JV talks, sort of

[hiero2]

agree fully.

Note though that JV isn't meh about marginal gains. In fact his most important claims (1. cycling is getting cleaner, 2. you can now win a GT clean) depend entirely on the notion of marginal gains and, by extension, on the assumption that Sky are indeed doing it all based on marginal gains.
So if Sky turns out to be dirty, then JV's two central claims will turn out to be nothing but hot air.
For now, if Sky is dodgy, JV's two central claims are dodgy.
(imo of course!)

You are letting your feelings get in the way of your logic. Sky being dodgy or even dirty does not disprove nor discredit JV's claims (as listed by you above). JV's claims #1 and 2 above are not connected to Sky's performance. If we saw a larger number of other teams and riders getting caught in current time, then you could use that to refute #1.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't see a pattern, I see a list of teams (many which were dirty) that he was with. If that's enough for you, fine.

Indeed - and the only answer is to stay away from the sport.

Ferrari was essentially Armstrong personal doping doc, del Moral was the teams.

IsM certainly knew what was going on at some of the teams he was with- and he may well have had an active role in that. that's certainly possible.

To the highlighted - sure, interesting and certainly worthy of examination. Which is why I have repeatedly asked for anything regarding him.
I am aware of the history of the teams he was with and the riders on those teams - no need to repeat that.

Del Moral is named in the USADA investigation.

Armstrong saw Ferarri personally, del Moral probably implemented Ferarri's doping program for the rest of the GT team.

By that analysis IsM is a doping Doctor. But there is not any evidence but lots of dirty doping dots.

 

[sniper]

meet San Millan
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/aero-position-isnt-everything-31165/

http://www.cafescicolorado.org/SanMillan.htm

 

[sniper]

meet San Millán

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/aero-position-isnt-everything-31165/

http://www.cafescicolorado.org/SanMillan.htm

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Del Moral is named in the USADA investigation.

Armstrong saw Ferarri personally, del Moral probably implemented Ferarri's doping program for the rest of the GT team.

By that analysis IsM is a doping Doctor. By there is not any evidence but lots of dirty doping dots.

I thought it was obvious from my post, but just to clear it up - Ferrari was LAs Doc, del Moral the teams doping Doc. That's not in dispute.

And if you are wondering why and how del Moral got named - check the name of this thread.

 

[sniper]

Is that thingie around his wrist what I think it is?

 

[Benotti69]

I thought it was obvious from my post, but just to clear it up - Ferrari was LAs Doc, del Moral the teams doping Doc. That's not in dispute.

And if you are wondering why and how del Moral got named - check the name of this thread.

I got that, repeated it and said by the same analysis, IsM has to be a doping doctor aswell.

But like all of Garmin who had to travel that hard dark road of doping, they have bared their souls to the God of Cleanliness (JV) and returned purged of their sins and now live in the pusuit of clean pro cycling.

 

[sniper]

San Millán apologizing dope in cycling:

About doping in professional sports, especially cycling, Dr. San Millán has pointed out that no sport is more carefully surveyed than cycling, and that the more you test, the more you catch, so the sport will look "dirtier."
He has said: "Imagine here in Denver, there's an alcohol test at every traffic light, and there could even be random tests even before you put your key in the car, boom, there's the police there to test you. In absolute numbers Denver would be the city with the highest index of drunk drivers in the world. Imagine on the other side, in New York City, there's only two policemen, two traffic lights, and everybody knows where they are. In raw numbers, New York's positive numbers would pretty much be zero. At the end of the day, you'd be much safer driving here in Denver because there's so much control compared to New York.


That's pretty much what happens in sports. We hear about more doping cases in cycling just because they do so much more with the tests. We see in other sports they either never test for foreign substances, or they test for only a few substances, so you don't see the whole picture there. Many people miss the whole picture there. The statistics for doping in cycling are probably the lowest in sports. They do about 10,000 tests per year and we only see only 4 or 5 cases per year. So we're talking .04-.05%." While a number of his former employers have been beset by doping scandals, San Millán is widely regarded as an exponent of a clean cycling.

pretty big friggin role-eyes right here.

http://www.cafescicolorado.org/SanMillan.htm

 

[Benotti69]

San Millán apologizing dope in cycling:



pretty big friggin role-eyes right here.

http://www.cafescicolorado.org/SanMillan.htm

Yeah and the traffic light at the ToC just happended to be broken everytime the race came by! Who knows how many other traffic lights conveniently didn't work or the cop at the light looked the other way?

More myth spewing!

 

[sniper]

Just came to think of it. If, as ISM claims,

"the statistics for doping in cycling are probably the lowest in sports. They do about 10,000 tests per year and we only see only 4 or 5 cases per year. So we're talking .04-.05%."

then the guy is extremely unlucky to have had

"a number of his former employers (...) beset by doping scandals"

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

To the highlighted - sure, interesting and certainly worthy of examination. Which is why I have repeatedly asked for anything regarding him.
I am aware of the history of the teams he was with and the riders on those teams - no need to repeat that.

So would it be fair to say in your opinion mister ISM can't be - without a shadow of a doubt - seen as a crusader for clean cycling? Given the numerous positives/Fuentes/Ferrari/Checcini clients at his teams? Or was he some sort of a Leinders who's task was to keep them alive?

 

[Benotti69]

Just came to think of it. If, as ISM claims, then the guy is extremely unlucky to have had

"the statistics for doping in cycling are probably the lowest in sports. They do about 10,000 tests per year and we only see only 4 or 5 cases per year. So we're talking .04-.05%."

Been a long time since there were 4/5 cases in a year. This year has seen 9 to date!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So would it be fair to say in your opinion mister ISM can't be - without a shadow of a doubt - seen as a crusader for clean cycling? Given the numerous positives/Fuentes/Ferrari/Checcini clients at his teams? Or was he some sort of a Leinders who's task was to keep them alive?

You said earlier "believe what u want to believe, I don't care" -my opinion is irrelevant to the thread.

But just to be clear - so you don't keep asking.
No, it is not fair to say anything that I did not say.

I know the history of those teams, I have no opinion of IsM, he might be dodgy, he might be clean.
Which is why I requested if you have anything more on the guy then share - that will help me make an informed opinion.
If you do not have anything then I am not interested in your interpretation, as indeed you should not be in mine.

 

[Benotti69]

This is the perfect time for JV to come in here and set the record straight.

Tell us that IsM did work for all those teams as a doping doctor/physio but his sports stuff is top notch and he has repented so we gave him a chance, like DZ, CVdV, Millar etc....

But without some kind of transparency how can we know? And what kind of transparency is proof?

This is the problem with JV. Talk means nothing in pro sports. So why talk about it without some form of proof. Better to not make any proclaimations and get on with it in whatever way you see fit. If you are clean, great, but get on with the racing and unless we can see the cleanliness dont try to convince us, because we have had too much of that BS. So it will always be BS unless you can truly show different.

IsM is the latest example. Lim another.

With the current UCI, there is no point to talk about clean sport from inside it, because everyone knows that in order for it to be clean the UCI need to be out of the picture for the testing. Till then it is talk.

 

[sniper]

Also, can we have JV explain his geographic preferences for training camps?

Sorry for not providing links, but I just recalled (somebody must have posted it somewhere upthread) that Garmin trained near Denver (recently?), presumably to make use of the services of ISM who is stationed there, even though ISM isn't contractually connected to the team anymore.

So far so good.

But is it a coincidence that Garmin also trained in Allicante last year, i.e. next to Valencia where Del Moral is stationed? Note that Del Moral is linked to Garmin in different ways, not only through Trent Lowe/MattWhite, but also through USPS, where JV must have worked with him directly.

or am I seeing ghosts here?

 

[Benotti69]

Also, can we have JV explain his geographic preferences for training camps?

Sorry for not providing links, but I just recalled (somebody must have posted it somewhere upthread) that Garmin trained near Denver (recently?), presumably to make use of the services of ISM who is stationed there, even though ISM isn't contractually connected to the team anymore.

So far so good.

But is it a coincidence that Garmin also trained in Allicante last year, i.e. next to Valencia where Del Moral is stationed? Note that Del Moral is linked to Garmin in different ways, not only through Trent Lowe/MattWhite, but also through USPS, where JV must have worked with him directly.

or am I seeing ghosts here?

I wouldn't expect any answers.

Lim is also based in Colorado. But that proves nowt.

I am curious to why Hesjedal trains in Hawaii a lot.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

With a little research you find thatred cell mass increases are directly propor-tional to VO2 and anaerobic thresholdpower increases. That would mean that if you increased your haematocrit from 42 percent to 48 per cent you would increase yourpower by 12 percent.

From a [an] o2 uptake standpoint the percentage gain is about half of the increase in total hemoglobin mass. So, in modern day where the bio-passport would prevent any huge jumps in Hb, say you increased from 14g/dl to 15g/dl (this all assumes that plasma volume is totally stable, which is a very big assumption and almost impossible...but anyway..)..This would bring about a total Hb increase of 6.7% [actually 7.14%], so the o2 carrying capacity increase and corresponding power increase would be about half of that, so 3.35% [3.57%]. Of course, in 1996, you could go from 14g/dl to 19g/dl quite easily, yielding a power increase of more like 13% [almost 18% since 5/14=35.7%]! There is some diminishing return after about 16g/dl however because the red cells become so crowded they can no longer deliver oxygen as efficiently, so maybe "only" 10%.

whether the power gain from blood boosting is closer to 50% or 100% of the percentual increase in Hb mass.

depends on the physiology. No matter what, the relationship between hb and o2 consumption is linear. More recent thoughts lean towards a 50% correlation. Older ones lean towards 100%. I would say it is very difficult to gain beyond a 10% increase in LT power by increasing hb mass. Why? limitations in myoglobin and 02 transport due to red cell density getting too high and being inefficient.

Did you change your mind again?

at that point in time, you could increase your hematocrit say, from 39 to 60. That represents a 40-percent [almost 54%] increase in red blood cell carrying mass. That’s not a 50-percent increase in oxygen carrying capacity. It can be 1:1 in the 40s and then it goes to half that and then two, so it’s not a linear relationship. But let’s imagine it’s 20-percent improvement, back in ‘the 60s’ as we call them (named for the hematocrit some riders were reaching). A 20-percent power gain! Good climbers in the peloton produced 5.5 and 6 watts per kilogram at threshold. That’s the same as today. The guy at 5.5—the worst climber of this group—takes EPO and goes up 20 percent—he’s now at 6.3, 6.4 [6.6] watts per kilo.

Does good responders get ~7% more power when going from 14-15 or 13-14?

Was it very difficult to gain beyond a 10% increase in power by increasing hb mass in the "60's" or did riders improve by twice that much?

It is unclear what your views actually are.

And why are you so bad at really simple mathematics?

 

[Oldman]

I wouldn't expect any answers.

Lim is also based in Colorado. But that proves nowt.

I am curious to why Hesjedal trains in Hawaii a lot.

It's warm and the pot is very good. Women wear much less clothing there, which can be either more or less appealling. Men wear less clothing there which can be much less appealling.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I wouldn't expect any answers.

Lim is also based in Colorado. But that proves nowt.

I am curious to why Hesjedal trains in Hawaii a lot.

And also nice for CVV and team doc Sovndal in their little enterprise:
http://www.thrivehfm.com/bios.htm

 

[Kender]

Which reminds me, I asked you a couple of times (merely because I value your opinion, not because you're obliged to reply): what do you think of JV's marginal gains talk? You agree Sky is dodgy. Sky sells marginal gains as their winning formula.

yeah but their gains can hardly be called marginal

 

[Benotti69]

And also nice for CVV and team doc Sovndal in their little enterprise:
http://www.thrivehfm.com/bios.htm

Wonder how JV can explain CVdV still working with Lim. Surely VdV should be kicked out off Garmin!

Team Clean..............as the toilets in a Lagos slum!

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

@Vaughters JV, your hemocrit exemption of 52 for a naturally high level. Was it possible to fake a "natural" high level?

@IainHibbert No, but when I was training very hard, at sea level, for 3-4 months it would drop to 47 or so. Then I could bring back to 51.5

@IainHibbert btw- good question! My hct now is around 51-54, but that's because of genetics and I don't train hard anymore!

@Vaughters so you're just naturally "well endowed", so to speak. Good work.

@IainHibbert I guess, but getting back to 51.5 from 47 was not natural. Just to be clear.

@Vaughters I see. So arguably having a naturally high hct if everyone were clean would be advantageous, but a doping disadvantage?...

@IainHibbert Correct. High natural hct is great, if there is no o2 vector doping. However, with o2 vector doping, it is a disadvantage.

 

[thehog]

Full transcript of JV interview:

http://www.bicycling.com/garmin-insider/featured-stories/jonathan-vaughters-talks-doping-reform

 

[sniper]

@Vaughters JV, your hemocrit exemption of 52 for a naturally high level. Was it possible to fake a "natural" high level?

@IainHibbert No, but when I was training very hard, at sea level, for 3-4 months it would drop to 47 or so. Then I could bring back to 51.5

@IainHibbert btw- good question! My hct now is around 51-54, but that's because of genetics and I don't train hard anymore!

@Vaughters so you're just naturally "well endowed", so to speak. Good work.

@IainHibbert I guess, but getting back to 51.5 from 47 was not natural. Just to be clear.

@Vaughters I see. So arguably having a naturally high hct if everyone were clean would be advantageous, but a doping disadvantage?...

@IainHibbert Correct. High natural hct is great, if there is no o2 vector doping. However, with o2 vector doping, it is a disadvantage.

interesting.
Note that AC's performances in 2007-2010 seem to suggest otherwise, unless of course AC's naturally high hematocrit value is BS.
(Or he actually raced clean in those years, but I'm not considering that an option.)

 

[mb2612]

interesting.
Note that AC's performances in 2007-2010 seem to suggest otherwise, unless of course AC's naturally high hematocrit value is BS.
(Or he actually raced clean in those years, but I'm not considering that an option.)

Or, he just did what Vaughters did. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to lower your Hct