JV talks, sort of

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thehog said:
Perhaps.

But there are teams where English is not the first language. The ones we never talk about.

FDJ being one. Cofidis another.

But yes you are right. There is still a severe amount of doping going on in Pro Cycling.

There was a time FDJ didn't even want to attend the Vuelta, they felt it was so doped up. This year they won 2 stages and placed a rider in the top 10. Of course that might suggest the sport is cleaning up, that is why FDJ are never mentioned as it goes against the grain here.
 
More Strides than Rides said:
If clean cycling is the future of the sport, it has to be made profitable. Doping was enabled for so long in part because it was more profitable; that won't be turned around without some in$entive



Agreed. But one reason we do not talk about them is because they are not a catalyst for change. They may embody the vision, but not with the antagonism that Garmin/JV provides to cause changes. The fact that we don't talk about them shows that fact.

Like it or not, the PR spin, the pursuit of profit, and all other labels we have for JV and his program will serve more good for the sport in a transition to clean cycling


Yes JV will read from the clean bible.

We'll all be converted to the new religion.
 
May 26, 2010
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red_flanders said:
I'm glad he's done what he's done. I have my doubts that your mole scenario is in any way realistic, to put it mildly. I don't find JV perfect, and I don't agree with every stance. I don't think the results are perfect and never expected they would be. But what he has done is more than most and I personally believe it came from the right place and has done good.

As far as money, it is many people's goal to make money in their field of interest of passion. Some say it's one way to never work a day in your life, to do what you love. Good for him for staying in the sport and making some money (can't imagine it's too much) along the way.

I just wish people would aim their venom at those who do nothing to help and much to harm the sport.

I think we should all give someone trying to help some room to breathe, whether or not we find their methods perfect. He's the one out there putting it on the line, not talking about cycling in a forum. Obviously, I respect that.

My problem with JV is his so called 'dedication' to anti doping. You cant be dedicated to anti doping running a team in a dirty sport, especially a bunch of guys who know how to beat anti doping. Only Dekker was caught doping.

Bassons is dedicated to anti doping by teaching kids about the dangers and wrongs of doping. Running a pro team full of dopers isn't going to change the sport as there is no reason to believe these guys turned their back on doping. While I think Vaughters might like the sport to return to pre epo times, those times were not clean and neither could clean athletes compete unless one had LeMond like talent, supposing LeMond was not a doper, although i would like to think he was clean as someone would've outed him by now.
 
IndianCyclist said:
He did not say that. I am not aware and i am also not saying that he is lying.

My point is not that.


Please note the "clean" words. If that is not rubbing noses in "clean" then I'm cats' uncle:rolleyes:. Also the "honesty" & "environment" means that Hesjedal should have come clean alongwith the other guys and spoken to the media about it. It could have become another feather in the cap for Garmin as PR. He was probably afraid that he would miss some racing or his Giro win would become tainted and so he didnot fess. So the world gets to know from Ras and naturally you have the result.
Ditto with SKY. If one of their riders comes up positive or is found to have doped in the past, then there is going to be a media storm of magnitude which would make the Garmin storm look like a mere breeze.
When somebody goes for zero tolerance then they should expect zero tolerance from anybody when the tolerance is greater than zero.

Actually JV was clear when Slipstream went big-time in 2008 that there would be people on his team who had doped in the post. That is why he never had a ZTP on his team.

He has made it clear numerous times including on here that he is not so much bothered about what people have done in the past and more bothered about what riders can do riding clean on his team.

This is one of the things I find weird is how people seem to consistently apply the standards SKY set for themselves to what Garmin are doing and use it as a stick to beat Garmin with.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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red_flanders said:
I'm glad he's done what he's done. I have my doubts that your mole scenario is in any way realistic, to put it mildly. I don't find JV perfect, and I don't agree with every stance. I don't think the results are perfect and never expected they would be. But what he has done is more than most and I personally believe it came from the right place and has done good.

As far as money, it is many people's goal to make money in their field of interest of passion. Some say it's one way to never work a day in your life, to do what you love. Good for him for staying in the sport and making some money (can't imagine it's too much) along the way.

I just wish people would aim their venom at those who do nothing to help and much to harm the sport.

I think we should all give someone trying to help some room to breathe, whether or not we find their methods perfect. He's the one out there putting it on the line, not talking about cycling in a forum. Obviously, I respect that.
what exactly has he done? all i can think of is he's given omerta a new flavor, a perception is reality flavor, and has fed the media with gratuite statements on a new clean(er) generation.

'has done more than others', as in more than other cheats?
there are also those who rode clean and thus never got an honest chance to achieve what jv has achieved. they've sacrificed a lot more than jv ever will.

of course benotti's scenario is unrealistic, and benotti said as much when he noticed there's no money in it.
vaughters won't sacrifice his income for clean cycling. at least i haven't seen any signs to that extent, other than that gratuite oneliner on his twitter account.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Actually JV was clear when Slipstream went big-time in 2008 that there would be people on his team who had doped in the post. That is why he never had a ZTP on his team.

He has made it clear numerous times including on here that he is not so much bothered about what people have done in the past and more bothered about what riders can do riding clean on his team.

This is one of the things I find weird is how people seem to consistently apply the standards SKY set for themselves to what Garmin are doing and use it as a stick to beat Garmin with.
Vaughters' philosophy, imo, stands and falls by the effort he takes (or doesn't take) to actually close-monitor his riders. As far as we can tell, he's hardly monitoring his own riders. Take Ryder, who trains on Hawaii most of the time, which of course isn't JV's fault, but still.
JV is busy getting a BA, busy twittering, busy doing whatever, but is he busy monitoring his riders?
 
Benotti69 said:
My problem with JV is his so called 'dedication' to anti doping. You cant be dedicated to anti doping running a team in a dirty sport, especially a bunch of guys who know how to beat anti doping. Only Dekker was caught doping.

Bassons is dedicated to anti doping by teaching kids about the dangers and wrongs of doping. Running a pro team full of dopers isn't going to change the sport as there is no reason to believe these guys turned their back on doping. While I think Vaughters might like the sport to return to pre epo times, those times were not clean and neither could clean athletes compete unless one had LeMond like talent, supposing LeMond was not a doper, although i would like to think he was clean as someone would've outed him by now.

Or Mottet Like talent, or Delion like talent or Eric Cartioux or Steve Bauer or Colin Sturgess like talent or how knows many other people.

What is the point of teaching people about the dangers of doping when they get to the pro sport if they are faced with no other choice but to dope. You might as well tell all kids to not bother about sport whether it be Cycling, NFL, Rugby or whatever, just say don't aim for pro sport, do it for fun only.

If Garmin are a clean team, they provide the perfect environment for a athlete whom Basson's is teaching to graduate to. Better than them walking into a Festina like environment.
 
pmcg76 said:
Actually JV was clear when Slipstream went big-time in 2008 that there would be people on his team who had doped in the post. That is why he never had a ZTP on his team.

He has made it clear numerous times including on here that he is not so much bothered about what people have done in the past and more bothered about what riders can do riding clean on his team.

This is one of the things I find weird is how people seem to consistently apply the standards SKY set for themselves to what Garmin are doing and use it as a stick to beat Garmin with.

Problem being they are not an anti-doping.

They're just another team.

Hanging out on Twitter is not anti-doping.

Go to the Slipstream website. There's nothing on anti-doping.

They no longer have an internal testing program. They don't published results, nothing.

It's just words.

Even the Ag2r English website does better than that.

Anti-doping is just marketing speak.
 
sniper said:
Vaughters' philosophy, imo, stands and falls by the effort he takes (or doesn't take) to actually close-monitor his riders. As far as we can tell, he's hardly monitoring his own riders. Take Ryder, who trains on Hawaii most of the time, which of course isn't JV's fault, but still.
JV is busy getting a BA, busy twittering, busy doing whatever, but is he busy monitoring his riders?


No we have been through this before, Hesdejal lives in Hawaii in the off-season, he lives in Girona the rest of the year.

How can you tell what monitoring JV/Garmin are doing, didn't they post Ryder's blood value's for 2012, off-season included. So to say he hardly monitors his riders is pure guesswork on your behalf.

I am also sure JV leaves the close monitoring of his riders to his doctors like Steffen Prentice etc who then report to him. Like a CEO he is the guy at the top of the tree.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
No we have been through this before, Hesdejal lives in Hawaii in the off-season, he lives in Girona the rest of the year.

How can you tell what monitoring JV/Garmin are doing, didn't they post Ryder's blood value's for 2012, off-season included. So to say he hardly monitors his riders is pure guesswork on your behalf.

I am also sure JV leaves the close monitoring of his riders to his doctors like Steffen Prentice etc who then report to him. Like a CEO he is the guy at the top of the tree.
the offseason, indeed no time to take peds.:rolleyes:

It's JV who vouches for his riders and a clean(er) generation.
He (as opposed to 'they') should do the monitoring, or otherwise not jump on the high horse.

I don't think he spends that much time in Girona, but i'd be happy to be corrected on that.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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thehog said:
Problem being they are not an anti-doping.

They're just another team.

Hanging out on Twitter is not anti-doping.

Go to the Slipstream website. There's nothing on anti-doping.

They no longer have an internal testing program. They don't published results, nothing.

It's just words.

Even the Ag2r English website does better than that.

Anti-doping is just marketing speak.

If I was a young clean athelte I would think twice before signing for a team full of dopers and staff from the "dark years"
 
thehog said:
Problem being they are not an anti-doping.

They're just another team.

Hanging out on Twitter is not anti-doping.

Go to the Slipstream website. There's nothing on anti-doping.

They no longer have an internal testing program. They don't published results, nothing.

It's just words.

Even the Ag2r English website does better than that.

Anti-doping is just marketing speak.

Again how do you know they don't have an internal testing program?

Because they don't publish the results!!!!
 
pmcg76 said:
There was a time FDJ didn't even want to attend the Vuelta, they felt it was so doped up. This year they won 2 stages and placed a rider in the top 10. Of course that might suggest the sport is cleaning up, that is why FDJ are never mentioned as it goes against the grain here.

There was a time when a certain nations cycling federation did not want to get involved in road cycling, but now they have a team involved it does not stop the majority of the clinic from accusing said team of doping.
 
Benotti69 said:
Bassons is dedicated to anti doping by teaching kids about the dangers and wrongs of doping.

Sorry to break you, but you have to be incredibly naive to think that teaching kids about wrongs of doping, changes anything. Iy may feel good, but whatever science has learned about what makes people tick, why people behave like they behave, would say us that "teaching children about doping" is completely useless.
 
pmcg76 said:
Again how do you know they don't have an internal testing program?

Because they don't publish the results!!!!

Slow down.

Have a read of what you just wrote.

They are not an anti-doping team. Their total lack of transparency tells you that.

And that's alright. But Vaughters needs to stop planting stories in Velonews that they are anti-doping.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Jv's voice gonna be seabiscuit after all this talking. he should take up sign language.

I have one sign, right hand, pointer finger, finger tap nose. wry grin.
 
the sceptic said:
If I was a young clean athelte I would think twice before signing for a team full of dopers and staff from the "dark years"

So what team would they sign for then to avoid such a situation???

At this moment in time, I think a clean rider would want to sign for a team with an anti-doping philosophy/reputation rather than one without. Many riders in the past have said they were attracted to a team because of their anti-doping philosophy.
 
May 26, 2010
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Von Mises said:
Sorry to break you, but you have to be incredibly naive to think that teaching kids about wrongs of doping, changes anything. Iy may feel good, but whatever science has learned about what makes people tick, why people behave like they behave, would say us that "teaching children about doping" is completely useless.

Sorry to break IT to you, but expecting dopers to suddenly see the light and race against other dopers without the inherent psychological demotivation that this brings is naive.

Education has proven to work. Expecting dopers to give up while all others are juicing is ludricous.
 
Von Mises said:
Sorry to break you, but you have to be incredibly naive to think that teaching kids about wrongs of doping, changes anything. Iy may feel good, but whatever science has learned about what makes people tick, why people behave like they behave, would say us that "teaching children about doping" is completely useless.

Amazing how kids are all taught about the evils of recreational drugs and about sex education but how many still take drugs and end up pregnant as teenagers.
 
Benotti69 said:
Sorry to break IT to you, but expecting dopers to suddenly see the light and race against other dopers without the inherent psychological demotivation that this brings is naive.

Education has proven to work. Expecting dopers to give up while all others are juicing is ludricous.

Should have posted my last response about sex education and recreational drugs here.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Von Mises said:
Sorry to break you, but you have to be incredibly naive to think that teaching kids about wrongs of doping, changes anything. Iy may feel good, but whatever science has learned about what makes people tick, why people behave like they behave, would say us that "teaching children about doping" is completely useless.

I guess that means JV is the only person in the world that can stop people from doping. :rolleyes:
 
May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Amazing how kids are all taught about the evils of recreational drugs and about sex education but how many still take drugs and end up pregnant as teenagers.

Amazing how many kids are educated and dont end up taking drugs or pregnant. Not every young person is a walking junkie constantly pregnant!

I love this line of argument. JV can educate adult dopers about the evils of doping but Kids cant be educated. Adults who want to win and earn big bucks can be taught to race clean but kids cannot be warned about the dangers!!

hahahahaha!!!!!!!!
 
sniper said:
the offseason, indeed no time to take peds.:rolleyes:

It's JV who vouches for his riders and a clean(er) generation.
He (as opposed to 'they') should do the monitoring, or otherwise not jump on the high horse.

I don't think he spends that much time in Girona, but i'd be happy to be corrected on that.

How on earth would one guy who is not a doctor monitor 30 riders by themselves, that is just plain ridiculous and shows how far off-base you are on the matter.
 
IndianCyclist said:
He did not say that. I am not aware and i am also not saying that he is lying.

My point is not that.


Please note the "clean" words. If that is not rubbing noses in "clean" then I'm cats' uncle:rolleyes:. Also the "honesty" & "environment" means that Hesjedal should have come clean alongwith the other guys and spoken to the media about it. It could have become another feather in the cap for Garmin as PR. He was probably afraid that he would miss some racing or his Giro win would become tainted and so he didnot fess. So the world gets to know from Ras and naturally you have the result.
Ditto with SKY. If one of their riders comes up positive or is found to have doped in the past, then there is going to be a media storm of magnitude which would make the Garmin storm look like a mere breeze.
When somebody goes for zero tolerance then they should expect zero tolerance from anybody when the tolerance is greater than zero.

anyway we won't be able to follow that here, if it happens, the CN forum will be down for 3 months at least :D
i can't even imagine the mess it will cause