JV talks, sort of

[will10]

Full transcript of JV interview:

http://www.bicycling.com/garmin-insider/featured-stories/jonathan-vaughters-talks-doping-reform

Really worth a read for anyone who hasn't done yet.

 

[sniper]

Really worth a read for anyone who hasn't done yet.

more of the same, right? or did you spot anything important that wasn't there in the shorter version?

reading through page 1 immediately brings back several inconsistencies:

Yes—I’m first to say that without—let’s start with Kimmage, and I’m sure there was someone before that, but that without Kimmage, without Frankie [Andreu], without Floyd [Landis], Tyler [Hamilton], without Jorg Jaksche, [Bjarne] Riis,

what's Riis doing in that list?
Of course, Riis is the guy JV has the most in common with, both symbolizing the central problem cycling is facing, and both unwilling to publicly imply other dopers.

that was the soil that allowed [Garmin’s] Ryder [Hesjedal] to win the Giro d’Italia clean.

hesjedal clean? says who? ahh. says his DS. plausible.
where is the evidence that hesjedal was clean?

 

[hrotha]

Or, he just did what Vaughters did. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to lower your Hct

Contador's doping methods can't be compared to JV's. Vaughters didn't even have to bother with transfusions, he only needed to use EPO. There was no passport, so he only needed to make sure he was under 52 just before a blood test. If his hematocrit dropped to 47 due to training, he could bring it up to 52 and no one would care about the spike. He says he didn't dope at Crédit Agricole except for that one last time shortly before retiring, in 2002. Interestingly, by then an EPO test had been introduced, and he had been off the loop with regards to doping methods for a couple of years, so it's possible he would have been caught with some bad luck on his side.

2007 Contador didn't have to deal with the passport, but passport cases do use previous blood values, so maybe (maybe; the UCI likes a cover up, so we can't know for sure) they were roughly consistent. If he has a naturally high hematocrit he can't gain as much as others through blood manipulation, but there's still an advantage there.

Regardless, not all doping is blood doping. Some non-EPO stuff like HGH are pretty efficient too, although in different ways.

 

[sniper]

the interviewer makes this sharp remark

One of my first experiences with that was the reaction to Paul Kimmage, when Verbruggen said it was simply sour grapes from guys who couldn’t cut it anymore.

and vaughters doesn't even address it directly. poor stuff from JV, considering the standards he has put on himself as THE anti-doping DS.

 

[sniper]

Okay, time to make it a bit easier, as you are utterly lost (which is no surprise considering your lack of knowledge over Sky and Leinders is jarring):

Leinders. was. Upper. Management. at. Rabo. during. both. chicken. affair. as. Humanplasma.

There. is. undisputed. proof. the. Upper. Management. including. GL. was. involved. in. fraud. during. the. chicken. affair

There. is. undisputed. evidence. GL. was. involved. in doping. at. rabo. and. actually. had. a. carte. blanche. to. make. the. medical. decisions. to. create. a. GT. winner.

Stating Leinders is just a doctor is completely and utterly moronic. And DB certainly knew this as this was not only in the press, a judge awarded the chicken approx. one million in a case where the management team (including GL) was shown to be fraudulent.

Why would you hire GL? DB said he was a wizzkid with Saddle sores

so you're seriously implying Sky are doping?
JV won't be pleased.

 

[sniper]

Paul Kimmage Interview:
Armstrong, the UCI and the true winners of those Tours
"“I’m not being flippant about the case, but I’m absolutely dismayed and astounded that the UCI’s idea of fighting doping is to start chasing people like me and start bringing people like me to court,” he said. “That for me is totally reflective of why the sport is in the mess the sport is in now. Bjarne Riis and Johan Brunyeel are paraded and applauded as leaders within the sport, and I’m chased through the Swiss courts and vilified. That is totally reflective of what is f**king wrong with this sport, and why it is in the mess that it’s in.”

THIS
It's so damn clear that Riis is one of the major facilitators out there, and yet JV celebrates him as some sort of anti-doping crusader, and even places him on one level with Kimmage, Andreu and Landis:

Interviewer: One of my first experiences with that was the reaction to Paul Kimmage, when Verbruggen said it was simply sour grapes from guys who couldn’t cut it anymore.

Vaughters: Yes—I’m first to say that without—let’s start with Kimmage, and I’m sure there was someone before that, but that without Kimmage, without Frankie [Andreu], without Floyd [Landis], Tyler [Hamilton], without Jorg Jaksche, [Bjarne] Riis, you can go on and on, without all these people, the op-ed I wrote and the impact I feel like it’s having, I don’t know if that would be possible without those people. In fact, I’d say it probably wasn’t. I feel like the only reason, in a roundabout way, everything that Floyd went through and the scandal of [Operación] Puerto, like those two things, that whole three-year period, the pressure that put the sport under to clean up and put in new measures and the scrutiny it was under, that was the soil that allowed [Garmin’s] Ryder [Hesjedal] to win the Giro d’Italia clean. To me it’s not separable. If you have no Puerto, you have no Floyd Landis scandal, can you win the 2012 Giro clean? I don’t think so.

And that's not the first time JV is putting Riis in the sunny spotlight.
At the same time, JV can't get a good word about Kimmage out of his mouth.

I might be seeing ghosts here, but I might not.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Re: JV and Riis.

I think he's lauding him for being honest for what he did. He admitted before he had to.

That's not an easy thing to do. Look what the sh*t show has now become with Fancey Pants. Far cry...

 

[GJB123]

hesjedal clean? says who? ahh. says his DS. plausible.
where is the evidence that hesjedal was clean?

How do you suggest going about proving one is clean. You can provide some information suggesting one is clean, but proving? Hardly!

So fat I haven't seen anything in Giro 2012 by Hesjedal that I would flag as indicative of doing or extra-terestrial in any other sense. That should do for now.

Regards
GJ

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Nanaimo...

 

[GJB123]

Also, can we have JV explain his geographic preferences for training camps?

Sorry for not providing links, but I just recalled (somebody must have posted it somewhere upthread) that Garmin trained near Denver (recently?), presumably to make use of the services of ISM who is stationed there, even though ISM isn't contractually connected to the team anymore.

So far so good.

But is it a coincidence that Garmin also trained in Allicante last year, i.e. next to Valencia where Del Moral is stationed? Note that Del Moral is linked to Garmin in different ways, not only through Trent Lowe/MattWhite, but also through USPS, where JV must have worked with him directly.

or am I seeing ghosts here?

As far as training locations go, you do have a tendency to see ghosts.

 

[sniper]

Re: JV and Riis.

I think he's lauding him for being honest for what he did. He admitted before he had to.

That's not an easy thing to do. Look what the sh*t show has now become with Fancey Pants. Far cry...

agreed, not easy, but there was no other option for Riis with the Telekom scam coming to the surface.
I think kimmage is closer to the truth when he places Riis on one level with Bruyneel.

How do you suggest going about proving one is clean. You can provide some information suggesting one is clean, but proving? Hardly!

So fat I haven't seen anything in Giro 2012 by Hesjedal that I would flag as indicative of doing or extra-terestrial in any other sense. That should do for now.

Regards
GJ

Agreed, but when JV says "marginal gains, folks, that's how Hesjedal was able to win the Giro clean", that makes me puke, because we've heard it from Lance, we've heard it from Bruyneel, and we're hearing it from Brailsford.
Therefore, if JV wants us to believe Hesjedal won clean, he has to come up with some other indications, rather than just throw sand into our eyes.

As far as training locations go, you do have a tendency to see ghosts.

well, as I said, we can't blaim Saxo for having tried. And it did win them one favorable CAS vote (out of three) plus a rather mild closing letter in which supplement contamination was considered more likely than blooddoping

 

[GJB123]

well, as I said, we can't blaim Saxo for having tried. And it did win them one favorable CAS vote (out of three) plus a rather mild closing letter in which supplement contamination was considered more likely than blooddoping

Don't pull that tinfoil hat too tight on your head because otherwise it might stop the blood flowing to your brains.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Don't pull that tinfoil hat too tight on your head because otherwise it might stop the blood flowing to your brains.

Good advise, but i think you are too late, because no-one on CAS "voted" favorably for Contador.

 

[sniper]

Good advise, but i think you are too late, because no-one on CAS "voted" favorably for Contador.

sorry, had been under the impression that he lost 2:1, but if he lost 3:0 then i apologize for the error and thank you Dr. M. for the heads-up. The fact remains that CAS was so kind as to assure Contador would not be brandmarked as a blooddoper, even though the blooddoping scenario was at all times more likely. Just ask Ashenden, or, if you owe Contador a favor, don't ask Ashenden

GJB123: Don't pull that tinfoil hat too tight on your head because otherwise it might stop the blood flowing to your brains.

Talking about tinfoilhats, never mind that you were the most vocal opponent of the idea that plasticizers would be put forward by WADA in the case against Contador. Guess you were wrong. In fact, you stated on several occasions that the stake-tale had more merit. Wrong again. That's not only wearing a tinfoil hat, that's wearing tinfoil eyepatches.

Anyway, this is going off topic. back to JV!

 

[GJB123]

Talking about tinfoilhats, never mind that you were the most vocal opponent of the idea that plasticizers would be put forward by WADA in the case against Contador. Guess you were wrong. In fact, you stated on several occasions that the stake-tale had more merit. Wrong again. That's not only wearing a tinfoil hat, that's wearing tinfoil eyepatches.

Anyway, this is going off topic. back to JV!

Thank you for taking this off-topic and thank for paraphrasing my position wrong yet again. I guess it must be the lack of oxygen and blood in your brains.

Regards
GJ

 

[sniper]

Thank you for taking this off-topic and thank for paraphrasing my position wrong yet again. I guess it must be the lack of oxygen and blood in your brains.

Regards
GJ

can't you for once say something nice to me?
jeez.

 

[sniper]

Kimmage with wise words on Vaughters and Garmin:

“Vaughters and the Garmin team have been caught up in this before and doped themselves but they have really shown a great attitude in terms of taking the sport forward and learning from those lessons,” Kimmage says.

And yet in the past two years, Vaughters has also contributed to one of the more discouraging examples of cycling’s failure to awake from the nightmares of its past. In seeking to form a breakaway league operating outside the UCI’s sphere, Vaughters aligned himself with his former US Postal manager Johan Bruyneel, even while the federal investigator Jeff Novitzky and later USADA were amassing evidence on his activities.

“I agree with you,” Kimmage concedes. “I’ve singled Vaughters out as someone I would keep in the sport but I do have reservations about him. I had reservations about him hiring [Thomas] Dekker, I had reservations about him trying to hire Contador. I thought that was the wrong thing to do.

“But on the whole, I think he has been very positive for the sport and I think were he not working within the constraints of the governing body as it is now under McQuaid and Verbruggen, we could see some real difference there. But I agree, if he was talking about this breakaway league and associating with Bruyneel, that’s a serious black mark against him in my view, definitely.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/kimmage-uci-needs-root-and-branch-surgery

 

[MaxVO2]

JV has his many faults and motives, but he's at least he's talking about it and trying to do something. I don't know if there are others in his similar position (as a DS or other pros) that are doing it in public - they may be doing it behind the scenes. I do know one thing: Kimmage: UCI needs root and branch surgery. People have to get behind these reformers. If not JV, then who?

Here's a good piece from: the guardian

During the final week of the 88th Tour de France in July 2001, a 28-year-old American rider called Jonathan Vaughters was riding with some team-mates during the rest day in Pau, when a wasp became trapped in his sunglasses. Vaughters was allergic to stings and when he returned to the team hotel, his eye was the size of a golf ball. "The only thing that's going to reduce that swelling is a cortisone injection but if you take it you'll test positive," his team doctor told him. ...

Armstrong did not disguise his contempt. "Poor Jonathan and his stupid little French team," he spat. "What the **** are you like? If you had stayed with me, this would have been taken care of but now you are not going to finish the Tour de France because of a wasp sting."

Vaughters was distraught. "I thought: '****! Here I am, on this team that is really trying to stick by the books and this guy is making fun of us for playing by the rules. That was the moment that effectively ended my career," he says. "I didn't want to race any more. It just didn't seem to matter to me after that."

Armstrong liked to boast about his friends in high places and those friends had served him well. During that first Tour win in 1999, he should have been disqualified after testing positive for a corticosteroid but was saved by a backdated therapeutic exemption. In 2002, Floyd Landis says that Armstrong told him that another positive test at the 2001 Tour of Switzerland had been overturned.

 

[Benotti69]

I would like to ask Vaughter's if he would taken the injection, if they could guarantee he would not fail the test if tested?

I bet he would have taken the injection and not rejected it saying well it may give a bit performance boost and that would be cheating.

His doctor refused it. It wasn't Vaughters saying no.

 

[hrotha]

What I never understood is why some vague knee pain was enough to get a TUE, but an obvious allergic reaction to a bee sting wasn't.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I would like to ask Vaughter's if he would taken the injection, if they could guarantee he would not fail the test if tested?

I bet he would have taken the injection and not rejected it saying well it may give a bit performance boost and that would be cheating.

His doctor refused it. It wasn't Vaughters saying no.

You want him to explain something he already explained?
He said he wanted to take the injection.

So that night, I'm basically fighting with Roger (Legeay) and the team doctor. To me, it was just a ridiculous injustice. "Let's just write in my health booklet knee injury, and somehow it made my face swell up and we don't know why, and we'll just take the cortisone and it'll be gone". And they just wouldn't let me do it, "We're not going to do that".

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/jonathan-vaughters-interview

 

[Benotti69]

You want him to explain something he already explained?
He said he wanted to take the injection.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/jonathan-vaughters-interview

Why thankyou so kind.

 

[Benotti69]

Hey JV!

Seems Ashenden don't believe your BS about clean cycling

I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams.

and this

Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

'A new guise' What a few in here have always believed. It aint clean or cleaner!

This BS that Sassi spouted was microdoping, nothing to do with clean cycling. Just keeping it under or to what were the levels of some of the most talented riders ever, ie LeMond.

So teams are probably trying to find the riders who respond best to doping to that line and achieving. The likes of Hesjedal, Wiggins, Froome, Talansky etc.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Hey JV!

Seems Ashenden don't believe your BS about clean cycling



and this



'A new guise' What a few in here have always believed. It aint clean or cleaner!

This BS that Sassi spouted was microdoping, nothing to do with clean cycling. Just keeping it under or to what were the levels of some of the most talented riders ever, ie LeMond.

So teams are probably trying to find the riders who respond best to doping to that line and achieving. The likes of Hesjedal, Wiggins, Froome, Talansky etc.

It did seem to be pointing the finger fairly and squarely at Sky and Garmin.

Where is the old Prentice email again?

 

[Von Mises]

Hey JV!

Seems Ashenden don't believe your BS about clean cycling



and this



'A new guise' What a few in here have always believed. It aint clean or cleaner!

This BS that Sassi spouted was microdoping, nothing to do with clean cycling. Just keeping it under or to what were the levels of some of the most talented riders ever, ie LeMond.

So teams are probably trying to find the riders who respond best to doping to that line and achieving. The likes of Hesjedal, Wiggins, Froome, Talansky etc.

What Vaughters and Asheden are saying are not necessarily contradictory. There are differnces in their views, both of them are saying that cycling is cleaner, not clean. Both of them are arguing for similar changes: more money into testing, testing should be done by independent agency etc.