JV talks, sort of

[Dr. Maserati]

Or it could be he's busy finishing up his Masters Degree while running a WT team.

Please do not derail/hijack the thread with logic.

JVs silence is telling (although his posting was telling too, because it was PR) - but he was at all times treated with dignity and respect on this forum with carefully considered and reasonable questions.
If people had constantly referred to him as a liar, omertà upholding, self serving PR type etc etc then he may have a reason to not post here.
But that did not happen here, no siree.

 

[Parker]

The interesting bit (for me) was the qualification, "If you look at the top performers, on average and not at the extremes, power output and speed are down" (forgive me if there is some slight paraphrasing in that, but it is pretty close if not exactly what he said multiple times)

So, who was he singling out 'at the extremes'?

Dave.

He's not singling out anyone. He's just pointing out that when comparing sets of data you have to consider the data as a whole (often as an average) and not by selecting individual bits of data.

 

[red_flanders]

Please do not derail/hijack the thread with logic.

JVs silence is telling (although his posting was telling too, because it was PR) - but he was at all times treated with dignity and respect on this forum with carefully considered and reasonable questions.
If people had constantly referred to him as a liar, omertà upholding, self serving PR type etc etc then he may have a reason to not post here.
But that did not happen here, no siree.

I also wish he'd have been treated with some degree of respect by all members. Most did, but certainly a few seemed bent on destruction and free of reason.

However, and this is something to think about. I think I prefer the over-the-top skepticism and cynicism than the unmitigated salad-tossing of Floyd Landis when he joined the DP forums.

That pretty much killed that forum.

 

[Parker]

Please do not derail/hijack the thread with logic.

JVs silence is telling (although his posting was telling too, because it was PR) - but he was at all times treated with dignity and respect on this forum with carefully considered and reasonable questions.
If people had constantly referred to him as a liar, omertà upholding, self serving PR type etc etc then he may have a reason to not post here.
But that did not happen here, no siree.

He probably realised that many people on here's views are so entrenched that it was no longer worth engaging with them.

 

[D-Queued]

He's not singling out anyone. He's just pointing out that when comparing sets of data you have to consider the data as a whole (often as an average) and not by selecting individual bits of data.

The usual method of applying statistics is to apply it to the entire population, as opposed to high-grading the selection pool and then applying statistics.

Nope, that there is an outlier... remove that data point...

Dave.

 

[Parker]

The usual method of applying statistics is to apply it to the entire population, as opposed to high-grading the selection pool and then applying statistics.

No it's not. You only use relevant points. For example if I was to track the average height of humans in various countries, I am not going to count children. Just as if you are looking at trends in power on climbs, it's no point looking at the autobus.

You don't 'remove' the outlier - you keep it. You just don't base your conclusions on it alone. (Unless you want a fraudulent result to fit a pre set conclusion)

 

[the sceptic]

He's not singling out anyone. He's just pointing out that when comparing sets of data you have to consider the data as a whole (often as an average) and not by selecting individual bits of data.

Isnt the whole point of the "speeds are down" mantra that you can now win clean because noone is climbing like its the 90s anymore?

 

[red_flanders]

Isnt the whole point of the "speeds are down" mantra that you can now win clean because noone is climbing like its the 90s anymore?

That was the original point, back before the arms race started again in earnest. Now I think the best that can be said of it is, "except for the guys winning, speeds are down".

Hard to find the joy in that but I do believe JV is trying to fix things. I don't blame him, but I do struggle to see the point of saying speeds are down after the displays in all 3 GT's this year.

 

[Parker]

Isnt the whole point of the "speeds are down" mantra that you can now win clean because noone is climbing like its the 90s anymore?

Yes. And the extremes of now are higher than the averages of then. It's that comparison people which people have a tendency of making (eg. Rider X in 2013 was almost as fast up this climb as Rider Y in 2000 - single data points absolutely devoid of context).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I also wish he'd have been treated with some degree of respect by all members. Most did, but certainly a few seemed bent on destruction and free of reason.

Which, lets be honest - is a mod issue.
In fact I would say that the constant personal stuff allowed against him has contributed to standards slipping here.
Being a DS/GM should allow him no special privileges, but it also should not have allowed him being abused. He should have been treated as an ordinary member.

However, and this is something to think about. I think I prefer the over-the-top skepticism and cynicism than the unmitigated salad-tossing of Floyd Landis when he joined the DP forums.

That pretty much killed that forum.

No idea, as I don't really know DP let alone posted there.
Skepticism is perfectly fair and right and certainly better than 'salad-tossing' but that is not what happened here.

Edit (hiero2): It has been suggested this post is OT, and might be better moved to the mod thread. The direct subject is accurately OT, and belongs in the mod thread - however, the referred subject is still JV, and therefore I am passing on moving the post at this time. If it draws out into an OT discussion the mods will re-examine moving the posts.

 

[sniper]

That was the original point, back before the arms race started again in earnest. Now I think the best that can be said of it is, "except for the guys winning, speeds are down".

Hard to find the joy in that but I do believe JV is trying to fix things. I don't blame him, but I do struggle to see the point of saying speeds are down after the displays in all 3 GT's this year.

that was always the best that could be said, and probably too good still.
of course hesjedal won the giro clean though.

 

[sniper]

Which, lets be honest - is a mod issue.
In fact I would say that the constant personal stuff allowed against him has contributed to standards slipping here.
Being a DS/GM should allow him no special privileges, but it also should not have allowed him being abused. He should have been treated as an ordinary member.


No idea, as I don't really know DP let alone posted there.
Skepticism is perfectly fair and right and certainly better than 'salad-tossing' but that is not what happened here.

jv did a wiggo press conference on here tons of times, but oh well.

 

[D-Queued]

No it's not. You only use relevant points. For example if I was to track the average height of humans in various countries, I am not going to count children. Just as if you are looking at trends in power on climbs, it's no point looking at the autobus.

You don't 'remove' the outlier - you keep it. You just don't base your conclusions on it alone. (Unless you want a fraudulent result to fit a pre set conclusion)

Um, we aren't talking about children here.

And, by outliers, I don't think JV meant the Lanterne Rouge - which, to be honest, already skews the population metrics by cutting off that tail of the distribution.

So you are saying that speeds and power outputs in the 'population' of elite cyclists shouldn't include this year's Froome-dog, Nibali, or Horner.

I agree completely, but that wouldn't be a statistically sound approach.

Dave.

 

[red_flanders]

that was always the best that could be said, and probably too good still.
of course hesjedal won the giro clean though.

While I'm not terribly inclined to believe anyone winning a GT is clean, Hesjedal's ride didn't appear extra-terrestrial in any way. That means little in terms of proving anything, but at least it was in the realm of explainability. Crap rides could be doped rides.

That said, it was probably the most believable GT I've seen in a long time. Seemed to me things went off the rails again in the next GT (2012 Tour). I don't care what team Hesjedal was on, his ride seemed within human limits from all I watched and have seen in terms of times/numbers. So it really doesn't bother me and doesn't make me blame JV. He seems clearly to be trying to do the right thing.

Don't believe at all that Wiggins was clean in '09, but I don't blame JV for that either. Wiggins was a guy who was and is going to do what he's going to do.

 

[Parker]

Um, we aren't talking about children here.

And, by outliers, I don't think JV meant the Lanterne Rouge - which, to be honest, already skews the population metrics by cutting off that tail of the distribution.

So you are saying that speeds and power outputs in the 'population' of elite cyclists shouldn't include this year's Froome-dog, Nibali, or Horner.

I agree completely, but that wouldn't be a statistically sound approach.

Dave.

No that's no what I said at all. I'm saying you should only use relevant results. You said "The usual method of applying statistics is to apply it to the entire population", so by that token, when judging climbing speeds of the peloton we have to consider Cavendish, Kittel and Greipel just as much as Froome, Horner and Nibali. But that would be stupid - so only the data for the top riders (top 10 maybe) - those that are fully racing - are relevant, not the entire population.

 

[D-Queued]

No that's no what I said at all. I'm saying you should only use relevant results. You said "The usual method of applying statistics is to apply it to the entire population", so by that token, when judging climbing speeds of the peloton we have to consider Cavendish, Kittel and Greipel just as much as Froome, Horner and Nibali. But that would be stupid - so only the data for the top riders (top 10 maybe) - those that are fully racing - are relevant, not the entire population.

Ok, but can I suggest that those trying to avoid the broom wagon may actually be pushing themselves harder than many of those in front of them?

In terms of the 'top riders', your point is well taken that we should focus on these.

However, in that case please again reconsider JV's comment about 'outliers'.

He wasn't talking about slow outliers. Given that the subject was about confirming the absence of doping, he was by definition talking about fast outliers.

In other words, if you remove the data from those going at speeds consistent with doping and at power levels consistent with doping then it looks like there is less doping.

Mmmkay, but how does that prove there is less doping?

That sounds like we are simply viewing through rose-colored glasses.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

While I'm not terribly inclined to believe anyone winning a GT is clean, Hesjedal's ride didn't appear extra-terrestrial in any way. That means little in terms of proving anything, but at least it was in the realm of explainability. Crap rides could be doped rides.

That said, it was probably the most believable GT I've seen in a long time. Seemed to me things went off the rails again in the next GT (2012 Tour). I don't care what team Hesjedal was on, his ride seemed within human limits from all I watched and have seen in terms of times/numbers. So it really doesn't bother me and doesn't make me blame JV. He seems clearly to be trying to do the right thing.

Don't believe at all that Wiggins was clean in '09, but I don't blame JV for that either. Wiggins was a guy who was and is going to do what he's going to do.

as you know, jv is a frontrunner in terms of bringing science into cycling.
and i'm not talking bike science here.
i don't know if that's the right thing to do.
and never mind that he hired some of the finest spanish doctors in order to implement said science. docs who'd made a name for themselves not exactly in the cleanest era of spanish sports.

and then vaughters based his team in an environment where doping is, we can agree, still relatively easy to purchase. many travel there just to dope.
knowing that vaughters can't be with his riders 24/7, being based in girona spain is a choice i find hard to understand from an anti-doping perspective (and risks of that are of course amply demonstrated by the Lowe case).

what do you think?

 

[pmcg76]

as you know, jv is a frontrunner in terms of bringing science into cycling.
and i'm not talking bike science here.
i don't know if that's the right thing to do.
and never mind that he hired some of the finest spanish doctors in order to implement said science. docs who'd made a name for themselves not exactly in the cleanest era of spanish sports.

and then vaughters based his team in an environment where doping is, we can agree, still relatively easy to purchase. many travel there just to dope.
knowing that vaughters can't be with his riders 24/7, being based in girona spain is a choice i find hard to understand from an anti-doping perspective (and risks of that are of course amply demonstrated by the Lowe case).

what do you think?

That your still a complete idiot!!

 

[Parker]

In other words, if you remove the data from those going at speeds consistent with doping and at power levels consistent with doping then it looks like there is less doping.

Mmmkay, but how does that prove there is less doping?

That sounds like we are simply viewing through rose-colored glasses.

Dave.

You keep saying that I think that the highest results should be completely ignored. I have not said this. And never will. As you keep making stuff up to try and get you flawed opinion across I'll leave you alone with you miscomprehension.

 

[red_flanders]

as you know, jv is a frontrunner in terms of bringing science into cycling.
and i'm not talking bike science here.
i don't know if that's the right thing to do.
and never mind that he hired some of the finest spanish doctors in order to implement said science. docs who'd made a name for themselves not exactly in the cleanest era of spanish sports.

and then vaughters based his team in an environment where doping is, we can agree, still relatively easy to purchase. many travel there just to dope.
knowing that vaughters can't be with his riders 24/7, being based in girona spain is a choice i find hard to understand from an anti-doping perspective (and risks of that are of course amply demonstrated by the Lowe case).

what do you think?

I'm uninformed about the spanish doctors on Garmin–just don't know anything about it so maybe either here or in PM you could give me some info to follow up on.

I don't consider locating a team in Girona to be evidence of anything. Seems that's where a lot of American teams/riders have been going and it seems a good place to live and train with the weather. Could be what you suggest but it's pretty thin w/o supporting evidence.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

as you know, jv is a frontrunner in terms of bringing science into cycling.
and i'm not talking bike science here.
i don't know if that's the right thing to do.
and never mind that he hired some of the finest spanish doctors in order to implement said science. docs who'd made a name for themselves not exactly in the cleanest era of spanish sports.

and then vaughters based his team in an environment where doping is, we can agree, still relatively easy to purchase. many travel there just to dope.
knowing that vaughters can't be with his riders 24/7, being based in girona spain is a choice i find hard to understand from an anti-doping perspective (and risks of that are of course amply demonstrated by the Lowe case).

what do you think?

While pmcgs deleted comment is an appropriate response - the odd part in all your Spain/Girona/spanish Doctors yak is that the Lowe case was not about doping, and all were aghast at White because he brought Lowe to LdM.

A rather odd thing if everyone in Garmin is only in Spain to buy/get drugs that are being done by the Spanish Doctor(s) that do the science *wink wink* that JV wants anyway.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm uninformed about the spanish doctors on Garmin–just don't know anything about it so maybe either here or in PM you could give me some info to follow up on.

I don't consider locating a team in Girona to be evidence of anything. Seems that's where a lot of American teams/riders have been going and it seems a good place to live and train with the weather. Could be what you suggest but it's pretty thin w/o supporting evidence.

The Spanish Doctors are just one person - Inigo San Millán.
His guilt - he is a Spanish Doctor.

 

[Benotti69]

While pmcgs deleted comment is an appropriate response - the odd part in all your Spain/Girona/spanish Doctors yak is that the Lowe case was not about doping, and all were aghast at White because he brought Lowe to LdM.

A rather odd thing if everyone in Garmin is only in Spain to buy/get drugs that are being done by the Spanish Doctor(s) that do the science *wink wink* that JV wants anyway.

We dont know what exactly the Lowe case involved. JV certainly didn't give the full account. Lowe's side were threatening a tell all iirc.

JV is not on here, but finds enough time to post crap on twitter, which leads me to believe the current situation has thrown up too much that is only answerable by doping.

That JV got a hard time from some, me included, scared him off is pathetic. Guys is a former doper, and runs a team in the McQuaid era, has a giro and monument to his teams performances. Lots of questions needed to be answered. JV gave very little in here imo.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

We dont know what exactly the Lowe case involved. JV certainly didn't give the full account. Lowe's side were threatening a tell all iirc.

JV is not on here, but finds enough time to post crap on twitter, which leads me to believe the current situation has thrown up too much that is only answerable by doping.

That JV got a hard time from some, me included, scared him off is pathetic. Guys is a former doper, and runs a team in the McQuaid era, has a giro and monument to his teams performances. Lots of questions needed to be answered. JV gave very little in here imo.

Indeed, lots of questions needed to be answered.

But you didn't ask a meaningful question - as your above post shows, you are an extremist and have no intention on changing your view.

 

[red_flanders]

The Spanish Doctors are just one person - Inigo San Millán.
His guilt - he is a Spanish Doctor.

Thanks. Google search on him sent me to a thread here, now closed. Got all I needed there.

So to answer Sniper's question, "What do you think", I'd have to say the same as before. I think JV is trying to do the right thing and I am rooting for him. I would say that the fence-sitting and kid gloves approach he takes to the more difficult topics is un-satisfying and provides less leadership than I'd like, but I support him in what is clearly a difficult if not almost untenable position.

I also think cycling has fully lost the plot and that Sky started a new arms race with collusion from the UCI. That I can't prove in any way, but that's what I've thought since the ridiculous and Olympics 2012 timed emergence of Bradzilla and Badzilla.