JV talks, sort of

[Digger]

So may people seem convinced that Millar didn't tell the full story in his book but I am curious as to what people think he left out or lied about.

I believe Contador is innocent one example

Him saying initially that he doped with EPO three times. Yet in his book later on he admits it was a programme. I am all for confessions - but you only get one chance to confess properly.

 

[Benotti69]

That he actually stopped?

Someone produced a graph of certain dopers and their performance peaks prior to their doping bans and after. Piti and Millar and others managed higher peaks after their bans

 

[roundabout]

I dunno, he podiumed a super-dirty Dauphine with actual climbs and won the Worlds.

 

[Granville57]

Where is the real truth behind Arnie Baker, for example? Or, the real truth when Floyd told Will about Greg, gave Greg's number to Will, then apparently was completely unaware of the intimidation phone call while sitting right beside him during the entire call?

Valid questions, but would the answers relate as directly to cycling as Floyd's tales of busses and blood bags?

This is the same cuddly Floyd that seeks seven figure profits from exposing Lance.

But there are no guarantees there, and Floyd may end up with no monetary reward worth bragging about once the dust finally settles on this saga. Invoking the Feds, through the whistleblower tactic, may have been the only option available to truly bring this case into the light of day. Revenge, and a sense of justice (however one might define that, and to whomever that might apply) may be the only payback in the end. And that be enough. Who knows? I'm not presuming to speak for Floyd on this issue, but we haven't any idea at this point as to what he may or may not receive when all is said and done.

The same cuddly Floyd whose friends would openly recount how he would steal milk, drinking it straight from a carton subsequently replaced in a grocery store without paying. Oh, what a prankster. Laughable and harmless? Not to the store owner.

Childish and irresponsible behavior, no doubt. But has Floyd actually ever denied it?

They have all talked, sort of. But nobody has really told us much of anything save for the likes of Rasmussen and Tyler and JV.

And Floyd, right? Floyd imparted more insider knowledge, and at a more important time, the all the others combined, no?



ps
I'm not here to defend Floyd. I only aim to keep things as historically accurate as possible.

 

[Benotti69]

I dunno, he podiumed a super-dirty Dauphine with actual climbs and won the Worlds.

Which disproves JV's claptrap about doping going out of fashion in the peloton that even though Millar was beating his pre-ban performance peak he was not winning much!

 

[Granville57]

Where is the real truth behind Arnie Baker, for example? Or, the real truth when Floyd told Will about Greg, gave Greg's number to Will, then apparently was completely unaware of the intimidation phone call while sitting right beside him during the entire call?

Valid questions, but would the answers relate as directly to cycling as Floyd's tales of busses and blood bags?

This is the same cuddly Floyd that seeks seven figure profits from exposing Lance.

But there are no guarantees there, and Floyd may end up with no monetary reward worth bragging about once the dust finally settles on this saga. Invoking the Feds, through the whistleblower tactic, may have been the only option available to truly bring this case into the light of day. Revenge, and a sense of justice (however one might define that, and to whomever that might apply) may be the only payback in the end. And that be enough. Who knows? I'm not presuming to speak for Floyd on this issue, but we haven't any idea at this point as to what he may or may not receive when all is said and done.

The same cuddly Floyd whose friends would openly recount how he would steal milk, drinking it straight from a carton subsequently replaced in a grocery store without paying. Oh, what a prankster. Laughable and harmless? Not to the store owner.

Childish and irresponsible behavior, no doubt. But has Floyd actually ever denied it?

They have all talked, sort of. But nobody has really told us much of anything save for the likes of Rasmussen and Tyler and JV.

And Floyd, right? Floyd imparted more insider knowledge, and at a more important time, the all the others combined, no?


ps
I'm not here to defend Floyd. My only goal is to keep things as historically accurate as possible.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'd also be curious as to how Floyd knew about whistleblower cases in the first place? He was probably the only person in that position to be able to bring that case, but it wasn't his original intent was it?

Seemed to me he was coached.

Not to excuse any of the dishonesty, but it sure seems curious.

Personally, in his position, I would have done the same.

 

[del1962]

Couldn't Tyler have done the same?

 

[Granville57]

I'd also be curious as to how Floyd knew about whistleblower cases in the first place?

That, to me, was one of the most interesting revelations in Juliet Macur's book.

It was Prentice Steffen's idea.
He floated the idea to Floyd some years ago, to which Floyd, at first, scoffed at.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That, to me, was one of the most interesting revelations in Juliet Macur's book.

It was Prentice Steffen's idea.
He floated the idea to Floyd some years ago, to which Floyd, at first, scoffed at.

Ah thank you. Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Granville57]

Couldn't Tyler have done the same?

The same as Floyd? Sure. But he didn't.

Remember how excruciatingly difficult it was for Tyler to get the words out of his mouth during that 60 Minutes interview?

Contrast that with Floyd during his Graham Bensinger interview—cool cucumber, totally at ease with revealing the dark truths.

Floyd was always much more of a rebel then Tyler. Hamilton eventually came around though.

 

[thehog]

I'd also be curious as to how Floyd knew about whistleblower cases in the first place? He was probably the only person in that position to be able to bring that case, but it wasn't his original intent was it?

Seemed to me he was coached.

Not to excuse any of the dishonesty, but it sure seems curious.

Personally, in his position, I would have done the same.

I think he is probably one of the most intelligent guys to ride a bike professionally. Certainly smarter than Armstrong and his entire legal team. Smarter than the UCI and its entire legal team.

Don't think he needed to be coached with respect to the law.

I also don't think anyone else would have done the same because because anyone else just wouldnt have the balls to execute it. That helps.

 

[ralphbert]

So may people seem convinced that Millar didn't tell the full story in his book but I am curious as to what people think he left out or lied about.

There are not many people i dislike but St David is certainly one. A self absorbed tw*twaffle with the same value to the anti doping movement as a chocolate teapot.

I prefer the unrepentant doper like vino or valverde who don't insult my intelligence with such recklass abandon. Bassos story was a pretty good effort but he is just so damn likable i give him a pass.

 

[blackcat]

There are not many people i dislike but St David is certainly one. A self absorbed tw*twaffle with the same value to the anti doping movement as a chocolate teapot.

I prefer the unrepentant doper like vino or valverde who don't insult my intelligence with such recklass abandon. Bassos story was a pretty good effort but he is just so damn likable i give him a pass.

ricky riccio.

worlds favourite doper, unless you are cav

 

[ralphbert]

ricky riccio.

worlds favourite doper, unless you are cav

Yes but Cavs vitriol was balanced by Cancellaras fabanese "Shoot him to the moon", he was about to add "Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars" but the reporter had wondered off before he could finish.

 

[Energy Starr]

Yup.

A small difference between the admission of doping for one or two events, or for a couple of years on a bad team that everyone already knows about, and admitting that virtually all of your results were tainted. A small difference between admitting that you doped and getting whistle-blower benefits versus admitting that your career was a sham and any success undeserved.

Plus, the more truth you tell the more the collateral damage to friends and family.

Where is the real truth behind Arnie Baker, for example? Or, the real truth when Floyd told Will about Greg, gave Greg's number to Will, then apparently was completely unaware of the intimidation phone call while sitting right beside him during the entire call?

This is the same cuddly Floyd that seeks seven figure profits from exposing Lance. The same cuddly Floyd whose friends would openly recount how he would steal milk, drinking it straight from a carton subsequently replaced in a grocery store without paying. Oh, what a prankster. Laughable and harmless? Not to the store owner.

Or, by analogy, think of Lance and Carmichael. Or Lance and the USOC. Or Lance's refusal on Oprah to discuss the Hospital room.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, JV actually deserves credit for detailing his doping history to the NY Times and then to Joe Lindsey at Bicycling.

He revealed how anti-doping Nunez opened the door to EPO for him, and how he doped behind Legeay's back out of guilt and concern for CA's flagging results. How he got freaked out by IV self-injection versus sub-cutaneous. It is fascinating that these two manager's went out of their way to avoid doping.

Taking JV at his word - bear with me on that as many are not so charitable - experiences with Nunez and Legeay arguably provided the critical leadership examples to pursue an open no doping policy.

Why are all of these other guys still so reluctant to tell us more of the truth?

The collective experiences must hold enough material to fill a library.

Hincapie tied the record for most Tours completed.

Yet, think about when and how this was accomplished. Hincapie flourished and lasted throughout the '60s era' (i.e. when HCT reached the 60s) better than anyone. As his career progressed, as his body took on more wear and tear, and as doping became even more sophisticated, George became a better climber. If anyone succeeded during the worst doping in the sport's history, it was George.

They have all talked, sort of. But nobody has really told us much of anything save for the likes of Rasmussen and Tyler and JV.

There are many more dark stories yet to see the light of day.

Dave.

Kind of a side note, but what do you suspect is the real truth regarding Arnie Baker? I'm just curious because I happen to know him. I'm genuinely asking.

 

[blackcat]

Kind of a side note, but what do you suspect is the real truth regarding Arnie Baker? I'm just curious because I happen to know him. I'm genuinely asking.

the hacking of the Swiss lab that was testing urine for the Tour?

the strategy over the Qui Tam federal compensation claim

the strategy over the Lemond phonecall

the defense for his testo positive

the Floyd Fairness Fund strategy

who was the LAndis brains trust? I think Landis is one of the smarter athletes and is his own man, but the pattern of choices he made was not good, like he admits. I will give him a wider berth than normal, because he stepped into the hornets nest of pro cycling. I wont do the moral relativism, but it does explain the lack of rigour in his decisions

 

[D-Queued]

I believe Contador is innocent one example

Him saying initially that he doped with EPO three times. Yet in his book later on he admits it was a programme. I am all for confessions - but you only get one chance to confess properly.

Apparently confessing is a slippery slope. You start confessing, and it just gets deeper and deeper!

...

And Floyd, right? Floyd imparted more insider knowledge, and at a more important time, the all the others combined, no?

ps
I'm not here to defend Floyd. My only goal is to keep things as historically accurate as possible.

If/when Floyd gets a payday out of the whistle blower suit, I will cheer loudly.

In terms of how much insider knowledge has been miparted, I may have truly missed it, but I still have a lot of questions about the LNDD hack, about former (especially Phonak) teammates, about doping supplier rings, etc., than I can recall illumination about.

Anyhow, yes, Floyd could/should be added to that list - notwithstanding the points above. And points are well taken on David Millar as well.

None of the confessors are perfect, obviously. And there are plenty of questions left unanswered. At least in this, expanded, list of cases, we have a comprehensive picture of their doping. Unlike those who have barely told any truths, those that continue to hide behind many veils, or those that seem to add at least one lie with each truth allegedly told.

Dave.

 

[Energy Starr]

the hacking of the Swiss lab that was testing urine for the Tour?

the strategy over the Qui Tam federal compensation claim

the strategy over the Lemond phonecall

the defense for his testo positive

the Floyd Fairness Fund strategy

who was the LAndis brains trust? I think Landis is one of the smarter athletes and is his own man, but the pattern of choices he made was not good, like he admits. I will give him a wider berth than normal, because he stepped into the hornets nest of pro cycling. I wont do the moral relativism, but it does explain the lack of rigour in his decisions

I remember the trouble over the lab hacking. I recall the defense of the testo positive. I have never spoken with AB about this stuff but would you allow for the posibility that FL had lied to/fooled AB into helping him? The other issue I have never heard connected to AB in any way. Interesting stuff.

 

[D-Queued]

the hacking of the Swiss lab that was testing urine for the Tour?

the strategy over the Qui Tam federal compensation claim

the strategy over the Lemond phonecall

the defense for his testo positive

the Floyd Fairness Fund strategy

who was the LAndis brains trust? I think Landis is one of the smarter athletes and is his own man, but the pattern of choices he made was not good, like he admits. I will give him a wider berth than normal, because he stepped into the hornets nest of pro cycling. I wont do the moral relativism, but it does explain the lack of rigour in his decisions

(Veering further and further from JV, but...)

Add - who introduced Floyd to doping?

A well meaning friend with cycling credits and medical connections?

Dave.

 

[pmcg76]

Someone produced a graph of certain dopers and their performance peaks prior to their doping bans and after. Piti and Millar and others managed higher peaks after their bans

Would be interested to know which of his post-ban years were better than 2003. World TT Title, 3rd in Dauphine-Libere, 3rd Classique des Alpes. Considering Millar had never shown huge climbing ability, they were big results that have never been repeated.

 

[blackcat]

(Veering further and further from JV, but...)

Add - who introduced Floyd to doping?

A well meaning friend with cycling credits and medical connections?

Dave.

PS. (p'raps) well before Europe.

like I dont buy the DZ sadcase crying because of the promise to his father when Lances railed upon him and "forced" him to dope. cry me a river. go home, go to uni, get a real job.

 

[blackcat]

Would be interested to know which of his post-ban years were better than 2003. World TT Title, 3rd in Dauphine-Libere, 3rd Classique des Alpes. Considering Millar had never shown huge climbing ability, they were big results that have never been repeated.

Classique des Alpes in the Pyrenees did not have to be a grimpeur. I think Cookie (Baden Cooke) may have podiumed, or the very least he got a top ten.

 

[pmcg76]

Classique des Alpes in the Pyrenees did not have to be a grimpeur. I think Cookie (Baden Cooke) may have podiumed, or the very least he got a top ten.

Why don't you bother checking things before posting nonsense.

 

[blackcat]

Why don't you bother checking things before posting nonsense.

cant find the result i am looking for.