JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

[D-Queued]

... I would say the people here know maybe 20% of whats going on behind the scenes, and that is a very generous 20%

edit: actually, lets be real, that figure is probably more like 1%

Given that there is more than one person that does appear to have access to real knowledge, no offense, but how do you see yourself in that equation?

The only real knowledge needed, of course, is 1) that doping has been and remains rampant; 2) most leaders of the sport are minimally complicit.

The more scarred and jaded the anti-doping 'veterans', the more closely filtered are any statements claiming doping is a thing of the past or that 'passing' a bunch of tests vindicates anything or anyone. Just like Pandora, hope does remain.

Right now my hope has been buoyed by JV's statements with respect to managing his team. But, that is a long way from euphoria.

I also cannot believe that even if JV did a Floyd expose, that this alone would bring down Lance. As noted elsewhere, Floyd is a newbie when it comes to detailing Lance's doping.

Dave.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Given that there is more than one person that does appear to have access to real knowledge, no offense, but how do you see yourself in that equation?

The only real knowledge needed, of course, is 1) that doping has been and remains rampant; 2) most leaders of the sport are minimally complicit.

The more scarred and jaded the anti-doping 'veterans', the more closely filtered are any statements claiming doping is a thing of the past or that 'passing' a bunch of tests vindicates anything or anyone. Just like Pandora, hope does remain.

Right now my hope has been buoyed by JV's statements with respect to managing his team. But, that is a long way from euphoria.

I also cannot believe that even if JV did a Floyd expose, that this alone would bring down Lance. As noted elsewhere, Floyd is a newbie when it comes to detailing Lance's doping.

Dave.

Also to add to that, JV was not on the team when FL was there, so he cannot directly backup Floyds story.

The only thing he can say for sure is to detail his own doping.
He can say LA doped, but in a public setting it would be his word against LA's (& all the apologists). He would quickly be dismissed by many within the sport.

Again I see no good reason for JV to make any public statement, indeed it would harm any ongoing case. The only place he needs to say anything is in front of the feds.

 

[Anonymous]

Given that there is more than one person that does appear to have access to real knowledge, no offense, but how do you see yourself in that equation?

The only real knowledge needed, of course, is 1) that doping has been and remains rampant; 2) most leaders of the sport are minimally complicit.

I meant more what is being done, or not being done between certain individuals etc. in terms of trying to combat doping. Rather than what is going on as far as doping goes.

How do I see myself? Im in the catagory that knows we dont know half as much as we think we know

Id say probably that there are people on this forum that know much more than they post, like JV I guess, but they keep certain things to themselves because of integrity towards their source, or whatever reason they choose, etc etc. Even the people who post on here who say they are in the know, and are beleived to be "in the know", probably only post 20% of what they know. I for one know loads of things I would never post on here, and I, by my own admission know nothing, so the ones who really do know something are keeping plenty back.

In other words.. we know nothing

 

[pedaling squares]

....Why don't you ask JV what is the point? I sent him a PM asking for Walsh's, Kimmage's, and Howman's contact info which I'm waiting on.

You think the JV thread was refuted?

The other thread where JV responded, this one, is to inform YOU of what is going on.

As for hiding, JV has my contact info and my phone number. I'm just a fan, but I'm not hiding.

JV was here, the defenders of the glacial pace of change or the recurrance of the cancer defended him and mocked me, and now here we are (me and a few others anyway) trying to discern where procycliing is.

Aside from the very little you offered, anything else?

Goodbye, I'll watch for the sniping from the peanut gallery.

I won't contact JV directly as I don't have an issue with his action or lack thereof and don't have a need to know other details of his life. Yes, I do think the 'spineless' thread was refuted. The man came here to publicly address the thread and then contacted his biggest critic directly. That's not cowardice, that's pretty stand up action. I'll correct you on a couple of points. The people who stood up for JV here are not doping apologists nor defenders of change at a glacial pace. We're perhaps better described as realists who understand that Vaughters is accountable to people above him and responsible for people below him. Blowing the lid off might have great short term effect but a poor medium term effect on people who depend on him. Would it have a better long term effect than his current path? I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that he has a better handle on it than do you or I. My other correction - I wasn't referring to you as the person hiding - that was Botany Bay, who demanded that JV "man up" by contacting him and answering his questions. When you do that behind the veil of anonymity, it's not so manly.

 

[Anonymous]

I won't contact JV directly as I don't have an issue with his action or lack thereof and don't have a need to know other details of his life. Yes, I do think the 'spineless' thread was refuted. The man came here to publicly address the thread and then contacted his biggest critic directly. That's not cowardice, that's pretty stand up action. I'll correct you on a couple of points. The people who stood up for JV here are not doping apologists nor defenders of change at a glacial pace. We're perhaps better described as realists who understand that Vaughters is accountable to people above him and responsible for people below him. Blowing the lid off might have great short term effect but a poor medium term effect on people who depend on him. Would it have a better long term effect than his current path? I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that he has a better handle on it than do you or I. My other correction - I wasn't referring to you as the person hiding - that was Botany Bay, who demanded that JV "man up" by contacting him and answering his questions. When you do that behind the veil of anonymity, it's not so manly.

Couldnt have said it better myself, in fact I tried, and said it far worse.

 

[Anonymous]

so Barrus, where do you stand on the obscene gesture?

I doubt such wise guy stuff will cut it in your chosen profession.

Also it is understood, by the context in which it WAS used to be an obscene gesture.

I'll forgive the ostriches for not seeing it.

Lame...

So Barrus, how about it?

With your vast experience you gonna let the obscene gesture by the guy who couldn't hack it, stand?

Obviously, you don't understand my chosen profession. My answer was precisely related to your statement. Words have meaning, and words not present don't count. If you think otherwise, I would suggest you attend one class at a law school to see the folly of your statement. In no way did you intimate intent in your original statement. You precisely referred to the picture as containing an "obscene gesture" which it clearly does not. Stay in the cheap seats junior, and leave logic to the big boys.

 

[tifosa]

Goodbye, I'll watch for the sniping from the peanut gallery.

As the great Dan Hicks would sing,
How can I miss you when you won't go away?


That's rhetorical, btw.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I think all the 'filtering' that's been going on over the last few days on this thread, and the previous, has resulted in one key point.

That being, if JV is going to play the 'clean team' card and take on the role of an anti-doping DS then it can be expected of him to perform certain actions - the most important of which would be honest disclosure of his own doping history. He doesn't need to name names or implicate anyone. I feell that this honesty is necessary to legitimately present himself as anti-doping.

Failing that disclosure, I get the distinct feeling we're all getting smoke blown up our collective poopers.

This is not solely me wanting this from him, his stance and presentation demands it of him.

If he wasn't taking on this persona, I wouldn't have an issue with JV at all. He's doing a good job, hiring young talent that I like to watch, is obviously intelligent and well-spoken, and is clearly dedicated to the sport. All good.

It's the wink-wink, nudge-nudge factor I can't stomach. It's the lying. I think that's what's driven a couple of our esteemed colleagues around the bend. All the g*dd*mn lying that's taken over cycling.

It litterally makes me want to puke...

 

[tifosa]

nothing to see here... move along

I double posted. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[Anonymous]

He and his team are public figures. You don't think he has an obligation to ensure that the product they are selling is what they say it is.

JV is not letting the media do its job. There are legitimate questions and he isn't answering them in a completely transparent manner.

In all sincerity, I believe you're overthinking this.

Now, I admit with the GJ, there may be waiting involved. But this waiting is not good for the sport. Uncertainty I don't believe is good, but then again maybe I'm nuts if you look at the people on these forums who would consider doping.

You clearly don't understand marketing either. He has a job to convince you his product is what he says it is in terms of obligation to sponsors. You continue to live in a world where everyone is expected to play fair and apologize prior to being caught. Grow up little fella, the world is a big mean place and it eats up and spits out people as idealistic as are you.

 

[Anonymous]

I think all the 'filtering' that's been going on over the last few days on this thread, and the previous, has resulted in one key point.

That being, if JV is going to play the 'clean team' card and take on the role of an anti-doping DS then it can be expected of him to perform certain actions - the most important of which would be honest disclosure of his own doping history. He doesn't need to name names or implicate anyone. I feell that this honesty is necessary to legitimately present himself as anti-doping.

Failing that disclosure, I get the distinct feeling we're all getting smoke blown up our collective poopers.

This is not solely me wanting this from him, his stance and presentation demands it of him.

If he wasn't taking on this persona, I wouldn't have an issue with JV at all. He's doing a good job, hiring young talent that I like to watch, is obviously intelligent and well-spoken, and is clearly dedicated to the sport. All good.

It's the wink-wink, nudge-nudge factor I can't stomach. It's the lying. I think that's what's driven a couple of our esteemed colleagues around the bend. All the g*dd*mn lying that's taken over cycling.

It litterally makes me want to puke...

I don't completely disagree with this, however, it is easy to say from the cheap seats. You are asking him to commit professional suicide, and thereby cease his means of providing for his family and team. Its easy to say "hey, throw it all away because we as fans want you to be honest so we can feel satisfied in our opinions about what is happening in cycling." It is quite another to actually be the person falling on the sword. FLandis had nothing to lose. JV does, and I for one think the idea that he should place your ideal over his survival is fanciful and ignorant of the gravity of the consequences of such an action. The fact is that most people fail when the rubber meats the road in their lives in even less drastic moral decisions.

I really just don't like the sideburns. Seriously.

 

[BroDeal]

I think all the 'filtering' that's been going on over the last few days on this thread, and the previous, has resulted in one key point.

That being, if JV is going to play the 'clean team' card and take on the role of an anti-doping DS then it can be expected of him to perform certain actions - the most important of which would be honest disclosure of his own doping history. He doesn't need to name names or implicate anyone. I feell that this honesty is necessary to legitimately present himself as anti-doping.

Failing that disclosure, I get the distinct feeling we're all getting smoke blown up our collective poopers.

This is not solely me wanting this from him, his stance and presentation demands it of him.

If he wasn't taking on this persona, I wouldn't have an issue with JV at all. He's doing a good job, hiring young talent that I like to watch, is obviously intelligent and well-spoken, and is clearly dedicated to the sport. All good.

It's the wink-wink, nudge-nudge factor I can't stomach. It's the lying. I think that's what's driven a couple of our esteemed colleagues around the bend. All the g*dd*mn lying that's taken over cycling.

It litterally makes me want to puke...

+1

This is why I don't trust JV, or at least this was what led me to not trusting anything he says:

Anyone who can prance around as though he is a stodgy professor of English literature at a British university circa 1930 has spent way too much time planning how he wants to be perceived by others. Anything he says about doping or his teams' cleanliness has to be viewed as nothing more than manipulation of his team's public image in the same vein as his manilupation of his own image.

 

[buckwheat]

You clearly don't understand marketing either. He has a job to convince you his product is what he says it is in terms of obligation to sponsors. You continue to live in a world where everyone is expected to play fair and apologize prior to being caught. Grow up little fella, the world is a big mean place and it eats up and spits out people as idealistic as are you.

Spare me the condescension. Your post before this one set up a straw man.

Riis came out as an unworthy champion. JV is coming out as unworthy of our belief.

The idea of career suicide is simply an excuse and not true. His fear helps make it a potentially self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[buckwheat]

Obviously, you don't understand my chosen profession. My answer was precisely related to your statement. Words have meaning, and words not present don't count. If you think otherwise, I would suggest you attend one class at a law school to see the folly of your statement. In no way did you intimate intent in your original statement. You precisely referred to the picture as containing an "obscene gesture" which it clearly does not. Stay in the cheap seats junior, and leave logic to the big boys.

Get in front of a judge and try that nonsense pal.

Congrats on making it to thanksgiving in law school.

With your attitude you are the personification of JV in the photo.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I don't completely disagree with this, however, it is easy to say from the cheap seats. You are asking him to commit professional suicide, and thereby cease his means of providing for his family and team. Its easy to say "hey, throw it all away because we as fans want you to be honest so we can feel satisfied in our opinions about what is happening in cycling." It is quite another to actually be the person falling on the sword. FLandis had nothing to lose. JV does, and I for one think the idea that he should place your ideal over his survival is fanciful and ignorant of the gravity of the consequences of such an action. The fact is that most people fail when the rubber meats the road in their lives in even less drastic moral decisions.

I really just don't like the sideburns. Seriously.

I completely understand your points, intimately - I raced and ended up working in cycling for most of a decade.

My point is that I'm not asking him to do anything. His stance demands it of him, if he wants to maintain credibility or profit off of 'carrying the torch'.

I really don't care if he does or not. What's another individual in the growing peloton of pros who have lied to fans and disillusioned millions? I think JV stands out so much because of that fact - the ever-increasing numbers of liars that continually sully cycling.

We're looking for someone who is not there, and when we realize they're not there we get frustrated and want to yell "f*ck you!". Or just walk away, feeling sh*tty...



PS: The side-burns are a little goofy.

 

[buckwheat]

I won't contact JV directly as I don't have an issue with his action or lack thereof and don't have a need to know other details of his life. Yes, I do think the 'spineless' thread was refuted. The man came here to publicly address the thread and then contacted his biggest critic directly. That's not cowardice, that's pretty stand up action. I'll correct you on a couple of points. The people who stood up for JV here are not doping apologists nor defenders of change at a glacial pace. We're perhaps better described as realists who understand that Vaughters is accountable to people above him and responsible for people below him. Blowing the lid off might have great short term effect but a poor medium term effect on people who depend on him. Would it have a better long term effect than his current path? I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that he has a better handle on it than do you or I. My other correction - I wasn't referring to you as the person hiding - that was Botany Bay, who demanded that JV "man up" by contacting him and answering his questions. When you do that behind the veil of anonymity, it's not so manly.

And the whole other thread went to the realism of the choices of many ordinary people who are faced with far more severe consequences than JV will ever face.

 

[Anonymous]

Get in front of a judge and try that nonsense pal.

Congrats on making it to thanksgiving in law school.

With your attitude you are the personification of JV in the photo.

Hey, keep showing the ignorance. It makes me laugh.

 

[Anonymous]

I completely understand your points, intimately - I raced and ended up working in cycling for most of a decade.

My point is that I'm not asking him to do anything. His stance demands it of him, if he wants to maintain credibility or profit off of 'carrying the torch'.

I really don't care if he does or not. What's another individual in the growing peloton of pros who have lied to fans and disillusioned millions? I think JV stands out so much because of that fact - the ever-increasing numbers of liars that continually sully cycling.

We're looking for someone who is not there, and when we realize they're not there we get frustrated and want to yell "f*ck you!". Or just walk away, feeling sh*tty...



PS: The side-burns are a little goofy.

Like I said, I agree with the tenor of your post. I just think the decision is easier when we are not the ones making it. I also thought the whole "spineless" comment in the original thread, and buckwheat's flogging the monkey over and over was a bit too much. I am willing to bet in person, one of those guys or both would walk away with an autograph.

 

[Anonymous]

And the whole other thread went to the realism of the choices of many ordinary people who are faced with far more severe consequences than JV will ever face.

I would be willing to bet that if we examined your life, we would find plenty to critique too. (I know there would be plenty to critique about mine if it were in the public domain) Its easy to say what someone should do when you don't have to take the bullet.

I think his clean talk should be backed up with action also, but I don't know that I believe that includes destroying his career. And it would destroy his career. One that he has dedicated his life to. You didn't invest the hours. He did. It is much easier for you to throw them away, you didn't live them.

The sideburns suck though. I can't take issue with that.

 

[buckwheat]

Obviously, you don't understand my chosen profession. My answer was precisely related to your statement. Words have meaning, and words not present don't count. If you think otherwise, I would suggest you attend one class at a law school to see the folly of your statement. In no way did you intimate intent in your original statement. You precisely referred to the picture as containing an "obscene gesture" which it clearly does not. Stay in the cheap seats junior, and leave logic to the big boys.

good grief..

 

[buckwheat]

I would be willing to bet that if we examined your life, we would find plenty to critique too. (I know there would be plenty to critique about mine if it were in the public domain) Its easy to say what someone should do when you don't have to take the bullet.
I think his clean talk should be backed up with action also, but I don't know that I believe that includes destroying his career. And it would destroy his career. One that he has dedicated his life to. You didn't invest the hours. He did. It is much easier for you to throw them away, you didn't live them.

The sideburns suck though. I can't take issue with that.

Destroying his career?

How is that?

I have taken bigger risks against greater odds than JV in my last job and in previous arenas.. I do not care whether you believe that or not.

 

[buckwheat]

In no way did you intimate intent in your original statement

.............

 

[Anonymous]

Destroying his career?

How is that?

I have taken bigger risks against greater odds than JV in my last job and in previous arenas.. I do not care whether you believe that or not.

Sorry, but I don't. You can google Jonathan Vaughters and many pictures come up. I would bet if we googled yours, the results would be pretty unimpressive. You may have made difficult decisions in your life. Welcome to the world, we all have. However, you have never walked a day in his shoes, and it is very easy to say what he should or should not do.

I am not saying he shouldn't be more transparent, but the moral indignation expressed in your opinions is really overboard.

 

[Anonymous]

.............

I know bigger words than you do (and what is and is not important in the law) and somehow I am JV? Why not throw out the conservative "ivory tower" rhetoric?

Okay, if that is who you need me to be to justify your self image, have at it.

 

[buckwheat]

Sorry, but I don't. You can google Jonathan Vaughters and many pictures come up. I would bet if we googled yours, the results would be pretty unimpressive. You may have made difficult decisions in your life. Welcome to the world, we all have. However, you have never walked a day in his shoes, and it is very easy to say what he should or should not do.

I am not saying he shouldn't be more transparent, but the moral indignation expressed in your opinions is really overboard.

Having courage is dependent on a public image?

You having to prove a point has overshadowed your thought processes.

Many anonymous people have courage. Many who'll come back in a google search don't.

YOU sound like the guy that wants an autograph from JV.

As to walking in JV's shoes, if he can't stand the heat... well you know.