JV talks, sort of

[Dear Wiggo]

I think y'all are fairly off base with regard to what he's done. I think he's created a climate where riders can ride dope free.

Doubtful.

IMO, he treats his riders poorly, or no better than any other pro team. They only keep their jobs if they perform, like any other pro cycling team.

* If the riders on his team don't perform, they get the flick. Just like any other team.
* Their best sprinter (Farrar) gets left dangling for months (2013) before finally getting one last bite at the cherry.
* The fiasco that was the Matt White / del Moral incident, sending Trent Lowe to a doping doctor and then being a *** about it.
* The young kid who he "taught a lesson" about who is boss, via passive aggressive techniques for a time trial follow car.
* Wiggins break out performance of the decade came whilst at Garmin, but Wiggins and Garmin didn't actually train or in the end even race together - it was BC and Wiggins (for himself) all the way.
* Ryder's breakout performance at the Giro happened and for the final TT, JV did not even know what time Ryder started, he was nowhere near the race.

No other team is going to force their riders to dope in this day and age, in fact JV's last job as a rider was on a team (CA) where he was told not to dope, and was not allowed to have a cortisone injection. He doped anyway.

ie there already WAS an opportunity to ride clean, and JV spat in the face of the concept.

To say he is now responsible for creating an opportunity to ride clean like it's some kind of new and improved thing is a little short sighted, I think.

Repeated use of the terms "publicly stated policy" but I have asked, and looked for said policy, and it is not available, anywhere.
* In fact it generates polemic in this thread: just exactly what do Garmin riders have to do and when, if they are ex-dopers? I think it's only just been cleared up with the recent Ryder "confession", but even there the timelines seem fuzzy and confused.
* what is Garmin's anti-doping policy?
* how do Garmin determine if their riders are in fact clean?

The "knowledge" JV purports to have, and then ridicules people who test its veracity:
* the incredibly dubious testing protocol that "proves" Ramunas (sp can never remember his name) was clean
* the constant "machine errors" that explain away anomalies but never get used in the reverse to dismiss values that fit the narrative
* lack of transparency in terms of domestique profiles being released for comparison, or a full profile from start to finish for a clean GT winner
* the claim that some riders are not GT riders, do not experience BV expansion and hence their Hct goes UP, naturally, during a GT (David Millar)


This is still the bio for Vaughters, despite being posted and ridiculed here in the Clinic:

He was perhaps young to retire, but clearly had maximized his abilities at a somewhat earlier age than most through ground-breaking training techniques, and extreme focus. In his 10 years as a professional cyclist he set the record up Mount Ventoux, and was an integral part of the winning team time trial squad in stage 5 of the 2001 Tour de France. Nonetheless, at 30, he decided to dedicate more time to his growing family, and to the business aspect of the fastest growing sport in the US.
http://www.slipstreamsports.com/garmin-slipstream-staff

He doped to that Ventoux record. He has said so in this very thread. Yet this bio is the message a new cyclist reads when considering Garmin as a team, looking at the staff.

This is not an anti-doping, contrite, repentant ex-doper team manager. At all.

The reason JV gets picked on, is because despite (IMO) running a team no better or different to any other team in the pro peloton, he claims it is different.

Please. Show me the difference.

 

[thehog]

Well obviously you feel that having an anti-doping statement on the website is a sign of a team with a strong anti-doping stance. In this example AG2R, thus it would follow that Betancur and Pozzovivo achieved their results in the Giro and Vuelta whilst adhering to this public anti-doping policy. Right.

Or alternatively those guys were doping and the vaunted public anti-doping policy adopted by AG2R is redundant and nothing but a PR tool much like all the reasons Garmin are lambasted with.

I would like to also add that Garmin have been at the top now for five years and they are still to have a doping case of any sort in that time, I mean cases related to that time period, not retro-active cases. On the other hand AG2R have had 3 doping related cases in the same period, Georges, Houanard and Valjavec.

So having some stated anti-doping policy on a web-site is not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

It is important to have a stated anti-doping policy. Because Georges, Houanard and Valjavec were all delta with in the same manner.

The Garmin dopers get dealt with however JV pleases. Some stay. Some go. Some speak with the authorities, some don't. Some wait till the SOL, others are probably still waiting.

Who knows.

Just like Government, its important to be clear with your intention, your platform and your ethos.

The word "anti-doping" gets subbed each and every time Garmin/Sky need to bury something.

Its weak.

 

[D-Queued]

Well obviously you feel that having an anti-doping statement on the website is a sign of a team with a strong anti-doping stance. In this example AG2R, thus it would follow that Betancur and Pozzovivo achieved their results in the Giro and Vuelta whilst adhering to this public anti-doping policy. Right.

Or alternatively those guys were doping and the vaunted public anti-doping policy adopted by AG2R is redundant and nothing but a PR tool much like all the reasons Garmin are lambasted with.

I would like to also add that Garmin have been at the top now for five years and they are still to have a doping case of any sort in that time, I mean cases related to that time period, not retro-active cases. On the other hand AG2R have had 3 doping related cases in the same period, Georges, Houanard and Valjavec.

So having some stated anti-doping policy on a web-site is not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

Point well taken backed up by intriguing evidence.

On the one hand, thehog and others are doing what we should be doing and questioning everything.

On the other hand, shining a light on JV as opposed to others is a mistake. Other teams are clearly continuing to encourage doping practices or pretend that they don't happen.

Criticism that JV might be duplicitous ignores those that obviously are.

JV knew that sooner or later something about Ryder's doping would come out. He has been very pro-active and open since the revelation. While it may have been a nicety for JV to have been the first to publicize any past doping by Ryder or anyone else on Garmin, that is more than unrealistic.

If I could only ask one question of JV, it wouldn't be about Ryder.

That question would be whether or not any changeover in team membership has been influenced by concern of ongoing or potential doping by those members.

He probably couldn't tell us that either. But, if this has happened I would sure like to know.

Dave.

 

[ChrisE]

The thing about it is that JV better be running a tight ship. By proclaiming cleanliness all the time, he is basically implying that other teams or the sport itself is dirty and Garmin is the exception. That's gotta grow old after awhile with others in the sport. I would think there are some people laying in the weeds for him, and I can't wait for JB's hearing.

 

[thehog]

The thing about it is that JV better be running a tight ship. By proclaiming cleanliness all the time, he is basically implying that other teams or the sport itself is dirty and Garmin is the exception. That's gotta grow old after awhile with others in the sport. I would think there are some people laying in the weeds for him, and I can't wait for JB's hearing.

Reminds me of JV's SCA affidavit. Who stated there was no doping at Disco in 2005. The only reason he could write that because he wasn't on the team then.

JV has danced around the truth for years.

Not sure JB can hand grenade that one open. Be fun watching it though.

Is this show in London televised?

 

[pmcg76]

It is important to have a stated anti-doping policy. Because Georges, Houanard and Valjavec were all delta with in the same manner.

The Garmin dopers get dealt with however JV pleases. Some stay. Some go. Some speak with the authorities, some don't. Some wait till the SOL, others are probably still waiting.

Who knows.

Just like Government, its important to be clear with your intention, your platform and your ethos.

The word "anti-doping" gets subbed each and every time Garmin/Sky need to bury something.

Its weak.

What Garmin dopers were let go?? Who was treated differently?

I have always had a clear understanding of their policies.

One of JV first statements on dopers in Garmin was this.

Will there be riders on the team who have doped in the past? I don't doubt it. Will anyone dope on this team from now on? I'm betting my reputation on it that they won't. Taken from Cycle Sport Oct 2007

I think he has been also clear on numerous occasion's that if a rider is called by any authorities to talk about past doping, they are required to do so and in a truthful manner.

Haven talked with pro riders about JV/Garmin and listened to a few podcasts from Mike Creed, it would seem that JV is not some super guy. He seem's far from the perfect boss but like most bosses has to make the hard decisions. According to those in the know, he can be particularly harsh and nasty to riders who are no longer staying with the team and can also be very petty. The Trent Lowe case clearly bears that out and the way he treated Hushovd also.

Apparently quite a few of the guys who have left Garmin are less than fulsome in their praise of JV. Of course if you are fired, you are always likely to have a grievance especially if you feel you have been wronged. JV has never tried to deny that fact and has admitted that he is in fact not perfect(Creed podcasts).

What I have heard in his favour though is that he is genuine about the team's anti-doping stance, that seemingly has never wavered. I think people seem to think that this stance equates to him being some super nice guy which is clearly not the case. Chances are if JV was my boss, I might not like him either.

 

[The Hitch]

* Ryder's breakout performance at the Giro happened and for the final TT, JV did not even know what time Ryder started, he was nowhere near the race.

JV's own twitter pic is of him in Milan, the day of the final tt with the trophy in his hands.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

JV's own twitter pic is of him in Milan, the day of the final tt with the trophy in his hands.

I'll find the post where he didn't have a clue, but in the mean time, that's a pretty select part of a very large post to scrutinise, Hitch. Your dislike for me showing through?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I would like to also add that Garmin have been at the top now for five years and they are still to have a doping case of any sort in that time, I mean cases related to that time period, not retro-active cases. On the other hand AG2R have had 3 doping related cases in the same period, Georges, Houanard and Valjavec.

So having some stated anti-doping policy on a web-site is not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

Does this help explain that at all?

I don't tell my team not to dope. I spend over $500,000 annually to make sure they don't. I set up a truth and reward policy to make sure there is clarity as to what is going on AND I allow any journalist any access they desire.

In addition Ive worked actively with WADA and USADA since 2004 to help improve their testing methods and execution and volunteered my team to try new testing methods.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1073738&postcount=2000

JV gets to test out new testing methods developed by WADA and USADA on his riders. He also has an internal $500k / year testing program.

 

[The Hitch]

but in the mean time, that's a pretty select part of a very large post to scrutinise, Hitch. Your dislike for me showing through?

Come again?



Me correcting you is evidence of me disliking you? So what, are you suggesting that if I liked you I would have ignored the fact that you posted something false and not corrected it?

There was nothing personal in my post, no additional commentary.
I saw you post something false and I corrected it. That is all.

To paraphrase Chewbacca in netserks signature "if you don't want me to correct your bs, don't post bs".

Blame yourself for posting something that was false rather than me for correcting it. As for the rest of your post, I don't really care to read it. I was just skimming over the page when I saw the bit about JV not being at the Giro and thought- hang on. So no me correcting you was not a commentary on the rest of your post or evidence of dislike or any **** like that.

It was just someone who saw a mistake politely pointing it out.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Come again?



Me correcting you is evidence of me disliking you? .

No. Read what I wrote. Ignoring the entire post (apparently not reading it at all) but managing to single out one apparent mistake and feeling the need to respond to only that.

Completely different to "just correcting you".

But whatever dude.

 

[The Hitch]

I must have missed the rule where it said I had to read someones entire post to correct their lies.

Could you show it to me?

 

[sniper]

How on earth would one guy who is not a doctor monitor 30 riders by themselves, that is just plain ridiculous and shows how far off-base you are on the matter.

thanx, that's proving my point. he can't possibly monitor all his riders. we agree.

 

[IndianCyclist]

He's saying JV talks a very good game. IMHO, AG2R's standards are much higher, and easy for some anonymous joker like me to validate against their actions.

JV could have applied some version of AG2R's logical and public anti-doping policies. Instead, we get some anecdotes about how things are run that might be true. Hopefully they are, but there is so much lying in American cycling relying on JV's word is an act of faith in the grandest sense of the word faith.

Again same problem. No matter how strong the anti doping policies, there is still doping taking place. Confirmed positives of Georges & Houanard.

 

[Big Doopie]

What Garmin dopers were let go?? Who was treated differently?

I have always had a clear understanding of their policies.

One of JV first statements on dopers in Garmin was this.

Will there be riders on the team who have doped in the past? I don't doubt it. Will anyone dope on this team from now on? I'm betting my reputation on it that they won't. Taken from Cycle Sport Oct 2007

I think he has been also clear on numerous occasion's that if a rider is called by any authorities to talk about past doping, they are required to do so and in a truthful manner.

Haven talked with pro riders about JV/Garmin and listened to a few podcasts from Mike Creed, it would seem that JV is not some super guy. He seem's far from the perfect boss but like most bosses has to make the hard decisions. According to those in the know, he can be particularly harsh and nasty to riders who are no longer staying with the team and can also be very petty. The Trent Lowe case clearly bears that out and the way he treated Hushovd also.

Apparently quite a few of the guys who have left Garmin are less than fulsome in their praise of JV. Of course if you are fired, you are always likely to have a grievance especially if you feel you have been wronged. JV has never tried to deny that fact and has admitted that he is in fact not perfect(Creed podcasts).

What I have heard in his favour though is that he is genuine about the team's anti-doping stance, that seemingly has never wavered. I think people seem to think that this stance equates to him being some super nice guy which is clearly not the case. Chances are if JV was my boss, I might not like him either.

Like totally like super awesome post.

 

[sniper]

(snipped for brevity)
* lack of transparency in terms of domestique profiles being released for comparison, or a full profile from start to finish for a clean GT winner

in this particular respect, this snippet from prentice's leaked email speaks volumes about the gap between garmins talk and garmins walk:

As part of our transparency policy, we have offered to make data available to journalists upon formal request... a couple of you have already been involved in that process. That is a very limited and controlled
process, so don't worry that journalist have free access to the
numbers.

Second, please understand that this is about perception rather than
reality. Of course we all know the "perception is reality" thing, so
know too that while we trust everyone this issue is quite important.

here a decent piece on (the lack of) transparency with special respect to garmin/hesjedal/vaughters.
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentra...l-Weening-and-the-many-shades-of-transparency

 

[Ferminal]

Vande Velde has retired, let's see everything, no reason not to.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure about ALM and FDJ, I used to think Bbox were a good clean outfit.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Vande Velde has retired, let's see everything, no reason not to.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure about ALM and FDJ, I used to think Bbox were a good clean outfit.

yep, lets see if he decides to really contribute something to the anti doping fight. Doubt he will, but you never know.

 

[Netserk]

JV's own twitter pic is of him in Milan, the day of the final tt with the trophy in his hands.

Do you know where he was for the rest of the race?

 

[blackcat]

Vande Velde has retired, let's see everything, no reason not to.

if VdV was an open book and his wife was scared of hgh in her fridge in gerona, and the rest of the hijinks he got up to, then this would severely limit his future earning power within cycling.

 

[Beech Mtn]

JV's own twitter pic is of him in Milan, the day of the final tt with the trophy in his hands.

Why was Lance skulking around behind JV's back at the Giro? Did he come to Italy to shank Vaughters, but the plan was foiled when he was inadvertently caught in a photo at the last moment?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I would like to also add that Garmin have been at the top now for five years and they are still to have a doping case of any sort in that time, I mean cases related to that time period, not retro-active cases.

This is another "never tested positive" and we know the reliability of that metric. If you want to get really extreme, you can say JV's testing program is to keep riders in "never tested positive" range. It probably isn't, but again, this is Pro Cycling and there are liars everywhere including in the federation.

On the other hand AG2R have had 3 doping related cases in the same period, Georges, Houanard and Valjavec.

Again, we know the UCI ignores some positives and enforces others. Why? Who knows!

Peripheral to this observation is the French anti-doping system has more judicial law regulating it than most other countries. I don't know for sure how it impacts positives, my guess is it does. Probably a question for another thread.

So having some stated anti-doping policy on a web-site is not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, it is. AG2r's actions are totally consistent with their stated policies. The same cannot be said about JV's squad because we don't know what the policies are!

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying JV's squad is the new Festina/USPS. I'm saying you have to be open to the possibility that Garmin riders are doping based on the long history of the sport's federation.

For whatever reason in cycling we'll probably find out years from now after SOL kicks in how clean JV's riders were.

 

[sniper]

This is another "never tested positive" and we know the reliability of that metric. If you want to get really extreme, you can say JV's testing program is to keep riders in "never tested positive" range. It probably isn't, but again, this is Pro Cycling and there are liars everywhere including in the federation.



Again, we know the UCI ignores some positives and enforces others. Why? Who knows!

Peripheral to this observation is the French anti-doping system has more judicial law regulating it than most other countries. I don't know for sure how it impacts positives, my guess is it does. Probably a question for another thread.



Yes, it is. AG2r's actions are totally consistent with their stated policies. The same cannot be said about JV's squad because we don't know what the policies are!

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying JV's squad is the new Festina/USPS. I'm saying you have to be open to the possibility that Garmin riders are doping based on the long history of the sport's federation.

For whatever reason in cycling we'll probably find out years from now after SOL kicks in how clean JV's riders were.

well put .......

 

[pmcg76]

thanx, that's proving my point. he can't possibly monitor all his riders. we agree.

You say that JV should not defend his own riders when he has access to their blood profiles, power profiles and training details plus the doctors and coaches who work with them. They all answer to JV.

Yet on the other hand you want JV to call out SKY on nothing more than visual evidence. Do you see a slight double standard there.

 

[pmcg76]

This is another "never tested positive" and we know the reliability of that metric. If you want to get really extreme, you can say JV's testing program is to keep riders in "never tested positive" range. It probably isn't, but again, this is Pro Cycling and there are liars everywhere including in the federation.



Again, we know the UCI ignores some positives and enforces others. Why? Who knows!

Peripheral to this observation is the French anti-doping system has more judicial law regulating it than most other countries. I don't know for sure how it impacts positives, my guess is it does. Probably a question for another thread.



Yes, it is. AG2r's actions are totally consistent with their stated policies. The same cannot be said about JV's squad because we don't know what the policies are!

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying JV's squad is the new Festina/USPS. I'm saying you have to be open to the possibility that Garmin riders are doping based on the long history of the sport's federation.

For whatever reason in cycling we'll probably find out years from now after SOL kicks in how clean JV's riders were.

You are stating possibilities , just like the fact that Garmin are clean is a possibility also. There is no right or wrong. The one actual fact out there is that in five years, Garmin have not had a doping case. Yes, not tested positive means little but it is still an actual fact. The most dodgy case Garmin have had is the Trent Lowe case.

As I posted previously I have talked to people who would have had contact with riders who were at Garmin, their anti-doping policy seem's to be legit.
There is always a possibility that a rider is doping somewhere but then there is always a chance of a partner cheating on you as well.