You are welcome to pretend it is about weight but it is about muscle mass, something Jan had in abundance.

 

[Bavarianrider]

? none of this trashes anything. do you really think EPO was not taking after 1998? How about transfusions, when did they stop?

You are welcome to pretend it is about weight but it is about muscle mass, something Jan had in abundance.

Cetainly there was a lot less Epo used after 1998 within Telekom.
Ullrich put on musces to compensate that.
In 2006, when Ullich was pobably using blood doping, he had lost muscle mass again, co incident? I don't think so.

 

[Race Radio]

Cetainly there was a lot less Epo used after 1998 within Telekom.
Ullrich put on musces to compensate that.
In 2006, when Ullich was pobably using blood doping, he had lost muscle mass again, co incident? I don't think so.

Ullrich was working with Fuentes/Checcini from 2003. I saw him many times in those years, his musculature was shocking during the tour

 

[Bavarianrider]

Ullrich was working with Fuentes/Checcini from 2003. I saw him many times in those years, his musculature was shocking during the tour

Indeed it was too heavy, especially in 2004. Too many hours on the bench pess.
Not in 1996-1999, and 2006, though.

 

[thehog]

Indeed it was too heavy, especially in 2004. Too many hours on the bench pess.
Not in 1996-1999, and 2006, though.

He looks good in 93 winning the world amatuer title. Good tactics as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1C2lTh9EI0&sns=em

His brother Stefan was a phenomenal 800m runner. The Ullrich family had that special gene.

Stefan ended up as the mechanic at T-Mobile.

I don't believe in freaks of nature sporting wise but Ullrich was close to it.

Hard as nails and took care of his Mum.

Not much to not like about Jan.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

But claiming he was only able to go up mountains fast ecause of Epo is such a farce.

You must be right, being able to ride 3 1/2 minutes faster than Lucho Herrera is totally normal for a guy that would get dropped in the Swartzwald.

Or, do you think you would raise an eyebrow when der Panzerwagen Toni was able to follow Contador on the Alpe, even beat him by 3 minutes? Even to follow would be sufficient to be fair. Or, Cancellara? Maybe we should compare him with Riis.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

You must be right, being able to ride 3 1/2 minutes faster than Lucho Herrera is totally normal for a guy that would get dropped in the Swartzwald.

Or, do you think you would raise an eyebrow when der Panzerwagen Toni was able to follow Contador on the Alpe, even beat him by 3 minutes? Even to follow would be sufficient to be fair. Or, Cancellara? Maybe we should compare him with Riis.

Ullrich would probably be at a similar level as Bert Grabsch when all the medical experiments are removed.

Good solid engine, capable of winning some TTs and perhaps the odd classic/stage.

Would have been an ok career.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Ullrich would probably be at a similar level as Bert Grabsch when all the medical experiments are removed.

Good solid engine, capable of winning some TTs and perhaps the odd classic/stage.

Would have been an ok career.

I like Irony

 

[Bavarianrider]

You must be right, being able to ride 3 1/2 minutes faster than Lucho Herrera is totally normal for a guy that would get dropped in the Swartzwald.

Or, do you think you would raise an eyebrow when der Panzerwagen Toni was able to follow Contador on the Alpe, even beat him by 3 minutes? Even to follow would be sufficient to be fair. Or, Cancellara? Maybe we should compare him with Riis.

You obviously know nothing about Jan when you compae him to Tony or Cancellara.

 

[Merckx index]

You are welcome to pretend it is about weight but it is about muscle mass, something Jan had in abundance.

This was made in response to another poster, but let me repeat, I myself am OK with that. I just want to see evidence for it, e.g: 1) the best climbers were all densely-muscled types; 2) studies showing that densely-muscled individuals respond better to EPO or transfusions better than less densely-muscled types; 3) studies showing that adding muscle mass with PEDs raises the "natural" V02 or some other parameter resulting in greater power. And "densely-muscled" or "muscle mass" has to be defined in a reasonably objective way, so that any rider can be assessed. Not just, so-and-so says Pantani or Ullrich or LA had more of it than anyone else he ever saw.

FWIW, I agree with you that the dominance of non-classic climbers like LA and Ulle requires an explanation, and that the alternatives most discussed here, for LA at least--exclusive access to some drug like HemAssist; better program with Ferrari; protection from UCI--while in some cases maybe having some truth to them--all seem too weak. This muscle mass theory would not only provide a potentially better explanation for LA's dominance, but connect it with Ulle as well. Maybe Riis, too.

But beyond the absence of evidence for it (presented on this forum), it raises a host of questions. E.g., if it’s not about size of rider per se, but how densely muscled they were, then there should have been some light climbing types who were densely-muscled. You do mention Pantani. But if Pantani had the same blood boosting advantage as LA and Ulle from his muscle mass, he should have killed them on the climbs, because his naturally greater power/weight would have given him an additional advantage.

Now sure, you can wave your hands around and hypothesize that while MP was densely muscled, he wasn’t quite as much as LA and Ulle, so he didn’t get quite the EPO/blood advantage they got. Or maybe his natural HT was higher. But the point is, if size per se is irrelevant, there should have been some light climbing types who got the same blood boosting advantage as bigger guys like LA and Ulle, and so should have been able to out-climb them.

The result would modify the traditional order of climbers in the peloton, but not destroy it. A subset of the traditionally best climbers, those with the densest muscles, would be the new kings of the mountain. Behind them would be larger, densely muscled riders like LA and Ulle, as well as light, traditional climbers that were not so densely muscled. And behind them, larger riders who were not densely muscled.

So if anyone is engaging in filibustering, it's you. Filibustering prevents a deliberative body from proceeding on some issue. Nothing I'm posting prevents you and others from proceeding to evaluate this theory. You're all welcome to ignore me, without hindering in the slightest your discussion. You're the one who has come on here claiming to have had hours of discussion with doctors about this effect, but won't elaborate.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You obviously know nothing about Jan when you compae him to Tony or Cancellara.

What a great answer to the 38.23 Jan was able to do while Lucho Herrera did a 41.50 in his best days.

I do wonder what Thierry Marie would be like when he would have been epo - fulled.

Just face it, Ullrich was a great responder to what guys like Jules Mertens offered him. Maybe he was allready fuelled when he came third in the worlds TT.

 

[Bavarianrider]

What a great answer to the 38.23 Jan was able to do while Lucho Herrera did a 41.50 in his best days.

I do wonder what Thierry Marie would be like when he would have been epo - fulled.

Just face it, Ullrich was a great responder to what guys like Jules Mertens offered him. Maybe he was allready fuelled when he came third in the worlds TT.

Noone denied that Ullrich took Epo in the Epo era. Of course he did.
However, my point is, which is shared by ore people than yours, Ullrich would have been competitive in an era. And, in a totally clean field, Ullrich would have been more sucesfull than he was.

 

[del1962]

Noone denied that Ullrich took Epo in the Epo era. Of course he did.
However, my point is, which is shared by ore people than yours, Ullrich would have been competitive in an era. And, in a totally clean field, Ullrich would have been more sucesfull than he was.

You can't say that with any confidence, we just don't know, that goes with all the doped up riders like Pantani as well

 

[Race Radio]

Noone denied that Ullrich took Epo in the Epo era. Of course he did.
However, my point is, which is shared by ore people than yours, Ullrich would have been competitive in an era. And, in a totally clean field, Ullrich would have been more sucesfull than he was.

....yet you are unable to produce anything to support this theory. All those times Jan rode like crap during the season, got dropped at training camp, etc were because he was taking pity on the other riders. Hiding his awesomeness.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Noone denied that Ullrich took Epo in the Epo era. Of course he did.
However, my point is, which is shared by more people than yours, Ullrich would have been competitive in an era. And, in a totally clean field, Ullrich would have been more sucesfull than he was.

Great argument, the bold. Are those people all German?

Ullrich would have been a nice TT'er, suited for some flat classics, never for GT without epo/hgh/blood etc etc.

But, to be fair, show me some junior records of Jan that showed he could become the second best climber and the numero uno TT'er in GT's. You are even allowed to ignore the fact he was an old skool East German Product.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Great argument, the bold. Are those people all German?

Ullrich would have been a nice TT'er, suited for some flat classics, never for GT without epo/hgh/blood etc etc.

But, to be fair, show me some junior records of Jan that showed he could become the second best climber and the numero uno TT'er in GT's. You are even allowed to ignore the fact he was an old skool East German Product.

Yeah that's why he lived in Hamburg from his 18th birthday on

Matter of fact is, Ullrich was a very sucesfull amateur rider, and was regarded as a century talent from a very early age on.
Matter of fact is that he was a sucessfullproat a very young age.

You have zero facts at all which could back your statement that Ullrich wouldn't have done extremly good in any era.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

[/color]


Yeah that's why he lived in Hamburg from his 18th birthday on

Matter of fact is, Ullrich was a very sucesfull amateur rider, and was regarded as a century talent from a very early age on.
Matter of fact is that he was a sucessfullproat a very young age.

You have zero facts at all which could back your statement that Ullrich wouldn't have done extremly good in any era.

It seems it is hard to talk with fanboys. I will stick with my judgement untill you provide me with some data.

I found his brother:

He reminded of Bert to me in those days, great TT'er in his days, still a bit sad about him.

Great stylish rider.

Ullrich would have been somehow like him.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Loving the bikes....

 

[Bavarianrider]

It seems it is hard to talk with fanboys. I will stick with my judgement untill you provide me with some data.

I found his brother:

He reminded of Bert to me in those days, great TT'er in his days, still a bit sad about him.

Great stylish rider.

Ullrich would have been somehow like him.

You are not excactly providing data, too.

When i post results, you'll say well he already doped back then, so really what could i show you