JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

[buckwheat]

Well I am certainly not in any of the groups that you mention within the highlighted paragraph. Yet I do not see what you are trying to do.

I have asked yourself (& BotanyBay) what you expect to happen?
So, JV admits to doping - we already know that. Says USPS doped, we already know that.

Of course now PMcQ says JV is crazy, hurting the sport, LA says he has gone mad, drinking too much wine, Phil&Paul say its a sad day for cycling etc.

JV is an owner of a team - that he decided was going to try and do it clean - that is all, anything else is stuff added on that he is not representing.
His only obligation is to his team, which is his riders & his emplyees.

He and his team are public figures. You don't think he has an obligation to ensure that the product they are selling is what they say it is.

JV is not letting the media do its job. There are legitimate questions and he isn't answering them in a completely transparent manner.

In all sincerity, I believe you're overthinking this.

Now, I admit with the GJ, there may be waiting involved. But this waiting is not good for the sport. Uncertainty I don't believe is good, but then again maybe I'm nuts if you look at the people on these forums who would consider doping.

 

[python]

Well I am certainly not in any of the groups that you mention within the highlighted paragraph. Yet I do not see what you are trying to do.

I have asked yourself (& BotanyBay) what you expect to happen?
So, JV admits to doping - we already know that. Says USPS doped, we already know that.

Of course now PMcQ says JV is crazy, hurting the sport, LA says he has gone mad, drinking too much wine, Phil&Paul say its a sad day for cycling etc.

JV is an owner of a team - that he decided was going to try and do it clean - that is all, anything else is stuff added on that he is not representing.
His only obligation is to his team, which is his riders & his emplyees.

i now feel like i felt when you endlessly engaged bpc...feel perplexed. why do you engage persons who showed no reasonable judgment of the facts already presented multiple times but who jump at the opportunity to pour volumes of the same verbiage every time you engage them ? they thrive on being quoted. an apparent index of their self worth. please, don't oblige the madness as it's exactly what it expects after another bout of baiting.

 

[Martin318is]

I can honestly see no value in keeping this thread open.

There has been nothing said for several pages that wasn't already said and it is lowering itself rapidly into a mire of aggression and delusion.

I am going to give it a chance and see if it can be brought back up to a civil discussion of the original topic. If however it continues to track the way it has in the last few hours it will be locked.

NOTE: I have CLEARLY said that the original topic of talking about JV is acceptable. I am saying that it is likely to be locked due to members insulting each other, wild tangents, and rampant trolling.

 

[BotanyBay]

I have asked yourself (& BotanyBay) what you expect to happen?
So, JV admits to doping - we already know that. Says USPS doped, we already know that.

I'm not sure what would happen if he does. But what we need, is for a series of guys like JV to step forward and spill it all. Forget Landis' motivations for a few minutes. He set-off one hell of a bomb. But we really needed an airstrike.

It would have been great if the guys like JV, Frankie, Julich, Barry, Hamilton (and so many more) would all come forward, come clean, name the names and ****ing blow the lid sky-****ing-high. Come out with so much damning stuff that guys like Och, Johan, Lance, etc would have one hell of a time refuting.

Instead, Landis' stuff was allowed to fall flat. So if you want to know what motivates me here, I'll be honest. I'm ****ed at Vaughters. Really ****ed.
If he wants to keep his business "his business" for the rest of his life, that's ****ing fine, but be kind enough to retire from the sport and go raise chickens somewhere. But as Buckwheat pointed-out, JV is indeed selling something. He's selling the idea that clean racing exists. And I'm not sure it does. Even if he and his team is clean, is Och clean? Is Johan clean? Is Riis Clean? Are the Schlecks clean? You think 'Vino is really clean? See my point?

So for me, I really need JV to step-up and spill. And I want his last phrase to be "Who's next? It's OK. You're safe. And I'll back you up, and so will all of these other guys."

If this were to happen, McQuaid would have an MI and Lance & friends would be the ones saying "no comment" for the rest of their pathetic lives.

JV, it's OK for you to step up and stand out.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He and his team are public figures. You don't think he has an obligation to ensure that the product they are selling is what they say it is.

JV is not letting the media do its job. There are legitimate questions and he isn't answering them in a completely transparent manner.

In all sincerity, I believe you're overthinking this.

Now, I admit with the GJ, there may be waiting involved. But this waiting is not good for the sport. Uncertainty I don't believe is good, but then again maybe I'm nuts if you look at the people on these forums who would consider doping.

Yet again I get no answer.

His obligation is to his riders & staff, to ensure they work in an environment that does not need to have PEDs to work.

His only obligation to the fans of the sport is to uphold that standard.

 

[python]

I can honestly see no value in keeping this thread open.

.

im for shutting it down as it's apparent there is nothing here that hasn't been addressed nor there is any value in hearing the offtopic grandstanding.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm not sure what would happen if he does. But what we need, is for a series of guys like JV to step forward and spill it all. Forget Landis' motivations for a few minutes. He set-off one hell of a bomb. But we really needed an airstrike.

It would have been great if the guys like JV, Frankie, Julich, Barry, Hamilton (and so many more) would all come forward, come clean, name the names and ****ing blow the lid sky-****ing-high. Come out with so much damning stuff that guys like Och, Johan, Lance, etc would have one hell of a time refuting.

Instead, Landis' stuff was allowed to fall flat. So if you want to know what motivates me here, I'll be honest. I'm ****ed at Vaughters. Really ****ed.
If he wants to keep his business "his business" for the rest of his life, that's ****ing fine, but be kind enough to retire from the sport and go raise chickens somewhere. But as Buckwheat pointed-out, JV is indeed selling something. He's selling the idea that clean racing exists. And I'm not sure it does. Even if he and his team is clean, is Och clean? Is Johan clean? Is Riis Clean? Are the Schlecks clean? You think 'Vino is really clean? See my point?

So for me, I really need JV to step-up and spill. And I want his last phrase to be "Who's next? It's OK. You're safe"

If this were to happen, McQuaid would have an MI and Lance & friends would be the ones saying "no comment" for the rest of their pathetic lives.

JV, it's OK for you to step up and stand out.

Actually, no - I do not see your point.

As you say in the blue - JV runs a team (he is not selling it) - that is all he is in control of, so that is all we can expect him to do.

The rest of your highlighted has nothing to do with JV - that is up to McQuaid.


Landis confession, fall flat? There is an investigation underway by a formidable force, I fully expect JV to be truthful if he is called.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

i now feel like i felt when you endlessly engaged bpc...feel perplexed. why do you engage persons who showed no reasonable judgment of the facts already presented multiple times but who jump at the opportunity to pour volumes of the same verbiage every time you engage them ? they thrive on being quoted. an apparent index of their self worth. please, don't oblige the madness as it's exactly what it expects after another bout of baiting.

Well I want to see if they do have a point - or if they are just engaged in semantics. I have directly asked (again) what the point is and finally received an answer.
I can dismiss a point I don't agree with but not one that I have yet to understand.

 

[lean mean &green]

Well I am certainly not in any of the groups that you mention within the highlighted paragraph. Yet I do not see what you are trying to do.

I have asked yourself (& BotanyBay) what you expect to happen?
So, JV admits to doping - we already know that. Says USPS doped, we already know that.

Of course now PMcQ says JV is crazy, hurting the sport, LA says he has gone mad, drinking too much wine, Phil&Paul say its a sad day for cycling etc.

JV is an owner of a team - that he decided was going to try and do it clean - that is all, anything else is stuff added on that he is not representing.
His only obligation is to his team, which is his riders & his emplyees.

i'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. a man has many responsibilities and they are not just to his employer or even just to his family. he should act in such a manner that is socially responsible as well. he has to respect the local and larger community he belongs to. he has to reconcile each of these interests with one another and at times it's an enormous burden. JV is a good example of how they're sometimes in direct conflict with one another. it is finding the right compromise when being pulled in many different directions that reveals character and crystallizes your core values and beliefs. ultimately every man has to find the appropriate balance for himself. obviously buck has different interests and prioritizes these responsibilities differently than JV but i still can't tell JV, buckwheat, you, or anyone else on this forum what the right balance is, you're grown men and you'll have to figure it out for yourselves. when you do, you ought to be able to communicate it in a respectful way.

 

[BotanyBay]

Actually, no - I do not see your point.

As you say in the blue - JV runs a team (he is not selling it) - that is all he is in control of, so that is all we can expect him to do.

The rest of your highlighted has nothing to do with JV - that is up to McQuaid.


Landis confession, fall flat? There is an investigation underway by a formidable force, I fully expect

When you run a team, you're selling something: The team. The idea being to bring in more sponsorship revenue than you pay out in salary. You keep the rest. JV uses public relations such as media interviews to help sell such a product. His particular product is a "clean racing team". He uses the media quite often to help "sell" this product. He wants American sponsors, and he knows they are sensitive to the doping drama. So excuse me if I'm beginning to question the authenticity of the whole "clean racing" market positioning. The UCI's been trying to sell that too, and JV helps them sell it.

As far as cycling goes, Landis's claims fell 100% flat. Insane, angry, bitter, liar. I think McQuaid has used most of those terms to describe him at one time or another. And that's easy to do when it's one lone guy who drops a bomb. A single bomber is a cowardly terrorist. A squadron of them are a force to be recognized and dealt with.

 

[Martin318is]

When you run a team, you're selling something: The team. The idea being to bring in more sponsorship revenue than you pay out in salary. You keep the rest. JV uses public relations such as media interviews to help sell such a product. His particular product is a "clean racing team". He uses the media quite often to help "sell" this product. He wants American sponsors, and he knows they are sensitive to the doping drama. So excuse me if I'm beginning to question the authenticity of the whole "clean racing" market positioning. The UCI's been trying to sell that too, and JV helps them sell it.

You are answering your own question there. His brand is a clean cycling team within a sport that may or may not be clean - but if the sport is not clean then his team is an even better proposition for a sponsor. His obligation in terms of running the team is to portray IT as being clean and to ensure that it actually is.

At no time then does it become his role to prove that all of cycling is clean too. He is doing what he does for clean cycling because he feels it is right. You can't then turn around and say "but thats not enough!" - thats absurd.

regardless of this - how does anybody know that JV hasn't been told by his backers that they definitely want him to tell all when called to the Grand Jury but they would prefer it if he does not say anything in the press before hand?
This would make complete sense because if he DOES say something in the press then he has no cover from the courts and he immediately becomes another "lone nutter" target for the LA PR machine.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

When you run a team, you're selling something: The team. The idea being to bring in more sponsorship revenue than you pay out in salary. You keep the rest. JV uses public relations such as media interviews to help sell such a product. His particular product is a "clean racing team". He uses the media quite often to help "sell" this product. He wants American sponsors, and he knows they are sensitive to the doping drama. So excuse me if I'm beginning to question the authenticity of the whole "clean racing" market positioning. The UCI's been trying to sell that too, and JV helps them sell it.

As far as cycling goes, Landis's claims fell 100% flat. Insane, angry, bitter, liar. I think McQuaid has used most of those terms to describe him at one time or another. And that's easy to do when it's one lone guy who drops a bomb. A single bomber is a cowardly terrorist. A squadron of them are a force to be recognized and dealt with.

The Team - which he sells to a sponsor. Not the public or the fans.

So Garmin have a right to demand answers- no one else does.

The UCI are the ones trying to sell 'clean cycling' to the public - and unlike JVs proposition to potential sponsors - it is easy to highlight the BS from the UCI or McQuaid.

The only other obligation for JV is to tell the truth if called to testify by the Fed's.

 

[BotanyBay]

At no time then does it become his role to prove that all of cycling is clean too. He is doing what he does for clean cycling because he feels it is right. You can't then turn around and say "but thats not enough!" - thats absurd.

I can turn around and say that, because he doesn't just end it with saying he runs a clean team in an ocean of dirtiness. He's one of several who have the ability to stand up and help rid the sport of those who continue to drag it back down. He's one guy who could help turn it upside down while some other people shake it back and forth.

I do see your point though. Perhaps it's better for JV's own wallet to be the "clean" guy sailing in the cesspool. If that's his niche, then he should stick to his own story and do more to point fingers at the dark and evil waters the surround him. It'd only earn him more money.

I think that perhaps his sponsors have told him such things, or perhaps he was paid a settlement to never talk **** about a certain someone. I'd like to know why he still chooses what looks like Omerta.

If he's really such a close bud of Frankie's, then why don't the two of them sit down with Charles Pelkey or CN and explain that IM chat in greater detail (together)?

 

[Anonymous]

You are answering your own question there. His brand is a clean cycling team within a sport that may or may not be clean - but if the sport is not clean then his team is an even better proposition for a sponsor. His obligation in terms of running the team is to portray IT as being clean and to ensure that it actually is.

At no time then does it become his role to prove that all of cycling is clean too. He is doing what he does for clean cycling because he feels it is right. You can't then turn around and say "but thats not enough!" - thats absurd.

regardless of this - how does anybody know that JV hasn't been told by his backers that they definitely want him to tell all when called to the Grand Jury but they would prefer it if he does not say anything in the press before hand?
This would make complete sense because if he DOES say something in the press then he has no cover from the courts and he immediately becomes another "lone nutter" target for the LA PR machine.

exactly. This point though was raised fairly early on in the argument and ignored. I think people were hoping for something a little more dramatic than the court room, a Landis tell all type affair.

 

[BotanyBay]

The Team - which he sells to a sponsor. Not the public or the fans.

Compartmentalization. Something an addict uses to help justify his or her actions to others.

If you don't think the fans/public and the sponsor are intertwined, then you're just compartmentalizing. I'd call that co-dependent behavior. I suppose it fits the situation. We have all of these staunch apologists here, so why not another.

 

[BotanyBay]

exactly. This point though was raised fairly early on in the argument and ignored. I think people were hoping for something a little more dramatic than the court room, a Landis tell all type affair.

JV has not been brought into court. Nor has he been invited. And I assume he is not offering.

 

[Martin318is]

JV has not been brought into court. Nor has he been invited. And I assume he is not offering.

Wow! How do you know that?

 

[scribe]

He is Race Radio's spokesman?

 

[BotanyBay]

Wow! How do you know that?

I'll admit that I'm assuming here. But the mole has been pretty consistent in leaking everyone else who's been called-up (and we've always known beforehand). The media then confirms them by seeing them entering the courthouse.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Compartmentalization. Something an addict uses to help justify his or her actions to others.

If you don't think the fans/public and the sponsor are intertwined, then you're just compartmentalizing. I'd call that co-dependent behavior. I suppose it fits the situation. We have all of these staunch apologists here, so why not another.

Of course the fans and sponsors are intertwined - but you said 'sell' which is sponsors only. JV has no obligation to the fans except to do as he said - which is try and run a team in a 'clean' environment.

As for ad hominem in calling me an apologist - as one of the most staunch and consistent posters on anti-doping on these forums your view on my opinions is as accurate as your argument.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'll admit that I'm assuming here. But the mole has been pretty consistent in leaking everyone else who's been called-up (and we've always known beforehand). The media then confirms them by seeing them entering the courthouse.

JV will be interviewed by the Feds - he will not be subject to a GJ.

 

[BotanyBay]

As for ad hominem in calling me an apologist - as one of the most staunch and consistent posters on anti-doping on these forums your view on my opinions is as accurate as your argument.

I'll take that back and apologize to you. I get frustrated by the protectionism that seems to surround JV. I remember such an environment when Floyd first tested positive. Reams of data to support the idea that whiskey could skew his TE ratio, etc.

You're not an apologist, but I sure wish you'd be on board for wanting JV to be another to step forward in a significant way.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'll take that back and apologize to you. I get frustrated by the protectionism that seems to surround JV. I remember such an environment when Floyd first tested positive. Reams of data to support the idea that whiskey could skew his TE ratio, etc.

You're not an apologist, but I sure wish you'd be on board for wanting JV to be another to step forward in a significant way.

I keep asking - what can JV say publically that will bring things forward in a "significant way"?

I have already said JV does need to answer truthfully if called to testify in the ongoing investigation - that is the only place he needs to admit anything.

PS - appreciate the rest of your post.

 

[Anonymous]

I'll take that back and apologize to you. I get frustrated by the protectionism that seems to surround JV. I remember such an environment when Floyd first tested positive. Reams of data to support the idea that whiskey could skew his TE ratio, etc.

You're not an apologist, but I sure wish you'd be on board for wanting JV to be another to step forward in a significant way.

You dont need to be a JV apologist to know that there is a right and succesful way of tackling doping and a wrong way that will ultimately fail. The grand plan some people have for JV to come out, name names in the press, tell all, will achieve very little. 50% of the media will write him off as an idiot, the rest will listen but say hes hurting the sport, and the sport will carry on.

JV will know things, but at the moment, not knowing all the details we have to assume and hope that he is doing things his way as he beleives that is the right way to do it for the long term good of the sport. And we have to trust in that. That does not make him spineless, lacking courage etc, it just means he is playing the game the way it needs to be played.

Your plans for some sort of cycling armeggedon where names get named, etc will just cause a collapse of the sport from which it may or may not recover. These things need to be done properly. Me beleiving this doesnt make me an apologist, it just means ive realised there is time for a little patience.

We also can all be sure that there is an awful lot of things going on behind the scenes that we know little, or nothing about. People around here seem to think they know everything, everything thats going on, everything thats being said. I would say the people here know maybe 20% of whats going on behind the scenes, and that is a very generous 20%

edit: actually, lets be real, that figure is probably more like 1%

 

[Martin318is]

You're not an apologist, but I sure wish you'd be on board for wanting JV to be another to step forward in a significant way.

To be honest, I think the use of this word is absolutely crucial to the reaction you are getting. Of course we all WANT people like JV to step forward and do everything in their power to publicise all they know and actively fight for cleaner cycling.

That is NOT the same as us having the right to DEMAND than they do so.

Most of your posts (and those of a few others) in this thread have quite strongly argued that somehow JV is obligated to come forward - he absolutely is not - legally, ethically, morally, or otherwise, no matter how much we want him to.