JV talks, sort of

[El Pistolero]

No idea. He blood doped, he got suspended. Kind of all i care about.

If you have no idea than how do you know he was suspended? And if you do know who he is, why don't you tell us? I thought you were against omerta.

edit: Never mind, I see you're talking about Hamilton. Which begs the question, why wouldn't you care if some Fuentes clients remain unpunished?

 

[sniper]

No idea. He blood doped, he got suspended. Kind of all i care about.

that's unfair, cuz many of your colleagues (including some employees) blood doped but never got suspended.

you did make a fair point earlier by suggesting that tyler's and Rock Racing's behavior (going after you and Cancellara for calling them out) has something omertà-ish to it.

 

[JV1973]

If you have no idea than how do you know he was suspended? And if you do know who he is, why don't you tell us? I thought you were against omerta.

Eh? Either this is a really good joke and I'm a bit dumb, or... well, that's probably it.

But, yeah, ummm... I'm pretty sure TD was suspended. I just don't know his code name. Nor do I care.

 

[El Pistolero]

Eh? Either this is a really good joke and I'm a bit dumb, or... well, that's probably it.

But, yeah, ummm... I'm pretty sure TD was suspended. I just don't know his code name. Nor do I care.

I misunderstood you. But clasicomano Luigi is being linked to Cancellara. Which the clinic finds a lot more interesting than Thomas Dekker.

Tyler Hamilton talked about a story that took place during the Tour of California 2008. He called a rider that spoke out against him "Luigi", his code name in the Fuentes case. TD didn't ride ToC that year if my sources are correct(CQranking).

Ps: perhaps you should ask TD his code name, at least we can eliminate one rider of the list already then. He's been punished already.

 

[JV1973]

that's unfair, cuz many of your colleagues (including some employees) blood doped but never got suspended.

you did make a fair point earlier by suggesting that tyler's and Rock Racing's behavior (going after you and Cancellara for calling them out) has something omertà-ish to it.

You're assuming what my tone is. I'm not saying "and damn right! he got suspended! justice!!"

I'm just saying TD got suspended. he blood doped. those are facts I care about. His code name, I do not care about.

This stuff is interesting to you guys. I get that.

Anyhow, maybe it's just my way of writing. I'm not precise, nor do I care to be. I'm not an engineer or an IT guy. I'm more vision than precision. If you left precision to me, you'd have a lot of broken stuff.

 

[sniper]

You're assuming what my tone is. I'm not saying "and damn right! he got suspended! justice!!"

I'm just saying TD got suspended. he blood doped. those are facts I care about. His code name, I do not care about.

This stuff is interesting to you guys. I get that.

Anyhow, maybe it's just my way of writing. I'm not precise, nor do I care to be. I'm not an engineer or an IT guy. I'm more vision than precision. If you left precision to me, you'd have a lot of broken stuff.

sorry my bad, i thought your comment related to Hamilton.

 

[BroDeal]

No idea. He blood doped, he got suspended. Kind of all i care about.

You should care because cycling has a severe trust problem. Having a prominent rider like Cancellara publicly ostracizing riders who were clients of Dr. Fuentes, some of whom like Sevilla and Botero were never formally sanctioned, when he himself was a client smells very bad. Aside from being way up there on the d-bag scale, it makes people question everything pro cyclists say. This is one of those things that drops fans' jaws because it is hard to imagine anyone being that big of an a-hole. It is not an isolated incident. These sorts of perplexing statements seem to be made all the time.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

While I see your point and agree with you in concept, I just have not seen many examples of this. Darren Baker? Yes. Absolutely. He would have finished top 10 in the TdF.....

Was Scott Mercier at that level as well?

Have you listened to this one?
http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/or...12/09/bald-faced_truth_with_john_can_380.html
Kind of outdated at this point, but good to hear from some of the lost riders from the 90's.

 

[V3R1T4S]

that's unfair, cuz many of your colleagues (including some employees) blood doped but never got suspended.

you did make a fair point earlier by suggesting that tyler's and Rock Racing's behavior (going after you and Cancellara for calling them out) has something omertà-ish to it.

Yep, but there is also something omertà-ish about making the comment in the first place. Suppose I am a rider and I have heard rumors about JV's doping and then I hear him publicly put down another doper/rider on race radio. That sends a mixed message, if anything. Dog eat dog? At the very least, the base case is for everyone to just clam up more for fear of being mis-represented and/or attacked. This is what happens when people take cheap-shots. Just crack open any intro Psychology textbook and start reading about groupthink.

It's also just a giant time-suck. Some of the things that are said are indeed funny precisely because they p*ss off people who don't have a sense of humor. At the same time, if that single comment about Hamilton wasn't made, it wouldn't have become a story and then having to be explained about and apologized for years later; if some emails were actually read instead of impulsively dismissed, perhaps the whole TL thing would have never happened. I think everyone can agree that that was a giant cluster that did not help anybody in any way. Fearless Greg Lemond mentioned the coincidence of stories like this popping up - is it coincidence though or a pattern that could easily be broken by thinking over things for a microsecond before typing or saying? This is what I was getting at with my last post.

I think JV understands these things and would do things differently now. Again, I only mention these things as constructive criticism because I think now if ever is the time for something to potentially - if only minutely - change a century of cycling culture.

 

[V3R1T4S]

This is one of those things that drops fans' jaws because it is hard to imagine anyone being that big of an a-hole. It is not an isolated incident. These sorts of perplexing statements seem to be made all the time.

Precisely what I am trying to get at. Unfortunately everyone in pro cycling - whether "good" or "bad" - talks in the same speak. While it doesn't seem such a big deal to anyone in the community, when you get back into the real world and looking at statements how the majority of people (i.e. fans and sponsors) see them, most of the statements are perplexing non sequiturs at best, and malice driven lies at worst.

 

[hrotha]

If Dekker was Clasicómano Luigi, he could put all this to rest and an innocent man wouldn't be unfairly questioned by the media and the public. On the other hand, if he was Clasicómano, that'd mean he was working with Fuentes at 18/19, which most people would find pretty outrageous. Surely there should be enough of an incentive for Dekker to clear things up?

 

[JV1973]

You should care because cycling has a severe trust problem. Having a prominent rider like Cancellara publicly ostracizing riders who were clients of Dr. Fuentes, some of whom like Sevilla and Botero were never formally sanctioned, when he himself was a client smells very bad. Aside from being way up there on the d-bag scale, it makes people question everything pro cyclists say. This is one of those things that drops fans' jaws because it is hard to imagine anyone being that big of an a-hole. It is not an isolated incident. These sorts of perplexing statements seem to be made all the time.

I was speaking about Dekker, not Hamilton. Sorry I did not make that more clear.

 

[JV1973]

If Dekker was Clasicómano Luigi, he could put all this to rest and an innocent man wouldn't be unfairly questioned by the media and the public. On the other hand, if he was Clasicómano, that'd mean he was working with Fuentes at 18/19, which most people would find pretty outrageous. Surely there should be enough of an incentive for Dekker to clear things up?

You'd have to ask Dutch ADA, they would know.

 

[JV1973]

Yep, but there is also something omertà-ish about making the comment in the first place. Suppose I am a rider and I have heard rumors about JV's doping and then I hear him publicly put down another doper/rider on race radio. That sends a mixed message, if anything. Dog eat dog? At the very least, the base case is for everyone to just clam up more for fear of being mis-represented and/or attacked. This is what happens when people take cheap-shots. Just crack open any intro Psychology textbook and start reading about groupthink.

It's also just a giant time-suck. Some of the things that are said are indeed funny precisely because they p*ss off people who don't have a sense of humor. At the same time, if that single comment about Hamilton wasn't made, it wouldn't have become a story and then having to be explained about and apologized for years later; if some emails were actually read instead of impulsively dismissed, perhaps the whole TL thing would have never happened. I think everyone can agree that that was a giant cluster that did not help anybody in any way. Fearless Greg Lemond mentioned the coincidence of stories like this popping up - is it coincidence though or a pattern that could easily be broken by thinking over things for a microsecond before typing or saying? This is what I was getting at with my last post.

I think JV understands these things and would do things differently now. Again, I only mention these things as constructive criticism because I think now if ever is the time for something to potentially - if only minutely - change a century of cycling culture.

Hold on. Please try to understand, I am being asked a million questions by random anonymous people on the board. I try to get to most. But occasionally my shorthanded answers get misunderstood. And then I get put on the fry pan for making a statement about Hamilton when I meant Dekker. Would it be possible for you guys to stop analyzing every last word? I am in an MBA program, running a team, raising a child, and trying to change a sport. It's not a short day.

So, apologies if some things get misinterpreted. I do my best.

Also, has anyone ever thought of how Trent Lowe behaved in order to get me to the point I just stopped responding? I respond here a lot. I'm not a hard guy to find. So, why in the hell would I just give up on a rider like that? Think about that.

I'm not going to get in to a tit for tat with Trent Lowe. He's a good guy. But just think about what I said above. I don't regret how the situation unfolded. Did it make me look like an ashore? Sure. But that is better than having a guy sent to Del Moral and never having it discovered. I'm fine with being the bad guy, if the result is better, as a whole, in the long term.

If that's my fingerprint. then damn, I am proud of my fingerprint and would like it to be even bigger.

None of you have ever managed 30 high profile athletes before. It isn't always pretty. And there are two sides to every story.

As with the rest of life, criticizing management is easy. Actually doing a better job yourself? Not so easy.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You'd have to ask Dutch ADA, they would know.

I have Herman Ram on speed dial you must know.

And that was sarcasm

Dekker is neither of the classicos. One of the most hypocritical ones of the [former] peloton is though. What a farce he was in 2004/2005. He could have won the Tour if he wanted.

Oops, forgot the SCA stuff.

 

[JV1973]

Hold on. Please try to understand, I am being asked a million questions by random anonymous people on the board. I try to get to most. But occasionally my shorthanded answers get misunderstood. And then I get put on the fry pan for making a statement about Hamilton when I meant Dekker. Would it be possible for you guys to stop analyzing every last word? I am in an MBA program, running a team, raising a child, and trying to change a sport. It's not a short day.

So, apologies if some things get misinterpreted. I do my best.

Also, has anyone ever thought of how Trent Lowe behaved in order to get me to the point I just stopped responding? I respond here a lot. I'm not a hard guy to find. So, why in the hell would I just give up on a rider like that? Think about that.

I'm not going to get in to a tit for tat with Trent Lowe. He's a good guy. But just think about what I said above. I don't regret how the situation unfolded. Did it make me look like an ashore? Sure. But that is better than having a guy sent to Del Moral and never having it discovered. I'm fine with being the bad guy, if the result is better, as a whole, in the long term.

If that's my fingerprint. then damn, I am proud of my fingerprint and would like it to be even bigger.

None of you have ever managed 30 high profile athletes before. It isn't always pretty. And there are two sides to every story.

As with the rest of life, criticizing management is easy. Actually doing a better job yourself? Not so easy.

One last thing, to clarify, because God knows i will be held to task for this:

I don't think I handled the Trent situation well. I accept that. I'm just presenting a few questions about how there may be another side to how it got there. And I'm also presenting the fact that I would prefer that the del moral situation was given light, publicly, than to have it be something that got hidden away.

Just to clarify.

 

[JV1973]

I have Herman Ram on speed dial you must know.

And that was sarcasm

Dekker is neither of the classicos. One of the most hypocritical ones of the [former] peloton is though. What a farce he was in 2005. He could have won the Tour if he wanted.

Oops, forgot the SCA stuff.

Then you know more than I do. Herman is a very good guy. Happy that we worked with him.

 

[JV1973]

sorry my bad, i thought your comment related to Hamilton.

No stress.

 

[hrotha]

You'd have to ask Dutch ADA, they would know.

Yeah, but Dekker would know too. It just seems silly to me that there's all this speculation out there when one of the people involved could easily put it all to rest by opening his mouth, especially when that person has already admitted to his wrongdoings and could therefore be expected to show a bit of transparency. Particularly since he rides for your team.

I just don't see the point in not clearing things up when doing so is within your capabilities. I'm talking about Dekker here, not about you - but you could do what journalists apparently aren't doing, for the good of the sport.

All this secrecy even from those we'd like to see as the good guys just makes fans more suspicious. You say the whole Puerto affair is not your problem, but inasmuch as it affects one of your riders, I disagree.

 

[jfromm]

Tuft

All the discussion about Lowe made me think about the bonus situation with Svein Tuft that arose at the same time. Can't recall ever seeing anything about the resolution of that issue. Was some contradictory stuff going around at the time. He was a victim of the Cervelo merger. He wasn't. He had permission to go to the Pegasus camp. He didn't. Can you shed any light on what actually transpired? Thanks.

 

[JV1973]

Yeah, but Dekker would know too. It just seems silly to me that there's all this speculation out there when one of the people involved could easily put it all to rest by opening his mouth, especially when that person has already admitted to his wrongdoings and could therefore be expected to show a bit of transparency. Particularly since he rides for your team.

I just don't see the point in not clearing things up when doing so is within your capabilities. I'm talking about Dekker here, not about you - but you could do what journalists apparently aren't doing, for the good of the sport.

All this secrecy even from those we'd like to see as the good guys just makes fans more suspicious. You say the whole Puerto affair is not your problem, but inasmuch as it affects one of your riders, I disagree.

Ok, let me say this a different way: I cannot comment on this publicly, as there is an ongoing investigation. Thomas cannot comment either. Not even to me, and I do not know what his code name was. I can only confirm to you that I've known Thomas blood doped since first viewing his blood profile in 2007. And that he admitted this to me in an open and honest way. And that he has been open and honest to Dutch ADA, to their satisfaction.

 

[V3R1T4S]

One last thing, to clarify, because God knows i will be held to task for this:

I don't think I handled the Trent situation well. I accept that. I'm just presenting a few questions about how there may be another side to how it got there. And I'm also presenting the fact that I would prefer that the del moral situation was given light, publicly, than to have it be something that got hidden away.

Just to clarify.

Thanks for your response and you brought up some fair points. I agree I am much happier in too much being said than not enough. Text is hard to decipher (I hate emoticons ), but any perceived criticism was purely constructive. Not saying anyone would have done better - I for one would have probably done exactly the same in the Trent Lowe situation. Yes, I think getting the del Moral thing out was essential, regardless.

I know you are busy and what you do here is a service that many are grateful for. Thanks.

 

[hrotha]

Ok, let me say this a different way: I cannot comment on this publicly, as there is an ongoing investigation. Thomas cannot comment either. Not even to me, and I do not know what his code name was. I can only confirm to you that I've known Thomas blood doped since first viewing his blood profile in 2007. And that he admitted this to me in an open and honest way. And that he has been open and honest to Dutch ADA, to their satisfaction.

OK, that changes everything. See, it wasn't that hard, was it? You could have said that from the start.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Then you know more than I do. Herman is a very good guy. Happy that we worked with him.

Mister Ram knows what he is talking about, for sure.

I do admire his patience, pfff, and he has had that. A lot of Dutch 'heroes' going down in the next year, and he must bring the message. Our own Travis.

 

[JV1973]

All the discussion about Lowe made me think about the bonus situation with Svein Tuft that arose at the same time. Can't recall ever seeing anything about the resolution of that issue. Was some contradictory stuff going around at the time. He was a victim of the Cervelo merger. He wasn't. He had permission to go to the Pegasus camp. He didn't. Can you shed any light on what actually transpired? Thanks.

Sure. Svein was paid the full bonus. But i did make it very difficult for him because I was not happy about the Pegasus camp situation, same as Lowe. There were also some other factors that i won't get into, but to simplify it: I will never deal with the agent Svein had hired ever again, no matter who he represents.....However, once Svein just contacted me himself, he was paid, in full, mainly because, while I felt I was in the legal right, and was very upset, Svein had done an honorable job for my team and did, from a non-legal perspective deserve the bonus money.