Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[RownhamHill]

Sky is preparing riders in a new way, it greatly assists those who don't respond to traditional "therapy" but can hurt traditional responders if they are forced off blood vectoring to the new system.

It's a long bow I agree but possible.

I don't think it's a long bow at all. The question is though, what's the new 'system' look like, and how legal is it?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sky is preparing riders in a new way, it greatly assists those who don't respond to traditional "therapy" but can hurt traditional responders if they are forced off blood vectoring to the new system.

It's a long bow I agree but possible.

It was actually our lizard overlords that did, but that is by the by.

There seems to be a desperate attempt to establish a false narrative here. The conspiracists would have you believe Sky were doping him during his training periods with them, so logic follows that once signed, they would continue with the same doping programme that lead to his break out season in 2012 in 2013.

It makes no sense to change his medication or cease it once signed, however a for a rider doping independently of a team it makes much more sense, given the greater scrutiny at the higher level, and on a much fatter contract.

 

[Nathan12]

I don't think it's a long bow at all. The question is though, what's the new 'system' look like, and how legal is it?

Fat-strippers, most likely. Clever because they'd have no effect obviously on the BP.

 

[Hawkwood]

* 45,000 GBP on research

Sorry I don't want to interrupt this discussion, but £45,000 for research! Where did this figure come from? I've done research funding bids and this amount wouldn't get a junior lecturer out of bed for even half a year.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sorry I don't want to interrupt this discussion, but £45,000 for research! Where did this figure come from? I've done research funding bids and this amount wouldn't get a junior lecturer out of bed for even half a year.

You're telling me junior lecturers are earning upwards of 90k GBP pa? Right.

They spent 900,000 GBP on PR, if that makes you feel any better.

 

[ralphbert]

I don't think it's a long bow at all. The question is though, what's the new 'system' look like, and how legal is it?

Let's say there is two types of athletes:
Group 1: Low natural hemocrit but with high efficiency, they go ok because there high efficiency makes the most of the oxygen they can get.
Group 2: High natural hemocrit but with low efficiency, they go ok because the large amounts of oxygen offsets there lower efficiency.

Blood vectoring helps group 1 a lot because they have more head room to jack the hemocrit and there natural efficiency turns them in to supermen when combined with more oxygen.

Group 2 suffer in this environment because they have no head room to raise the hemocrit before hitting the cut off and all there competitors are suddenly flying.

Now say blood vectoring falls out if favor due to bio passport or whatever and the new drugs like aicar and gw1516 now start manipulating the gross efficiency rather than hemocrit. The landscape changes and now a different type of athlete comes to the fore.

The myth of the level playing field strikes again.

 

[Hawkwood]

You're telling me junior lecturers are earning upwards of 90k GBP pa? Right.

They spent 900,000 GBP on PR, if that makes you feel any better.

No, that's not how full economic costing for research bids works. The costs of pension, tax and National Insurance contributions, office space, admin support, computing and other equipment, plus all other overheads have to be factored in. I've done the finance side of research funding bids in a university. For one bid we did in the 1990s the computer for the researcher cost £20k!

 

[Hawkwood]

No, that's not how full economic costing for research bids works. The costs of pension, tax and National Insurance contributions, office space, admin support, computing and other equipment, plus all other overheads have to be factored in. I've done the finance side of research funding bids in a university. For one bid we did in the 1990s the computer for the researcher cost £20k!

Sorry should have added that the above is for office based research, if you need a lab then £45k won't buy you much at all.

 

[martinvickers]

Sky is preparing riders in a new way, it greatly assists those who don't respond to traditional "therapy" but can hurt traditional responders if they are forced off blood vectoring to the new system.

It's a long bow I agree but possible.

Let's be clear, I'm not arguing Sky didn't dope JTL. They may, they may not. What I am arguing is that a precipitative DROP in form and ability and 'numbers' under their care can't, realistially and of itself, be suggestive of their doping of him.

Whatever made him sh!t again, wasn't, in my view obviously connectable to Sky doping - which does not of itself rule out the idea that they were doping him, only that the values that have run the alarm are not realistically connectable to that possible doping.

Or to make it really simplistic. Take the 'hated' team out of it. Line up 5 cyclists - they all perform pretty well, let's say arbitrarily 5.6 W/Kg over 30 mins. Watch them race.

Now they all get signed to Team X, which may or may not dope. And while two or three riders are now putting out 6.1 W/Kg, one is putting out 4.7 W/kg. All the 6.1 boys have raised crit. the 4.7 lad's has plummeted.

Mister 4.7 is emphatically not the one that raises the suspicions about Team X, even though his values have varied far more (-0.9 W/KG) than the three (0.5 W/kg). Something has happened 4.7 - and it may well ring alarm bells about his 5.6 in the first place.

On a fundamental level, doping is about improving performance. It seems irrational to find proof of it in performance clearly dropping in the opposite direction.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

No, that's not how full economic costing for research bids works. The costs of pension, tax and National Insurance contributions, office space, admin support, computing and other equipment, plus all other overheads have to be factored in. I've done the finance side of research funding bids in a university. For one bid we did in the 1990s the computer for the researcher cost £20k!

Pedantically, "I wouldn't get out of bed for less than X" is used to indicate what someone would not be prepared to get out of bed for, for themselves - ie what they feel they are worth, ignoring the extraneous costs associated with their employment.

 

[maltiv]

Sky is preparing riders in a new way, it greatly assists those who don't respond to traditional "therapy" but can hurt traditional responders if they are forced off blood vectoring to the new system.

It's a long bow I agree but possible.

Or, more simply, Sky are mostly giving their juice to the British riders (along with the occasional Australian, but they're basically British anyway).

Look at all the Sky riders who have performed at a decent level this year. Every single one of them is British: Stannard, G, Froome, Wiggins, Swift, Kennaugh.

While basically every single non-British Sky rider has performed worse than expected: EBH, Nieve, Lopez, Sivtsov, Porte, Kiry...

 

[Hawkwood]

Pedantically, "I wouldn't get out of bed for less than X" is used to indicate what someone would not be prepared to get out of bed for, for themselves - ie what they feel they are worth, ignoring the extraneous costs associated with their employment.

Your point was they spent £45k on research, my point was that £45k doesn't get you much research.

 

[yespatterns]

Your point was they spent £45k on research, my point was that £45k doesn't get you much research.

For 45k, I will research it's effects on research.

 

[RownhamHill]

Or, more simply, Sky are mostly giving their juice to the British riders (along with the occasional Australian, but they're basically British anyway).

Look at all the Sky riders who have performed at a decent level this year. Every single one of them is British: Stannard, G, Froome, Wiggins, Swift, Kennaugh.

While basically every single non-British Sky rider has performed worse than expected: EBH, Nieve, Lopez, Sivtsov, Porte, Kiry...

You really are sad about EBH, aren't you? Do you think he will stay at Sky next year in the end?

 

[Nathan12]

Or, more simply, Sky are mostly giving their juice to the British riders (along with the occasional Australian, but they're basically British anyway).

Look at all the Sky riders who have performed at a decent level this year. Every single one of them is British: Stannard, G, Froome, Wiggins, Swift, Kennaugh.

While basically every single non-British Sky rider has performed worse than expected: EBH, Nieve, Lopez, Sivtsov, Porte, Kiry...

Interesting theory- though it doesn't make sense that Nieve, a key mountain domestique wouldn't be put on the internal programme if there was one. I think it's more likely that Froome and Porte have gone renegade, with the knowledge of some of the team.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Your point was they spent £45k on research, my point was that £45k doesn't get you much research.

Apparently it gets you multiple TdF wins, 6 month peaks the likes of which have not been seen before, and inexplicable drops in performance immediately after.

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Apparently it gets you multiple TdF wins, 6 month peaks the likes of which have not been seen before, and inexplicable drops in performance immediately after.

I'm going to spit in the soup and mention poor JTL, beloved Sky prodigy that did not produce.

I don't pretend to know the 'how' of Sky's incredible string of months-long transformations at *incredibly* low weight, but IMHO, they were not credible.

2014 hasn't seen the usual sky domination, so something has happened. Of course, it's not July yet.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'm going to spit in the soup and mention poor JTL, beloved Sky prodigy that did not produce.

I don't pretend to know the 'how' of Sky's incredible string of months-long transformations at *incredibly* low weight, but IMHO, they were not credible.

2014 hasn't seen the usual sky domination, so something has happened. Of course, it's not July yet.

I thought the new tests coming in - steroid profiles, etc, went some way in explaining sudden illnesses and drops in performance?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Or, more simply, Sky are mostly giving their juice to the British riders (along with the occasional Australian, but they're basically British anyway).

Look at all the Sky riders who have performed at a decent level this year. Every single one of them is British: Stannard, G, Froome, Wiggins, Swift, Kennaugh.

While basically every single non-British Sky rider has performed worse than expected: EBH, Nieve, Lopez, Sivtsov, Porte, Kiry...

lol you are so desperate on ebh aren't you? just face it he will never be a star. you are so chauvinist I can't even believe it. it has nothing to do with dope. what kind of bs argument would that be. not even us epostal was just doping their american riders. cycling isn't as racist as you are thank god.

 

[maltiv]

lol you are so desperate on ebh aren't you? just face it he will never be a star. you are so chauvinist I can't even believe it. it has nothing to do with dope. what kind of bs argument would that be. not even us epostal was just doping their american riders. cycling isn't as racist as you are thank god.

What? I just mentioned him as one of many non-British Sky riders who hasn't performed. Do you disagree?

I'm not saying I believe this theory, I answered a guy whose theory was that Skys dope only worked on those who don't respond to traditional dope, which I find far more unlikely than that they are mostly doping british riders (which, incidentally, covers almost all the donkey to racehorse transformations).

 

[SafeBet]

Or, more simply, Sky are mostly giving their juice to the British riders (along with the occasional Australian, but they're basically British anyway).

Look at all the Sky riders who have performed at a decent level this year. Every single one of them is British: Stannard, G, Froome, Wiggins, Swift, Kennaugh.

While basically every single non-British Sky rider has performed worse than expected: EBH, Nieve, Lopez, Sivtsov, Porte, Kiry...

Cataldo has been ok though.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

What? I just mentioned him as one of many non-British Sky riders who hasn't performed. Do you disagree?

I'm not saying I believe this theory, I answered a guy whose theory was that Skys dope only worked on those who don't respond to traditional dope, which I find far more unlikely than that they are mostly doping british riders (which, incidentally, covers almost all the donkey to racehorse transformations).

which implies that you may actually believe it.

 

[DirtyWorks]

What? I just mentioned him as one of many non-British Sky riders who hasn't performed. Do you disagree?

I'm not saying I believe this theory, I answered a guy whose theory was that Skys dope only worked on those who don't respond to traditional dope, which I find far more unlikely than that they are mostly doping british riders (which, incidentally, covers almost all the donkey to racehorse transformations).

Another thing to consider is BC is Sky, so they can not enforce rules on British riders all year long. For example, they didn't do any testing before the 2012 Olympics. A little UCI complicity helps!

 

[Dalakhani]

Well about a month has passed since they said we will have a result on this in about a month. Anyone got any updates on this?

No. There's nothing in Google news or Bing news, and I can't find any recent articles mentioning him in L'equipe.

Maybe there's just nothing to report until an announcement is made?

 

[Race Radio]

Only thing I have heard on this is that JTL talking about a technicality that will let him off. I would not read too much into that though as every doper usually thinks the same thing.