Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen, the new alpha mutant

[SHAD0W93]

Ok, what about the rest of my post because this is still exactly what I was referring to. Putting the highlight on 1 part while completely ignoring the complete story.

You posted the whole story bar one part. I added that part, a part that the clinic would view as pretty damning that the main title sponsor would be fine contractually with 4 positives so close together. Now people have the whole story without anything missing, it isn’t that deep.

 

[Ripper]

so you admit, you have no clue, that explains most of your posts here; and yes i do know Pog or at least did know him when he was younger and YES he is exactly the same with no cameras around, so please stick to commenting about your favorite topic (his doping) and stay out of the personal stuff

It sounds like you need to chill out a touch

My reply to Rackham was the point out that both riders and both teams have images that they maintain and that get curated (perhaps massaged or tweaked would be a better phrase) by their respective PR machines. That is how social media and marketing works. I think you know that deep down, but you're getting stuck in some sort of us versus them, win or lose philosophy.

Glad you knew him and he's a nice guy. I've known some really nice bike racers who turned out to be rampant dopers.

This is Jonas' thread though, so enough ToddyTalk.

 

[Kwibus]

Fair enough. What do you think about Vingegaard's statement that doping in cycling is a thing of the past?

I just hope it is.
To be honest I used to roam this forum like a maniac in the past and I've always been convinced each and every rider is using doping in cycling. My life changed and I don't have time to be on here all year anymore and also no interest to do so. I do like to check on here during the TdF while I follow cycling the entire year, but it just gets so lively on here during the TdF
Anways while I've been away from this forum and have switched to listening to cycling podcasts instead, since I can do that while I'm driving/running/walking etc. I noticed I did start to change my stance on this. I've always been a person that tries not to judge until sentenced which is ofcourse hard in reality, but I do know that it doesn't help me one bit when I watch a sport and with every great performance I'm spiralling down the 'they are doping and they dope the best etc. etc." All this while there is no proof they are doing it. What if they are clean?

I must admit that listening to loads of podcasts with armchair specialist, ex-riders, journalists, Ds's etc. also changed my opinion on this. I actually do think the sport changed over the last decade. For how much it has changed I don't know, but my gut feeling is that it's actually in a good spot, but there is also plenty of reason to remain sceptical. At the highest levels there will always be cheaters, there will always be people that try to win at all costs.

Just like you guys I don't have proof that it's clean, just like you don't have proof it's dirty. All I know is that Jumbo has never declined any requests or cameras from any journalist and that does work in their favour in my opinion. Unlike Sky they have remained transparent all the way so far. This is just my opinion and I'm fully aware that most on here will find me incredibly naive.

 

[Kwibus]

You posted the whole story bar one part. I added that part, a part that the clinic would view as pretty damning that the main title sponsor would be fine contractually with 4 positives so close together. Now people have the whole story without anything missing, it isn’t that deep.

I guess my point is made. "The clinic" most of all wants to read the things they want to read and ignore everything else.

 

[Kwibus]

Good on Madiot to strike back, what a *** Plugge is. They're definitely getting more exasperated, German TV interviewed Niermann after Loze and he was definitely not too happy getting asked where these big differences are coming from. Funny enough, Vingegaard seems to stay the coolest so far.

I think it was a really dumb interview by Plugge and he should've never said that even if it's true.

Despite that I really do think French teams are backward as hell and have all the budget to improve on a lot of things.

 

[The Clogger]

Fair enough. What do you think about Vingegaard's statement that doping in cycling is a thing of the past?

What do you want the man to say? The same as Pogacar? It's the dumbest take yet:
"I think we have many controls to prove them wrong,” Pogačar said. “I know, for example, that yesterday, I had three controls in one day – two before the stage and one after. So I think that gives enough weight to prove them wrong.”
Everyone, Pogacar is tested clean, close the clinic

 

[SHAD0W93]

I guess my point is made. "The clinic" most of all wants to read the things they want to read and ignore everything else.

Fair, but no reason to get irritated with me when you irritability asked the OG if they read the article, post everything about the article bar one thing, and I add it then you’re irritated with me.

Like if we’re going to talk about the article let’s talk about the article.

 

[Red Rick]

My favorite idea must be the idea that after PDBF Jumbo specifically started looking for the new wonder doper cause Roglic couldn't do it and lo and behold they had Vingegaard all along.

 

[Kwibus]

Fair, but no reason to get irritated with me when you irritability asked the OG if they read the article, post everything about the article bar one thing, and I add it then you’re irritated with me.

Like if we’re going to talk about the article let’s talk about the article.

Fair enough. I should've been more complete in my initial post. I was too lazy and I did it by what I remembered from reading. Then came your comment and that was exactly proving my points, but in hindsight it did not since I wasn't complete to begin with.

My bad.

 

[Kwibus]

My favorite idea must be the idea that after PDBF Jumbo specifically started looking for the new wonder doper cause Roglic couldn't do it and lo and behold they had Vingegaard all along.

I guess Dumoulin refused the special treatment or did DSM allready used it on him and they could't improve any further?

 

[topcat]

Here’s an idea: train your ass off, cheat your ass off and still get hammered. It would leave a hollow feeling, some ppl would even quit.

 

[ElDesordenado]

What do you want the man to say? The same as Pogacar? It's the dumbest take yet:
"I think we have many controls to prove them wrong,” Pogačar said. “I know, for example, that yesterday, I had three controls in one day – two before the stage and one after. So I think that gives enough weight to prove them wrong.”
Everyone, Pogacar is tested clean, close the clinic

I think it's a pretty smart answer from Vingegaard actually - from his perspective it's an effective way of getting his point across. But when he and others refer to systematic doping as something that happened before and during the Armstrong era and has since disappeared, that makes me skeptical because of the recent cases I mentioned in my post. I wish more journalists would point that out and research more carefully, not only in interviews with the athletes and sports directors, but also when interviewing university physiologists etc who make similar claims.

 

[Rob5091]

Jumbo is starting to lose the plot - https://www.ouest-france.fr/tour-de...t-madiot-229ad792-27f3-11ee-a0ad-0eea9464400c

We all know the bowl comment is about "Pogi's Porridge (The Breakfast of Champions)"

 

[Rob5091]

My favorite idea must be the idea that after PDBF Jumbo specifically started looking for the new wonder doper cause Roglic couldn't do it and lo and behold they had Vingegaard all along.

That's "Big Engine Vingegaard" who just needed to lose the fat and get a better TT bike. (Mmm ... sounds familiar)

 

[ElDesordenado]

I just hope it is.
To be honest I used to roam this forum like a maniac in the past and I've always been convinced each and every rider is using doping in cycling. My life changed and I don't have time to be on here all year anymore and also no interest to do so. I do like to check on here during the TdF while I follow cycling the entire year, but it just gets so lively on here during the TdF
Anways while I've been away from this forum and have switched to listening to cycling podcasts instead, since I can do that while I'm driving/running/walking etc. I noticed I did start to change my stance on this. I've always been a person that tries not to judge until sentenced which is ofcourse hard in reality, but I do know that it doesn't help me one bit when I watch a sport and with every great performance I'm spiralling down the 'they are doping and they dope the best etc. etc." All this while there is no proof they are doing it. What if they are clean?

I must admit that listening to loads of podcasts with armchair specialist, ex-riders, journalists, Ds's etc. also changed my opinion on this. I actually do think the sport changed over the last decade. For how much it has changed I don't know, but my gut feeling is that it's actually in a good spot, but there is also plenty of reason to remain sceptical. At the highest levels there will always be cheaters, there will always be people that try to win at all costs.

Just like you guys I don't have proof that it's clean, just like you don't have proof it's dirty. All I know is that Jumbo has never declined any requests or cameras from any journalist and that does work in their favour in my opinion. Unlike Sky they have remained transparent all the way so far. This is just my opinion and I'm fully aware that most on here will find me incredibly naive.

I understand that perspective. But after a few weeks of Danish TdF coverage where the elephant in the room is hardly ever mentioned, I think a forum like this has a lot of value - at least for me. Experts like Rolf Sørensen and Armstrong (who's now a guest commentator for a Danish tabloid) can talk for hours about the tiniest mechanical or tactical details, while there's no mention of pharmaceuticals. And understandably so, I guess, because it's a difficult issue to cover - but not adressing it makes the coverage lose credibility. So while you left this thread for a while to get a break from all the doping talk, I stopped watching the race after the time trial because I found what I was seeing and how it was being presented to be not credible - given the history of the sport and the facts available.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I guess Dumoulin refused the special treatment or did DSM allready used it on him and they could't improve any further?

It's still nebulous and controversial how much enhancement you can account solely on doping. In short can you make roadrunners out of donkeys ? Or to stay on topic, can you make Vingegaard 3mn faster on 22km just by stuffing him with pills and turning a knob ?

I think injuries and medical difficulties probably account for plateauing or regressing (doping or not) in Dumoulin's case, followed by a loss of motivation afterwards. I wasn't following cycling too closely in that period but he never really came back in consistent and uninterrupted form post 2019, did he ? So it's hard to use him as a baseline there.

There's a lot of occult Froome exegesis on his "real" (assuming massive doping) level now that he is only riding with mundane results for massive wages, but he also had a serious injury at the hinge of his prime and fall. Maybe the simplest explanation is that with how elite and compact the top level is now, you're liable to be distanced at the first major injury and it's harder to come back (PEDs or not, though obviously there's a whole range of PEDs primarily useful for faster recovery).

Especially so in the context of the three GT because the prep planning has become so refined and stringent you need to be healthy on the whole run up to them.

COVID or "long COVID" also was jammed in there and while I don't know where the science stands exactly on the extent of it, several athletes did report long lasting consequences impacting their fitness.

 

[nightowl]

My favorite idea must be the idea that after PDBF Jumbo specifically started looking for the new wonder doper cause Roglic couldn't do it and lo and behold they had Vingegaard all along.

Well it’s hardly odd that a big GC team would be looking for and developing new GC talents while still having a top contender on the team. Especially as Roglic was already nearly 31 at the time.

And let’s not forget that Roglic was going just as well, if not better than Pogacar in 2020, and really should’ve beaten him but he crumbled on the last climb for some reason or other. He was going just as well, if not better than Pogacar in-season in 2021 but crashed out of the Tour. And in 2022 he was going just as well, if not better than Vingegaard just before the Tour as well - before crashing badly again, after which Vingegaard won. Clearly Jumbo had a good program going and were bringing Vingegaard up on it as well - because after all 2 genuine GC threats are better than 1 - but Roglic was still very much the main focus right up until his 2022 crash. Then after Vingegaard won and Roglic suffered a career-threatening injury at the Vuelta of course Vingegaard became the primary focus of the team.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Tom Dumoulin gave it away last night in Vive le Velo on Sporza:

Tom Dumoulin keek vol bewondering naar Jonas Vingegaard in "de beste tijdrit ooit": "Dit was tijdritporno" | sporza

Tadej Pogacar en Jonas Vingegaard losten elkaar twee weken lang van geen vin. Aan elkaar gewaagd in een spannend secondenspel voor geel in Parijs. Dat scenario werd in de tijdrit plots abrupt verstoord door een fenomenale uithaal van de Deense geletruidrager. Ook in Vive le Vélo zochten ze naar...

sporza.be

translated:
"This was time trial porno"

We, men of culture, all know one thing about porno:
it's fake.

Yellowed?

Well, Pogacar looks kind of cute in white, and is apparently the fans favourite rider.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Vingegaard is Radioactive Man.
Pogacar is Fall Out Boy.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I guess Dumoulin refused the special treatment or did DSM allready used it on him and they could't improve any further?

Dumoulin's biggest problem was always between his ears. Apparently that was Vingegaard's problem early on as well, but they fixed him. Too bad about Dumoulin.

 

[Savant12]

What training secrets are given away by revealing power data?
Pog’s is a lot of Z2 (apparently) with some hard efforts. Is there a top secret training plan out there which can put you above 7w/kg? Cause I don’t buy it’s all nutritional and aero.

 

[iceblink]

Just like you guys I don't have proof that it's clean, just like you don't have proof it's dirty. All I know is that Jumbo has never declined any requests or cameras from any journalist and that does work in their favour in my opinion. Unlike Sky they have remained transparent all the way so far. This is just my opinion and I'm fully aware that most on here will find me incredibly naive.

What's the *** obsession with Sky still? And what do you mean Jumbo have remained "transparent all the way so far" - like how? Have they released all their power data or something similar that I missed? Sky, Brailsford and British Cycling generally was massively media exposed around years 2008-2012, especially for London Olympics era, practically in your face if you were living in UK watching TV. I'm not sure what you mean by Jumbo being so transparent in comparison.

Let's see if Vingegaard wants to keep being interviewed after 100th time he's asked if he's clean.

I mean Sky were especially under scrutiny because it was post Armstrong years, if they'd come out with the performances of some riders today I can barely imagine the media frenzy, Jumbo and UAE are lucky it's relatively mild up to now.

 

[Rackham]

Just like you guys I don't have proof that it's clean, just like you don't have proof it's dirty. All I know is that Jumbo has never declined any requests or cameras from any journalist and that does work in their favour in my opinion. Unlike Sky they have remained transparent all the way so far. This is just my opinion and I'm fully aware that most on here will find me incredibly naive.

We do actually have evidence they're juiced (although we lack the specifics regarding how), i.e. it's right there in front of our eyes with their inhumane level.

Pogačar was already viewed as a bit of a joke (again, people regularly laughing at his 'performances' with the usual amount of incredulity one can expect when a single rider demolishes the field), but Vingegaard just upped the suspension of disbelief to a "no man has been here before" area 51 of pro cycling. His ITT is simply not plausible, possible or believable. The gap between Vingegaard & Wout van Aert (who was third) in terms of average speed was pretty much the same gap between Wout van Aert... & riders who finished 100th or thereabouts. So do you really think 100 pros are all sh*t descenders & sh*t at corning on their TT bike? Because that's what the "Jonas gained time through his bike handling!" cheerleaders want us to believe.

You can enjoy the show as much as you wish (or even support the rider, i.e. it's tv entertainment, after all) but there's just no way a guy who was a bit of a bum until he turned 23/24 can suddenly start atomizing the Tour de France by 10 minutes (when viewed through a prism without Pog in the picture). Or is it 12 minutes? i.e. when viewed without UAE riders (aka Gianetti's UAE of course, with everything he brings to the table in terms of a well documented clinical approach to cycling).

Jacques Anquetil doped, Merckx doped, Fignon doped, Indurain doped, Armstrong doped, Contador doped, Froome doped. All documented dopers from successive cycling eras. And the funny part? All had the exact same propaganda as well, or at least variation on the theme: they trained hard, they were very professional & their equipment was meticulously prepped. So it's not 'new' when a dominant team & rider start peddling (pun unintended) the 'we're just better pros' angle. We've heard all this before.

What more can I say? I guess all things being equal, Vingegaard might just 'inspire' some other would-be mad scientists to prep a new rival for 2024 & beyond, i.e. thus perpetuating the arms race & reaching (potentially) new heights & speeds. I mean without intervention from the authorities, that's where we're heading.

 

[NFTtiddies]

It's still nebulous and controversial how much enhancement you can account solely on doping. In short can you make roadrunners out of donkeys ? Or to stay on topic, can you make Vingegaard 3mn faster on 22km just by stuffing him with pills and turning a knob ?

I think injuries and medical difficulties probably account for plateauing or regressing (doping or not) in Dumoulin's case, followed by a loss of motivation afterwards. I wasn't following cycling too closely in that period but he never really came back in consistent and uninterrupted form post 2019, did he ? So it's hard to use him as a baseline there.

There's a lot of occult Froome exegesis on his "real" (assuming massive doping) level now that he is only riding with mundane results for massive wages, but he also had a serious injury at the hinge of his prime and fall. Maybe the simplest explanation is that with how elite and compact the top level is now, you're liable to be distanced at the first major injury and it's harder to come back (PEDs or not, though obviously there's a whole range of PEDs primarily useful for faster recovery).

Especially so in the context of the three GT because the prep planning has become so refined and stringent you need to be healthy on the whole run up to them.

COVID or "long COVID" also was jammed in there and while I don't know where the science stands exactly on the extent of it, several athletes did report long lasting consequences impacting their fitness.

Spot on! Women's contracts include clauses that allow the contracts to be terminated should they get pregnant.

 

[iceblink]

We do actually have evidence they're juiced (although we lack the specifics regarding how), i.e. it's right there in front of our eyes with their inhumane level.


Jacques Anquetil doped, Merckx doped, Fignon doped, Indurain doped, Armstrong doped, Contador doped, Froome doped. All documented dopers from successive cycling eras. And the funny part? All had the exact same propaganda as well, or at least variation on the theme: they trained hard, they were very professional & their equipment was meticulously prepped. So it's not 'new' when a dominant team & rider start peddling (pun unintended) the 'we're just better pros' angle. We've heard all this before.

Froome never doped like the other guys, and his anomalous salbutamol finding was shown to be very flawed by an actual scientific study (I guess this forum has its fair share of anti-science conspiracy theorists though)

His performances weren't that abnormal either, not compared to 1990s and Armstrong, and now Pogacar and Vingegaard.

So yes you're correct that it's obvious with the huge time trial wins of Pogacar and Vingegaard and other performances which haven't been seen since 20 years ago that something is amiss. But this constant comparison with Sky and Froome, Thomas etc with their modest performances is just crazy, irrational and simply makes this whole forum the joke that many outsiders consider it is.

Irrational unscientific lunatics with nationalist agendas mostly, rather that sensible considered rational/scientfic arguments about the evidence before us.