JV talks, sort of

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Jul 21, 2012
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pmcg76 said:
So what team would they sign for then to avoid such a situation???

At this moment in time, I think a clean rider would want to sign for a team with an anti-doping philosophy/reputation rather than one without. Many riders in the past have said they were attracted to a team because of their anti-doping philosophy.
I dont know. Here is a shocking idea. Former dopers from the "dark years" arent the only people that are capable of running a cycling team.

All I know is that I wouldnt be comfortable in an environment where most of my teammates and staff are former cheaters.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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red_flanders said:
I think y'all are fairly off base with regard to what he's done. I think he's created a climate where riders can ride dope free.

It's too bad the level of cynicism, though I understand it.
exactly how did he do that?
if that's the case, it raises so many questions.
for instance,
1. what's weltz doing there being a director? he vocally defended armstrong in 2012. I guess he missed prentice's perception is reality memo.
2. why base the team in girona spain? e.g. the white-delmoral link proves my point, not to mention the weltz-girona link, etc. Very simple, if JV was dedicated to creating a dopefree climate, he shouldnt base his team in a place where experienced cycling dopingdoctors live around the corner.
3. where is garmin's outrage about dopers? if the climate at garmin is as you suggest it is, how do you explain wiggo 2009's 4th place and the lack of any outrage? where was jonathan pointing out a doper kept wiggo from podiuming? 2013, no different. No questioning of Sky, even though Garmin at times got crushed.
4. Hesjedal. You think he rode clean in 2012?
etc.

the only thing i can find that supports a cleaner climate at garmin are gratuite statements from Garmin people.
 
Benotti69 said:
Amazing how many kids are educated and dont end up taking drugs or pregnant. Not every young person is a walking junkie constantly pregnant!

I love this line of argument. JV can educate adult dopers about the evils of doping but Kids cant be educated. Adults who want to win and earn big bucks can be taught to race clean but kids cannot be warned about the dangers!!

hahahahaha!!!!!!!!
How can you not get this, even if warned about the dangers of doping, that doesn't mean they won't dope when they get to pro level if they are faced with that choice. Not everyone dopes at pro level so it is the same scenario.

I would imagine if a team director wants to run a clean team, they would hire guys with a willingness to change. Once again you are promoting an idea that every pro rider is hardwired the exact same way which as always is nonsense.

How the hell did Marc Madiot manage to change the doping culture at LFDJ. After all Madiot himself was a doper.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
I love this line of argument. JV can educate adult dopers about the evils of doping but Kids cant be educated. Adults who want to win and earn big bucks can be taught to race clean but kids cannot be warned about the dangers!!
excellent point.
 
the sceptic said:
I dont know. Here is a shocking idea. Former dopers from the "dark years" arent the only people that are capable of running a cycling team.

All I know is that I wouldnt be comfortable in an environment where most of my teammates and staff are former cheaters.
Well simple then, you wouldn't be a pro in any sport.

I think most people can evaluate the situation for most rider's in the 90s/00s. and thus don't judge them as long as they are doing it right now.
 
sniper said:
exactly how did he do that?
if that's the case, it raises so many questions.
for instance,
1. what's weltz doing there being a director? he vocally defended armstrong in 2012. I guess he missed prentice's perception is reality memo.
2. why base the team in girona spain? e.g. the white-delmoral link proves my point, not to mention the weltz-girona link, etc. Very simple, if JV was dedicated to creating a dopefree climate, he shouldnt base his team in a place where experienced cycling dopingdoctors live around the corner.
3. where is garmin's outrage about dopers? if the climate at garmin is as you suggest it is, how do you explain wiggo 2009's 4th place and the lack of any outrage? where was jonathan pointing out a doper kept wiggo from podiuming? 2013, no different. No questioning of Sky, even though Garmin at times got crushed.
4. Hesjedal. You think he rode clean in 2012?
etc.

the only thing i can find that supports a cleaner climate at garmin are gratuite statements from Garmin people.

Hopeless as usual, you state Girona and then name White-Del Moral who were based in............Valenica. Tyler H was based in Girona but flew to Valencia and Madrid for doping purposes.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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pmcg76 said:
Well simple then, you wouldn't be a pro in any sport.

I think most people can evaluate the situation for most rider's in the 90s/00s. and thus don't judge them as long as they are doing it right now.
Damn it. I thought the dark era was over. I guess you are right, difficult to be a clean rider when all the teams are riddled with former dopers and dirty doctors.
 
the sceptic said:
Damn it. I thought the dark era was over. I guess you are right, difficult to be a clean rider when all the teams are riddled with former dopers and dirty doctors.
No you are setting your criteria, as other's have shown they are not using your criteria.

The big question is if you can make a career without doping, then what your team-mates have done in the past is irrelevant.
 
Benotti69 said:
Amazing how many kids are educated and dont end up taking drugs or pregnant. Not every young person is a walking junkie constantly pregnant!

I love this line of argument. JV can educate adult dopers about the evils of doping but Kids cant be educated. Adults who want to win and earn big bucks can be taught to race clean but kids cannot be warned about the dangers!!

hahahahaha!!!!!!!!
Also when has JV ever said he was about educating riders on the evils of doping.

He has offered guys the opportunity to ride for his team if they are prepared to do it clean which is an alternative to what some teams offer.
 
pmcg76 said:
No you are setting your criteria, as other's have shown they are not using your criteria.

The big question is if you can make a career without doping, then what your team-mates have done in the past is irrelevant.
Just popped over the Garmin-Sharp Slipstream website.

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/

Man they sure are anti-doping! My god! Just look at all that anti-doping stuff they've got going on! :rolleyes:
 
Benotti69 said:
Sorry to break IT to you, but expecting dopers to suddenly see the light and race against other dopers without the inherent psychological demotivation that this brings is naive.

Education has proven to work. Expecting dopers to give up while all others are juicing is ludricous.
I was not talking about what to expect from dopers, I was just making one point. And no, education has not proven to work, at least not in this sense what you mean. What works is environment or change of environment, change of genes would work too, but it is impossible, same applies to personality traits, they are heritable and we cannot change them. Environment is onlything left. Crime rates did not rise in 60-70s because parents and teachers stopped teaching and they did not decline in 90s because parents and teachers started to teach again.

And nobody is saying that Vaughters tries to educate adult dopers about evils of doping. What he tries (at least by his words) is to change environment. You cannot change psychology of Hesjedal or Dekker (same way you cannot actually change personality traits of other people), but it is not issue anyway because I do not see any reason to think that pro cyclists on average are morally or psychologically different from other people.
 
thehog said:

As far as I know Cofidis has quite similar policy. For instance they did not fire Di Gregorio for doping (at the end it turned out that "suspicious" products in his vare were plane vitamins) but because Di Gregorio visited doctor without team´s permission.
Teams, if they want, can actually do a lot because they are not so dependant of rigid burden of proof like UCI or WADA.
 
pmcg76 said:
So what you are saying is that teams that have anti-doping statements on their website are clean. So Betancur was clean when he finished 5th in the Giro or when Pozzovivo finished 6th in the Vuelta, clean. Those are mighty performances for clean riders, no wonder Ryder could win the Giro clean.
wait, what?
 
pmcg76 said:
So what you are saying is that teams that have anti-doping statements on their website are clean. So Betancur was clean when he finished 5th in the Giro or when Pozzovivo finished 6th in the Vuelta, clean. Those are mighty performances for clean riders, no wonder Ryder could win the Giro clean.
At this point Taxus4a s making more sense than you.

Now what are you talking about?
 
pmcg76 said:
So what you are saying is that teams that have anti-doping statements on their website are clean.
He's saying JV talks a very good game. IMHO, AG2R's standards are much higher, and easy for some anonymous joker like me to validate against their actions.

JV could have applied some version of AG2R's logical and public anti-doping policies. Instead, we get some anecdotes about how things are run that might be true. Hopefully they are, but there is so much lying in American cycling relying on JV's word is an act of faith in the grandest sense of the word faith.
 
DirtyWorks said:
He's saying JV talks a very good game. IMHO, AG2R's standards are much higher, and easy for some anonymous joker like me to validate against their actions.

JV could have applied some version of AG2R's logical and public anti-doping policies. Instead, we get some anecdotes about how things are run that might be true. Hopefully they are, but there is so much lying in American cycling relying on JV's word is an act of faith in the grandest sense of the word faith.
Correct.

A good example is Apple. They not only tell the audiences and public of their recyclability and green policy of their products they print them on their websites with certifications. You can check them out yourself if your the type of person who wants to make environmentally appropriate buying decisions.

http://www.apple.com/environment/

Ag2R and other teams do similar with their anti-doping policies and procedures.

Ag2R also withdrew themselves from Criterium-Internation this year for breaching MPCC policy.

Do Garmin do similar?

Garmin have nothing on their site. Similar to Sky I have no idea about their anti-doping policy on their teams. I just hear the term get used whenever they are defending their position. But there's actually little substances behind all this talk.

For the two English language teams that proclaiming they are part of a new clean era there is very little to nothing in regards to anti-doping

The sum part of Garmins anti-doping policy is a cartoon photo of Mickey and Mini-mouse in a double suicide.

Stupid and pointless.
 
thehog said:
At this point Taxus4a s making more sense than you.

Now what are you talking about?
Well obviously you feel that having an anti-doping statement on the website is a sign of a team with a strong anti-doping stance. In this example AG2R, thus it would follow that Betancur and Pozzovivo achieved their results in the Giro and Vuelta whilst adhering to this public anti-doping policy. Right.

Or alternatively those guys were doping and the vaunted public anti-doping policy adopted by AG2R is redundant and nothing but a PR tool much like all the reasons Garmin are lambasted with.

I would like to also add that Garmin have been at the top now for five years and they are still to have a doping case of any sort in that time, I mean cases related to that time period, not retro-active cases. On the other hand AG2R have had 3 doping related cases in the same period, Georges, Houanard and Valjavec.

So having some stated anti-doping policy on a web-site is not really that important in the grand scheme of things.
 
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