JV talks, sort of

[Catwhoorg]

Congrats to Dan Martin for todays win (and into the overall lead).

Just shows the Wigans of the cycling world can compete, at least sometimes, with Man U.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Or as JV has said they know how to circumvent the BP.

I am of the opinion UCI do not pursue BP unless they have a reason.

What that reason may be is anyone's guess, UCI member needs a new holiday home in an the bahamas?

+1. IMHO, they've got plenty of positive results to choose from. Like Armstrong's 'comeback' samples, nothing gets pursued.

 

[zigmeister]

So JV, why is Rasmussen coming back to Garmin?

Wouldn't you agree that OOC whereabouts is almost a certainty for doping?

How many people have had a good excuse ever for not giving their whereabouts that we can assume they are clean and clear?

And now the fact that recent Dutch riders said some of them haven't been tested OOC for upwards of 6-8 months? The passport is useless without testing during and out of competition IMO.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

So JV, why is Rasmussen coming back to Garmin?

Wouldn't you agree that OOC whereabouts is almost a certainty for doping?

You statement (not so cleverly disguised as a question) shows you have absolutely NO clue about the person, Alex Rassmussen.....

 

[Granville57]

You statement (not so cleverly disguised as a question) shows you have absolutely NO clue...

You could've stopped right there.

 

[Athame]

I take much umbrage, sir, at being labeled dainty.

__________________ Not throwing stones here,.... it's just that that's pretty funny.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

So JV, why is Rasmussen coming back to Garmin?

Wouldn't you agree that OOC whereabouts is almost a certainty for doping?

How many people have had a good excuse ever for not giving their whereabouts that we can assume they are clean and clear?

And now the fact that recent Dutch riders said some of them haven't been tested OOC for upwards of 6-8 months? The passport is useless without testing during and out of competition IMO.

Wow...just......wow.

 

[workingclasshero]

So JV, why is Rasmussen coming back to Garmin?

Wouldn't you agree that OOC whereabouts is almost a certainty for doping?

How many people have had a good excuse ever for not giving their whereabouts that we can assume they are clean and clear?

And now the fact that recent Dutch riders said some of them haven't been tested OOC for upwards of 6-8 months? The passport is useless without testing during and out of competition IMO.

kinell shut the door on your way out will ya

 

[Race Radio]

Wouldn't you agree that OOC whereabouts is almost a certainty for doping?
.

No.

Any more questions?

 

[blackcat]

+1. IMHO, they've got plenty of positive results to choose from. Like Armstrong's 'comeback' samples, nothing gets pursued.

BP is a policy you have when you dont have a policy.

tho'

i will concede, it can aid in ameliorating the most egregious of infractions. now, if you are MC or DM u might like to invoke Ricco at this point. I however, rather like Ricky Riccio, and I refuse to play that game.

 

[blackcat]

So JV, why is Rasmussen coming back to Garmin

ziggy what about zirbel?

 

[blackcat]

This post is not exactly a ringing endorsement for how clean the sport is now.

and we will never be able to prove the negative.

the IQ tests still trump and the evolution of science and gene doping, this is one I dream of Genie moment =/= in the bottle.

 

[blackcat]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. But, my point is not that racing hasn't cleaned up. I just don't think it will stick. People were scared of the biopass. If that fear subsides because of lack of execution, then people start to try and circumvent.

I think you've seen some very clean tracing the last few years. I stick by that statement (much to the anger of many here)....But, where I don't tow the party line, is that I think that it will be short lived if folks don't get their **** together.

I wrote, like, a whole blog on this, dude.

why dont we just channel all the resources to the top athletes, those who divide the spoils disproportionately. and make them dope within acceptable limits.


so the top few sprinters. cav, kittel, degenkolb

top 0ne-day guys, sagan, boonen, cancellara, gilbert


top 20 GT guys.

leave the rest of the peloton to run an Armstrong-Ferrari-USPS program.

if the winners, and the Alpha Patron(s) of the peloton have to do "less" to get by and still win, there will be a reverse peer influence. can you imagine armstrong allow iban mayo to do his artificial hemoglobin??? 'course not. insteads, he gets the UCI to fit up IM (even if they had the assay or contravention on the MSGC test) and Landis.

The peloton, would (p'raps, just a thought bubble) run this inverted influence to dope within parameters. WHICH, I think, has been any success with the BP, is this.

So screw with the IQ tests. Focus ALL resources on this top 25 athletes who garner all wins and rewards. Open the sport up to more possibility and not just one big mutha-far-king barrier to entry.

doping is allowed if it does not show up. these were the norms that prevailed in the peloton. so work with this sociological phenomenon, but invert it. doping within acceptable limits, but the screws are turned on the UCI 25 (yep that is my attempt at droll rhetoric) and then they enforce a new norm.

gimme a break, its a fricken thought bubble.

let me find a gif on google

i changed colour in this gif

 

[Big Doopie]

I think that the most interesting element of the story was that the riders were all complaining that the tests weren't frequent enough.

Very few riders actually want to dope. What they want is to know that they are not going to be cheated out of wins or even out of their job. If they feel that the testing is frequent enough, thorough enough, and the punishment severe enough to act as a deterrent, then they are less likely to dope, there's no arms race.

Jv - if I remember correctly - has always called for the testing to be up to snuff.

My impression of the latest story about the infrequency of ooc testing is that the riders were all complaining about it, they want to feel safe, that riding clean is being protected. They know full well that it just takes a few riders to begin to feel that they can scam the system again to start an avalanche...

My 2 cents anyway.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

why dont we just channel all the resources to the top athletes, those who divide the spoils disproportionately.

My clean cycling manifesto (work in progress) does something like this.

 

[blackcat]

I proposed this to jonny vee years back. I assume it was in here.

I also proposed the 24hour chaperones during GTs (just for this top dogs) to prevent recovery doping and transfusions.

jonny was against this ayn rand type of tyrannical control.

i am not sure the definition i read in the last few days of his version of chaperones. but if you read my posts with him a few years back, he was stridently against this policy.

simple. just a policy for no mrs rumsas, motoman, rob hayles or max sciandri or cioni or whovever sky r using. whatever new myocera boost that is not showing up.

but i said it, 3, 4? years back. with jonny.


i really think all the uci anti doping monies are wasted. they are just a pr scam. there are much simpler ways to have a better operation. to start, a cogent and coherent manifesto on why anti-doping. I dont like the soccer mom pr. its risible.

yesalis, hoberman, savulescu, mazanov, hardie

 

[blackcat]

Jv - if I remember correctly - has always called for the testing to be up to snuff.

film or smelling salts.

 

[Parrot23]

Nice deafening silence here today by the dirty peloton crowd about Garmin's (Dan Martin's) performance yesterday at Catalunya.

Says a lot. Deeds speak louder than words. Facts are a very inconvenient thing. Words are a dime a dozen.

 

[blackcat]

Nice deafening silence here today by the dirty peloton crowd about Garmin's (Dan Martin's) performance yesterday at Catalunya.

Says a lot. Deeds speak louder than words. Facts are a very inconvenient thing. Words are a dime a dozen.

second on GC at the Vuelta Catalunya 3 or 4 years back.

if he is on complementary medicines or not, does not affect me.

/sarcasm.

cant prove a negative, not that is of any concern.

 

[Ferminal]

Nice deafening silence here today by the dirty peloton crowd about Garmin's (Dan Martin's) performance yesterday at Catalunya.

Says a lot. Deeds speak louder than words. Facts are a very inconvenient thing. Words are a dime a dozen.

So it would be better if someone was accusing him of doping?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So it would be better if someone was accusing him of doping?

Apparently so. I'm waiting for Martin to win the entire race and then the next 2 after that before I start raising my eyebrows. One stage? Good grief.

 

[Galic Ho]

Nice deafening silence here today by the dirty peloton crowd about Garmin's (Dan Martin's) performance yesterday at Catalunya.

Says a lot. Deeds speak louder than words. Facts are a very inconvenient thing. Words are a dime a dozen.

To be fair I have been saying since beginning of last year Dan Martin IMO is a true natural talent. Sure I haven't been watching Catalunya, but from what I have read he won from a breakaway. Let's be honest...cleaner guys have to do that. They can't stick in the bunch and power away from everyone. Now that doesn't mean a dirty rider can't get in a breakaway. Now take a look at who finished 2nd through to 6th. Rodriquez, Quintana, van den Broeck and Gesink followed by Wiggins. Exclude Wiggins from that group and you have climbing pedigree. Specialists. He beat them FROM A BREAKAWAY. When he beats them from the peloton then the alarm bells will go off.

Just a good tactic mixed with good form man. Nothing more. He's been suggesting he'd do this for a long time. But the tactics are the tell. From a breakaway. Only way he could do this. Doesn't scream dirty at all. This is exactly what I expected from him for a win like this. They tried the follow the peloton approach last season. It never worked. Always got thumped. Everything about this looks normal to me regarding Dan Martin.

Genetic talent on BOTH sides of his family. Mum and dad. His cousin just has dad. Through his dad Dan gets a former pro rider and his mum's side he gets the same genetic disposition as his uncle did via his maternal grandparents. Nicholas Roche just gets this later side. Ergo Dan is the better bet.

 

[blackcat]

very arbitrary (and arbitrary is kind'a' an absolute so no qualifier)

arbitrary determinant of talent

charles yesalis

 

[Galic Ho]

very arbitrary (and arbitrary is kind'a' an absolute so no qualifier)

arbitrary determinant of talent

charles yesalis

I read more on the stage and yeah. Joke. Seriously? Dan Martin was clearly doping right!

Take for starters he had Ryder Hesjedal working for him all day. The break was losing big time to Movistar pulling for Valverde and then what happens when the break is down to 2 minutes and 30km to go? Valverde and Capecchi crash. Peloton does the respectful thing, waits and when he doesn't return they put the hurt down because the time gap has gone to over 4 minutes.

They caught every other rider other than Martin. Without that crash there would be nothing to talk about. Dan Martin would have been swamped by the peloton. He'd have finished a 1:30-2:00 down if there was no waiting or crash Good form, a good helpful team mate and some bad luck for the chasing peloton. Nothing that screams doping about this at all. He won because he got a buffer due to a crash in the chasing group. Pretty simple stuff

Genetics are arbitrary qualifiers. They don't mean a lot. But would you gamble against them? Odds are there is more than enough talent to go pro. Take Steffi Graf and Andre Agassi. Their kids ever get a tennis racquet in their hands, they will be a force to be reckoned with. It's whether the latent talent gets nurtured, that is the determinant. Not arbitrary genetic probabilities on dominant and recessive gene sequences. They are givens, they are definitely there. To what degree is another matter.

 

[blackcat]

no.

my response was to the "natural talent" appellation.


thought we were all in agreement, this is virtually impossible to discern.