JV talks, sort of

[JMBeaushrimp]

T&R wont work.

Look at Hesjedal's confession, not admitting to doping at Disco or Phonak! No one with an ounce of sense and knowledge of the sport believes he would stop doping after rabo U23s

Why wouldn't a T&R work?

Ryder's "confession" (which I view as more of a 'confirmation') wasn't given under the auspices of T&R. It was the usual 'gun to the head' forced admission, forced on Ryder by a third party.

The fact that JV actually expected fans to buy the 'stopped by X date' borders on the juvenile. But, Garmin doesn't have a T&R for the sport set up, they have an ***-covering internal process to try to nip disclosure in the bud.

Don't confuse his 'clean team' PR with what a legitimate T&R could look like...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why wouldn't a T&R work?

Ryder's "confession" (which I view as more of a 'confirmation') wasn't given under the auspices of T&R. It was the usual 'gun to the head' forced admission, forced on Ryder by a third party.

The fact that JV actually expected fans to buy the 'stopped by X date' borders on the juvenile. But, Garmin doesn't have a T&R for the sport set up, they have an ***-covering internal process to try to nip disclosure in the bud.

Don't confuse his 'clean team' PR with what a legitimate T&R could look like...

Can you explain that?
Its not clear from your post - what exactly do you believe Garmin has and what would they gain from lying to USADA?

 

[Ferminal]

So if Hesjedal was doping last year he would have told USADA?

 

[Taxus4a]

So if Hesjedal was doping last year he would have told USADA?

No
But he would have been caught like Santa sooner or later.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So if Hesjedal was doping last year he would have told USADA?

I doubt it - but then it's unlikely he would have agreed to meet either ADA.

 

[Ferminal]

He was required to as per his team orders. If he's happy to hide things from his boss it's not much of a step further. The intensity and specific details of the discussions he had are unknown.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He was required to as per his team orders. If he's happy to hide things from his boss it's not much of a step further. The intensity and specific details of the discussions he had are unknown.

Ok, but this theory is that he is lying to both JV and ADA.

While we don't know specifics, as he wasn't banned he obviously did not say he was doping after 2004.
According to JVs tweets RH was asked had he anything to "add". So he went in.
Even if he was doping last year, he could admit and as long as offered substantial assistance would have got the 6 months.

Edit - added JVs tweet:

@dimspace They called asking if had anything to "add"... Answer was "yes".

 

[Ferminal]

He would have to initiate quite a few sanctions of people who helped him dope last year if he were to get such a reduction. In this case the length of the sentence is minor compared to losing his win and also losing his future contract.

 

[sniper]

Why wouldn't a T&R work?

Ryder's "confession" (which I view as more of a 'confirmation') wasn't given under the auspices of T&R. It was the usual 'gun to the head' forced admission, forced on Ryder by a third party.

The fact that JV actually expected fans to buy the 'stopped by X date' borders on the juvenile. But, Garmin doesn't have a T&R for the sport set up, they have an ***-covering internal process to try to nip disclosure in the bud.

Don't confuse his 'clean team' PR with what a legitimate T&R could look like...

good post, even though i am also inclined to think a t&r wouldnt work. Some gonna tell all, others arent. And can a t&r comision really promise the riders full impunity beforehand? After all, we dont know what ugly truths might surface. People might start implicating each other. Different versions of the truth.
It could get messy. But i could be wrong.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He would have to initiate quite a few sanctions of people who helped him dope last year if he were to get such a reduction. In this case the length of the sentence is minor compared to losing his win and also losing his future contract.

If he was doping until 2012 then he was going to be doing it with quite a few people knowing, as well as exposing a new even more hidden network.

 

[Ferminal]

If we run with that case then... exposing a dozen people, destroying his team, losing all of his race results including Giro win, but he only gets a 6 month suspension, and comes out with excellent job prospects.

Or it could just be easier to not tell anyone you dope.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

good post, even though i am also inclined to think a t&r wouldnt work. Some gonna tell all, others arent. And can a t&r comision really promise the riders full impunity beforehand? After all, we dont know what ugly truths might surface. People might start implicating each other. Different versions of the truth.
It could get messy. But i could be wrong.

Looking at the original T&R (albeit off-topic for this thread, oops) will show you why the proposed T&R for pro cycling is a misnomer, and unlikely to work in the same way.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Can you explain that?
Its not clear from your post - what exactly do you believe Garmin has and what would they gain from lying to USADA?

I was referring to Benotti's statement that a T&R wouldn't work, in which I assumed (probably incorrectly) he was comparing to Garmin's 'confession sessions' to a type of T&R.

I believe Garmin has an internal structure set up where the riders gain a form of absolution from team management. They confess their past transgressions, the team keeps it under the table. Once the rider-confessor is approached by an ADA, the rider is expected to tell all to the ADA.

I have no idea what would happen to a rider if his internal confessions didn't jive with info given to the ADA, although JV has stated briefly on twitter that that would result in termination of contract.

Not sure where you think I implied Garmin lied to USADA, but I will imply that certain of their riders (ryders) have lied to ADAs...

My post was just trying to clarify that Garmin's internal set up is NOT one of T&R. There may be some 'truth', but I'm not seeing a lot of reconciliation...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If we run with that case then... exposing a dozen people, destroying his team, losing all of his race results including Giro win, but he only gets a 6 month suspension, and comes out with excellent job prospects.

Or it could just be easier to not tell anyone you dope.

Again the theory is that he only went to talk to the ADAs because of Garmin/JV - if they had something to hide, easier to refuse the request to meet.
If Garmin are in on this they are not going to implement any policy.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I was referring to Benotti's statement that a T&R wouldn't work, in which I assumed (probably incorrectly) he was comparing to Garmin's 'confession sessions' to a type of T&R.

I believe Garmin has an internal structure set up where the riders gain a form of absolution from team management. They confess their past transgressions, the team keeps it under the table. Once the rider-confessor is approached by an ADA, the rider is expected to tell all to the ADA.

I have no idea what would happen to a rider if his internal confessions didn't jive with info given to the ADA, although JV has stated briefly on twitter that that would result in termination of contract.

Not sure where you think I implied Garmin lied to USADA, but I will imply that certain of their riders (ryders) have lied to ADAs...

My post was just trying to clarify that Garmin's internal set up is NOT one of T&R. There may be some 'truth', but I'm not seeing a lot of reconciliation...

Thanks - think I gottit.
The "nip disclosures in the bud" is where I thought they were attempting to withhold info from the ADAs.

While some of the affidavits seem incredible, remember the only ones we have seen are from people who cooperated. They are more likely to be from people who were genuinely done with doping, while the redacted riders are more likely to have continued.

 

[Ferminal]

Again the theory is that he only went to talk to the ADAs because of Garmin/JV - if they had something to hide, easier to refuse the request to meet.

Isn't the team policy that you get sacked if you refuse to "discuss" your "history"..?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Isn't the team policy that you get sacked if you refuse to "discuss" your "history"..?

Right now - I am struggling to keep up with the theories.

But, the team policy is that you cooperate with ADAs. As Ryder's doping was before SOL and nothing to do with LA & USPS then they could have said he has nothing to offer.
Unless you think they are going to fire him for violating the team policy because he did not tell the ADAs about the doping he was doing at Garmin?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Thanks - think I gottit.
The "nip disclosures in the bud" is where I thought they were attempting to withhold info from the ADAs.

While some of the affidavits seem incredible, remember the only ones we have seen are from people who cooperated. They are more likely to be from people who were genuinely done with doping, while the redacted riders are more likely to have continued.

I meant that through their internal disclosure they'd have a leg up on media trying to break stories about their riders doping.

In terms of Ryder, that system may have been revealed to have some weak points. Mainly those of counting on serial liars to be truthful...

 

[blackcat]

Ok, but this theory is that he is lying to both JV and ADA.

While we don't know specifics, as he wasn't banned he obviously did not say he was doping after 2004.
According to JVs tweets RH was asked had he anything to "add". So he went in.
Even if he was doping last year, he could admit and as long as offered substantial assistance would have got the 6 months.

Edit - added JVs tweet

@dimspace They called asking if had anything to "add"... Answer was "yes".

:

JV73 @TheClinicDozen "They called again, asking if he had anything MORE to add to what he added,
The answer was, "yes, but not yet, wait until he is retired and sucked on the teet of middle-aged guy shwag endorsements for all its wetnurse revenue nutrition."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I meant that through their internal disclosure they'd have a leg up on media trying to break stories about their riders doping.

In terms of Ryder, that system may have been revealed to have some weak points. Mainly those of counting on serial liars to be truthful...

Thing is Ryder as with most of the ex USPS/Disco guy are on Garmin for years, their "history" would be already known to JV, long before USADA came calling.
Back in 08 there was no penalty or reason to continue a lie.

As for a leg up on the media - Garmin are currently the main team being discussed, if it was a PR exercise it has failed, time and again.

 

[Ferminal]

Right now - I am struggling to keep up with the theories.

But, the team policy is that you cooperate with ADAs. As Ryder's doping was before SOL and nothing to do with LA & USPS then they could have said he has nothing to offer.
Unless you think they are going to fire him for violating the team policy because he did not tell the ADAs about the doping he was doing at Garmin?

What theories? I have been consistent throughout - Hesjedal would not have told USADA about any doping he may have done in the last eight years (and more specifically the past five).

As per his arrangement with his boss, he is required to disclose to an ADA his doping activities ten years ago if approached. His boss already knows about these activities so there are no problems there.

If he did not talk with the ADA about his indiscretions that his team know about ("ten years ago") he could have been sacked by his team who expect him to discuss these things when approached.

If he admits to doping more recently, he will be both 1) Officially sanctioned 2) Never hired again by his team where he doped despite being made explicitly clear that it is unacceptable, effectively ending his career and voiding his greatest achievements.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

JV73 @TheClinicDozen "They called again, asking if he had anything MORE to add to what he added,
The answer was, "yes, but not yet, wait until he is retired and sucked on the teet of middle-aged guy shwag endorsements for all its wetnurse revenue nutrition."

I <3 your way with words...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Thing is Ryder as with most of the ex USPS/Disco guy are on Garmin for years, their "history" would be already known to JV, long before USADA came calling.
Back in 08 there was no penalty or reason to continue a lie.

As for a leg up on the media - Garmin are currently the main team being discussed, if it was a PR exercise it has failed, time and again.

That's why a couple of days ago I posted a public question in this thread as to whether people saw any ethical/moral implications with JV hiring Weltz, as JV would have known his history. A sketchy history that came to a larger public light with the Chicken's book.

The leg up on the media theory was one that I'm sure was posited during the creation of Garmin's 'confession sessions'. That was created long before the current ***-storm, and they probably should have seen it coming, omerta or no omerta...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What theories? I have been consistent throughout - Hesjedal would not have told USADA about any doping he may have done in the last eight years (and more specifically the past five).

As per his arrangement with his boss, he is required to disclose to an ADA his doping activities ten years ago if approached. His boss already knows about these activities so there are no problems there.

If he did not talk with the ADA about his indiscretions that his team know about ("ten years ago") he could have been sacked by his team who expect him to discuss these things when approached.

If he admits to doping more recently, he will be both 1) Officially sanctioned 2) Never hired again by his team where he doped despite being made explicitly clear that it is unacceptable, effectively ending his career and voiding his greatest achievements.

Yours is a theory - and there are some others here too, it's hard to keep up, that's all.

Your theory is he kept quiet about his doping on Garmin, ok - this obviously means they are in on the deceit.
If this is the case why didn't Garmin just get the few ex USPS guys to assist? And have no team policy. Best of both worlds.

If Ryder gets exposed as lying, he faces full sanctions from the ADAs and no team will touch him. He would be more toxic than LA.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Yours is a theory - and there are some others here too, it's hard to keep up, that's all.

Your theory is he kept quiet about his doping on Garmin, ok - this obviously means they are in on the deceit.
If this is the case why didn't Garmin just get the few ex USPS guys to assist? And have no team policy. Best of both worlds.

If Ryder gets exposed as lying, he faces full sanctions from the ADAs and no team will touch him. He would be more toxic than LA.

A bad case of "Lancetosis"?