JV talks, sort of

[Tyler'sTwin]

It did seem to be pointing the finger fairly and squarely at Sky and Garmin.

Where is the old Prentice email again?

Are you referring to Prentice Steffen, who lost his job @ USPS, because he refused to dope riders in 19-freakin-96? That Prentice Steffen?

 

[pmcg76]

Hey JV!

Seems Ashenden don't believe your BS about clean cycling



and this



'A new guise' What a few in here have always believed. It aint clean or cleaner!

This BS that Sassi spouted was microdoping, nothing to do with clean cycling. Just keeping it under or to what were the levels of some of the most talented riders ever, ie LeMond.

So teams are probably trying to find the riders who respond best to doping to that line and achieving. The likes of Hesjedal, Wiggins, Froome, Talansky etc.

You guys are so obsessed with Garmin and SKY, you missed the most obvious new age team of all: Saxo Bank!!

 

[Benotti69]

You guys are so obsessed with Garmin and SKY, you missed the most obvious new age team of all: Saxo Bank!!

No. When was the last time Saxo had PR BS about clean riding! Did Riis produce a tome about transparency?

Not obsessed with Garmin/Sky.

Just tired of them trying hard to make people believe they are clean because they say so. It is similar to people believing the '500tests' myth.

 

[pmcg76]

No. When was the last time Saxo had PR BS about clean riding! Did Riis produce a tome about transparency?

Not obsessed with Garmin/Sky.

Just tired of them trying hard to make people believe they are clean because they say so. It is similar to people believing the '500tests' myth.

Were Saxo Bank not one of the first teams to introduce internal testing in an effort to show their cleanliness?

 

[Netserk]

Were Saxo Bank not one of the first teams to introduce internal testing in an effort to show their cleanliness?

That was a pure PR stunt after the whole Basso positive and the admission from Riis. Since then there hasn't really been much about Riis cycling as a clean team.

 

[thehog]

That was a pure PR stunt after the whole Basso positive and the admission from Riis. Since then there hasn't really been much about Riis cycling as a clean team.

Two things.

One; Riis made a pact with Ivan that he went down he'd also would confess.

Two; internal testing is just that - internal. There is no obligation to report any data to the public/UCI or anyone. In additional it's a stationary program. The tester only tests when the riders are in a certain town on a given day. The riders know when internal testing is coming up. In fact having an internal testing program saves the team paying Ferrari/Fuentes etc. to do the same.

 

[Netserk]

Two things.

One; Riis made a pact with Ivan that he went down he'd also would confess.

Two; internal testing is just that - internal. There is no obligation to report any data to the public/UCI or anyone. In additional it's a stationary program. The tester only tests when the riders are in a certain town on a given day. The riders know when internal testing is coming up. In fact having an internal testing program saves the team paying Ferrari/Fuentes etc. to do the same.

Agree with the second part, but regarding the first, wasn't Riis' confession mostly a product of all the other Telekom confessions? Haven't heard about that pact before.

 

[timbat]

What seems so suprising is JV outed Danielson, Van de Velde and Zabriskie .... yet where is there rebuttal, denial etc ?

They seem so quiet .....

 

[Kender]

What seems so suprising is JV outed Danielson, Van de Velde and Zabriskie .... yet where is there rebuttal, denial etc ?

They seem so quiet .....

because to deny or rebut the statements would make them liars. better to just say nothing and wait for the USADA report to get leaked, or for their sanctions to be announced

 

[sniper]

Agree with the second part, but regarding the first, wasn't Riis' confession mostly a product of all the other Telekom confessions? Haven't heard about that pact before.

exactly. including soigneurs, Riis was only the fifth or sixth T-mobiler to confess. By then he had no option but to confess, also in light of the Mr. 60% rumors. He had two options: to confess or to look like an incredulous fool.

 

[sniper]

Are you referring to Prentice Steffen, who lost his job @ USPS, because he refused to dope riders in 19-freakin-96? That Prentice Steffen?

you fully justify Prentice's "perception is reality" credo.

 

[Viking]

Here's a good piece from: the guardian

Armstrong did not disguise his contempt. "Poor Jonathan and his stupid little French team," he spat. "What the **** are you like? If you had stayed with me, this would have been taken care of but now you are not going to finish the Tour de France because of a wasp sting."

I've heard/read that particular story many times over the past few years, but this is the first time that it mentioned that Armstrong was the rider taunting JV. Previous versions referred to the rider as unnamed but famous.

I find that to be a positive change.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

you fully justify Prentice's "perception is reality" credo.

The reality is that Prentice lost his job for refusing to dope riders @ the peak of the EPO-era.

The reality is that Prentice spoke out against USPS during LA's reign.

The reality is that Prentice spoke out about subsequent threats made by LA and called him an unpleasant doper.

The reality is that Prentice called out the UCI and the sport in the mid-00's for a lack of willingness to change the doping culture.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I am removing numerous of my posts as I consider them very ill-informed andI fee that they are adding little to the discussion.

 

[jazijosukaktxuxi]

The problem with Jonathan Vaughters and Garmin Sharp is that the entire team are a bunch of dopers. Only a fool would believe that Garmin Sharp are clean. This proclamation of the so called "CLEAN TEAM IMAGE" is a load of hogwash. It is a futile attempt to try to convince naive fools that cycling is moving forward. When in fact it is as dirty now as it has ever been. The "CLEAN TEAM IMAGE" is nothing other than a declaration by a bunch of lying cheating frauds ( drug takers ) in order to dupe cycling fans into believing that they are clean. While in reality it amounts to nothing other than an extension of the OMERTA which is very much alive and thriving within the professional peloton.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

<snipped for brevity >

There are many things that I am curious about, and I've decided to post a shed-load of questions, and I expect that others may add to them (+ I might think of a few more!). I appreciate that you may not (or may not yet) be happy answering all, or may not be able to for one reason or another.

I admit, did not read all your questions - but the ones I did read have already been answered by JV over the years.

Here are some links for you to read that should answer most - I guess you could trim your questions to him after, because I doubt he would come on here to repeat what he already said, but maybe answer something that he had not covered.

The full transcript of his interview with Bicyclings Joe Lindsay last month.
His NYT confession.
A very good no hold barred interview with blogger Bikezilla - from June 2011

 

[D-Queued]

I admit, did not read all your questions - but the ones I did read have already been answered by JV over the years.

Here are some links for you to read that should answer most - I guess you could trim your questions to him after, because I doubt he would come on here to repeat what he already said, but maybe answer something that he had not covered.

The full transcript of his interview with Bicyclings Joe Lindsay last month.
His NYT confession.
A very good no hold barred interview with blogger Bikezilla - from June 2011

I did read all the questions, and all are good questions.

It is unlikely, however, that JV can actually answer a number of these - at least not publicly.

Your opening remarks suggest that you are more motivated in a dialog than necessarily a grilling.

Thus, there are two alternatives:
1. Pose all the hard questions that we/you would like to have answered
2. Try and engage in a dialog

If the latter is the goal, then a re-phrasing or re-consideration of the questions might be in order.

Moreover, consistent with Dr. M's suggestion, it would be best to try and provide 'new' questions. Sorry if all that sounds like extra homework, though.

Based upon the other JV thread, that may elicit a chorus of complaint from many that want JV to expose everything he knows or did, however.

My 2 cents worth is that JV may well be willing to have more of a dialog, but it will require some degree of self-restraint from us anonymous posters to encourage that.

Dave.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I admit, did not read all your questions - but the ones I did read have already been answered by JV over the years.

Here are some links for you to read that should answer most - I guess you could trim your questions to him after, because I doubt he would come on here to repeat what he already said, but maybe answer something that he had not covered.

The full transcript of his interview with Bicyclings Joe Lindsay last month.
His NYT confession.
A very good no hold barred interview with blogger Bikezilla - from June 2011

They are all fair questions and it is useful to summarise the questions that many people have about Vaughters and Garmin.

It's also useful to synthesize the various answers in one place. Which if Vaughters' ever responds we'll have.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I did read all the questions, and all are good questions.

It is unlikely, however, that JV can actually answer a number of these - at least not publicly.

Your opening remarks suggest that you are more motivated in a dialog than necessarily a grilling.

Thus, there are two alternatives:
1. Pose all the hard questions that we/you would like to have answered
2. Try and engage in a dialog

If the latter is the goal, then a re-phrasing or re-consideration of the questions might be in order.

Moreover, consistent with Dr. M's suggestion, it would be best to try and provide 'new' questions. Sorry if all that sounds like extra homework, though.

Based upon the other JV thread, that may elicit a chorus of complaint from many that want JV to expose everything he knows or did, however.

My 2 cents worth is that JV may well be willing to have more of a dialog, but it will require some degree of self-restraint from us anonymous posters to encourage that.

Dave.

Just to be clear - I have no problem with the questions - just that many have already been answered.

I could almost attempt to answer many myself - but it is only fair on both parties (the OP & JV) that I link to articles rather than offer my own take on things.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Could you be anymore pompous and condescending?

They are all fair questions and it is useful to summarise the questions that many people have about Vaughters and Garmin.

It's also useful to synthesize the various answers in one place. Which if Vaughters' ever responds we'll have.

To you - always.

 

[D-Queued]

Just to be clear - I have no problem with the questions - just that many have already been answered.

I could almost attempt to answer many myself - but it is only fair on both parties (the OP & JV) that I link to articles rather than offer my own take on things.

Understood, and I thought the links were very helpful



Dave.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

To you - always.

One way of trying covering up your inadequacies I suppose.

I have no idea why this was considered condescending.

A new poster comes along with a post that they have obviously given a lot of thought to and instead of being welcomed they get a sneery reply by someone who couldn't be bothered to read the whole post, (it is condescending to reply to a post without having bothered to read it all fully) and then ****es on their parade telling them how they should post. If someone wants to post a whole series of questions then why not - it is up to Vaughters as to whether he replies to them - he is pretty good at picking and choosing what he chooses to answer in the few dealings I've seen with him.

Anyway, back to the topic in hand.

 

[BroDeal]

Within two years JV will be gone from cycling and on to a cushy corporate gig. Cycling will be worse off because of it. His departure will also show that a method based on altruists working in secret has no staying power.

 

[kielbasa]

Nicely trolled and countered. Sounds like you've been "lurking" for a while.

 

[sniper]

JV's BS barometer rises sky-high.
Credits to gooner for the link.

“I know what kind of convictions Bradley has and, even though he and I have obviously had pretty nasty and bitter disagreements and disputes, I have never felt that his convictions regarding anti-doping have ever wavered,” said Vaughters yesterday.

“When I look purely objectively at the climbing speeds of Christopher Froome and Bradley Wiggins in the Tour de France, mathematically they are totally in line with a natural performance. Obviously a natural performance of immensely talented athletes, not something that is possible for everybody but it is not something out of line with human physiology.

"To me Sky just executed quite well in this year's Tour de France and hats off to them.

“Just going through the stats, look at 2003 and 2004 and a lot of Grand Tours [from then] and the climbing speeds are not necessarily in line with something natural. It has become more open, more transparent and there is more pressure from the media and anti-doping authorities and that is pushing the sport in the right direction.

"I feel like the best riders, on the best teams with the best training and best tactics are winning the biggest races and winning them clean and that is happening consistently.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ission-to-look-into-cyclists-doping-past.html