thehog
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Merckx index said:In response to another poster’s “So Epo only made the "big guys" faster but not the climbers?”
thehog said:It's all comes back to JV
Milk & honey.
I must admit that i also didn't quite understand The Hog's point there about JV. Perhaps Hog will enlighten us.Zam_Olyas said:Are you saying Jv could have won those tours on a level playing field ?
Bratam said:I must admit that i also didn't quite understand The Hog's point there about JV. Perhaps Hog will enlighten us.
Bavarianrider said:For god's sake Ullrich had 71 Kilos at the Tour in 1997.
Calling that "heavy" or anything like that is beyond ridicilous.
Ullrich was super lean, he simply wasn't a living skeleton like oters. But claiming he was only able to go up mountains fast ecause of Epo is such a farce.
I reality, Ullrich gained some muscle weight after 1998 when Epo was not taken anymore.
The idea was to push bigger gears at a lower cadence and thereby relaxing the heart/cardio system.
So Ullrich actually put on more weight when he didnt use Epo anymore. This totally trashes your guys logics that he especially benefited of EPO
Race Radio said:? none of this trashes anything. do you really think EPO was not taking after 1998? How about transfusions, when did they stop?
You are welcome to pretend it is about weight but it is about muscle mass, something Jan had in abundance.
Bavarianrider said:Cetainly there was a lot less Epo used after 1998 within Telekom.
Ullrich put on musces to compensate that.
In 2006, when Ullich was pobably using blood doping, he had lost muscle mass again, co incident? I don't think so.
Race Radio said:Ullrich was working with Fuentes/Checcini from 2003. I saw him many times in those years, his musculature was shocking during the tour
Bavarianrider said:Indeed it was too heavy, especially in 2004. Too many hours on the bench pess.
Not in 1996-1999, and 2006, though.
You must be right, being able to ride 3 1/2 minutes faster than Lucho Herrera is totally normal for a guy that would get dropped in the Swartzwald.Bavarianrider said:But claiming he was only able to go up mountains fast ecause of Epo is such a farce.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:You must be right, being able to ride 3 1/2 minutes faster than Lucho Herrera is totally normal for a guy that would get dropped in the Swartzwald.
Or, do you think you would raise an eyebrow when der Panzerwagen Toni was able to follow Contador on the Alpe, even beat him by 3 minutes? Even to follow would be sufficient to be fair. Or, Cancellara? Maybe we should compare him with Riis.
Dazed and Confused said:Ullrich would probably be at a similar level as Bert Grabsch when all the medical experiments are removed.
Good solid engine, capable of winning some TTs and perhaps the odd classic/stage.
Would have been an ok career.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:You must be right, being able to ride 3 1/2 minutes faster than Lucho Herrera is totally normal for a guy that would get dropped in the Swartzwald.
Or, do you think you would raise an eyebrow when der Panzerwagen Toni was able to follow Contador on the Alpe, even beat him by 3 minutes? Even to follow would be sufficient to be fair. Or, Cancellara? Maybe we should compare him with Riis.
Race Radio said:You are welcome to pretend it is about weight but it is about muscle mass, something Jan had in abundance.
What a great answer to the 38.23 Jan was able to do while Lucho Herrera did a 41.50 in his best days.Bavarianrider said:You obviously know nothing about Jan when you compae him to Tony or Cancellara.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:What a great answer to the 38.23 Jan was able to do while Lucho Herrera did a 41.50 in his best days.
I do wonder what Thierry Marie would be like when he would have been epo - fulled.
Just face it, Ullrich was a great responder to what guys like Jules Mertens offered him. Maybe he was allready fuelled when he came third in the worlds TT.
Bavarianrider said:Noone denied that Ullrich took Epo in the Epo era. Of course he did.
However, my point is, which is shared by ore people than yours, Ullrich would have been competitive in an era. And, in a totally clean field, Ullrich would have been more sucesfull than he was.
Bavarianrider said:Noone denied that Ullrich took Epo in the Epo era. Of course he did.
However, my point is, which is shared by ore people than yours, Ullrich would have been competitive in an era. And, in a totally clean field, Ullrich would have been more sucesfull than he was.
Great argument, the bold. Are those people all German?Bavarianrider said:Noone denied that Ullrich took Epo in the Epo era. Of course he did.
However, my point is, which is shared by more people than yours, Ullrich would have been competitive in an era. And, in a totally clean field, Ullrich would have been more sucesfull than he was.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:Great argument, the bold. Are those people all German?
Ullrich would have been a nice TT'er, suited for some flat classics, never for GT without epo/hgh/blood etc etc.
But, to be fair, show me some junior records of Jan that showed he could become the second best climber and the numero uno TT'er in GT's. You are even allowed to ignore the fact he was an old skool East German Product.
It seems it is hard to talk with fanboys. I will stick with my judgement untill you provide me with some data.Bavarianrider said:[/color]
Yeah that's why he lived in Hamburg from his 18th birthday on
Matter of fact is, Ullrich was a very sucesfull amateur rider, and was regarded as a century talent from a very early age on.
Matter of fact is that he was a sucessfullproat a very young age.
You have zero facts at all which could back your statement that Ullrich wouldn't have done extremly good in any era.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:It seems it is hard to talk with fanboys. I will stick with my judgement untill you provide me with some data.
I found his brother:
He reminded of Bert to me in those days, great TT'er in his days, still a bit sad about him.
Great stylish rider.
Ullrich would have been somehow like him.