JV talks, sort of

[Froome19]

Your point is quite reasonable. Why did WADA and UCI target Santa heavily, and Froome is not as targeted? Why did all riders applaud Santa getting caught and don't say a word about Froome producing same power?

Totally valid.

I don't have a great explanation for you.

but I'll try:

Santa had a long career in Italian amateurs with good results in shorter stage races and one day events. He's been around for a while. A very coached and maximized talent. When this deviated from the well established mean, considerably, it raised eyebrows. Santa always had good days, he just never had good weeks.

Froome has less of a mean established.

Froome looks like a cat 2 on the bike, but he used to look like a cat 5. He's clearly not maximizing efficiency and hasn't been coached as such from a young age. But he's improving very fast, as he is finally addressing weak spots that wouldn't have been understood and isolated on a team like barloworld, as they would assume this would have occurred at a younger age.

He's always tested like a freak, but I think it was dismissed as anomalous, as he wasn't putting it into the road early on. remember, i tried to get him in 2011, i was just a few days too late, as I wasn't actually in Spain when the vuelta started and i didn't think so much would change in the first few days of vuelta (I was wrong!!!)

Also, he had big issues with parasites earlier in his career. Getting that under control changed him a lot. maybe they were like the spider that bit spiderman? kidding...

Anyhow, short answer is, i don't really know, but my gut says that it's ok and that he's real. But he's the only one who really knows.

Indeed JV

I came up with similar conclusions a while back here:

http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1314.0

Some quotes by Corti raving over him, similarly quotes by Julich and a quote from Julich which sums it up:

Beyond that it was all very basic stuff last year; Chris did not know how to race. I needed to teach him how to get the watts out at the right time. To do that we tried to hold him back in the first few stages in the Vuelta last year, get him to race steadily and this year we basically used the same tactic at Romandie, the Dauphine and the Tour”

Indeed his results in his 2007 season spoke volumes for his capabilities, yet when he turned pro it was obvious he could not continue to match those riders he had previously beaten unless he could improve his technical skills. Even if people do not believe his claim of having Bilharzia ,and I am in very little doubt myself at to its validity, it would still be safe to say that he was hindered by his lack of technical skills.

It is logical to assume that without those hindrances Chris Froome would have burst onto the scene much earlier than when he in fact did.

Coupled with his Bilharzia he was very much inhibited in his first year at Sky, but gradually once he learnt the tricks of the trade he became the rider he is today.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Maybe the problem here is that JV can't say certain stuff because of the legal implications. I once asked him about a completely hypothetical rider called Adalberto Cantador and got a pretty straightforward answer - maybe it's time to ask him about a hypothetical Christian Vroomen and a hypothetical Team Skype.

May I make a suggestion - Team Sly?

 

[Granville57]

I need to step away for a bit. Wasting my time defending a guy i don't really even know that well on a team i don't really like.

let's see how he does tomorrow.

OK

1 Alessandro De Marchi (Ita) Cannondale Pro Cycling 4:28:09
2 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:00:24
3 Andrew Talansky (USA) Garmin-Sharp
4 Richie Porte (Aus) Sky Procycling

 

[IndianCyclist]

OK

1 Alessandro De Marchi (Ita) Cannondale Pro Cycling 4:28:09
2 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:00:24
3 Andrew Talansky (USA) Garmin-Sharp
4 Richie Porte (Aus) Sky Procycling

No, Talansky can match Riche Porte's speed which is what he did. Froome is a different matter. I never saw any "helper" looking back at the "leader" so many times.
I see three leaders for Garmin at the tour. Hesjesdal, Talansky and Martin. Who is going to ride for whom? How is JV going to manage leadership issues?

 

[Granville57]

No

No, what?

The topic of the linked discussion was referencing Froome.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Good to see no one questioning how the f.uck Talansky is suddenly able to come back to the Skyborgs while being dead meat the whole week.

Must be cycling fans.

Suisse looked believable though, always so when a Dutchie wins
The Great Bauke would fit in with JV.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

No, Talansky can match Riche Porte's speed which is what he did. Froome is a different matter. I never saw any "helper" looking back at the "leader" so many times.
I see three leaders for Garmin at the tour. Hesjesdal, Talansky and Martin. Who is going to ride for whom? How is JV going to manage leadership issues?

Jv will use inky pinky ponky method.

Talansky Ryder Martin

inky pinky ponky
Father Has A
Donkey Donkey Dies
Father Cries Inky
Pinky Ponky !!!!

So Ryder will be the leader.

 

[hrotha]

Good to see no one questioning how the f.uck Talansky is suddenly able to come back to the Skyborgs while being dead meat the whole week.

Must be cycling fans.

Must be the fact that Talanksy doesn't have a long history of WTF performances that pretty much guarantee that anything he does will be viewed with cynicism. Froome does. Deservedly so.

 

[Froome19]

Good to see no one questioning how the f.uck Talansky is suddenly able to come back to the Skyborgs while being dead meat the whole week.

Must be cycling fans.

Suisse looked believable though, always so when a Dutchie wins
The Great Bauke would fit in with JV.

Ummm Talansky has been sick last week and has been slowly recovering. He could very well have challenged Porte for second place overall if he had been fully fit based on today's performance which wouldn't be surprising as he was the closest to Porte in PN. He was originally supposed to go in as leader but then went to helping Dennis after finishing in the gruppetto in the first couple of stages.

But you knew that didn't you?

 

[The Hitch]

Also Talansky was already a major talent in his youth considering he came 2nd to the guy who half the forum thinks will dominate climbing for the next decade, at the Tour de Lavenir.

And his ds is on here answering questions.

 

[pmcg76]

Good post, JV

Except it is full of factual mistakes which JV admitted to when it was pointed out to him. Firstly Froome did not start racing bikes in Kenya at 17, he started racing on the road in South Africa at that age which is a completely different thing altogether and he was mountain-biking before that.

JVs opinion is based purely on him hearing that Froome had some big numbers but then he said big numbers are not a guarantee of GT success and other factors are just as relevant.

Then he talked about Froome's weaknesses on the bike, but seriously how could any guy even turn pro if they had such big issues on a bike, especially a guy who was racing from age 17 and had performed in Italian amateur races. What are these faults that when corrected will propel someone from average to superstar???

 

[maltiv]

Good to see no one questioning how the f.uck Talansky is suddenly able to come back to the Skyborgs while being dead meat the whole week.

Must be cycling fans.

Indeed, one would think he has some sort of system in his body that's able to fight off diseases, making it possible to recover from illnesses within a couple of days.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Except it is full of factual mistakes which JV admitted to when it was pointed out to him. Firstly Froome did not start racing bikes in Kenya at 17, he started racing on the road in South Africa at that age which is a completely different thing altogether and he was mountain-biking before that.

JVs opinion is based purely on him hearing that Froome had some big numbers but then he said big numbers are not a guarantee of GT success and other factors are just as relevant.

Then he talked about Froome's weaknesses on the bike, but seriously how could any guy even turn pro if they had such big issues on a bike, especially a guy who was racing from age 17 and had performed in Italian amateur races. What are these faults that when corrected will propel someone from average to superstar???

That was my first thought also.
If JV/Garmin had hired Fromme, what would they do with him to develop his talent? Or what was he doing so wrong before 2011 Vuelta.

As for the numbers debate - well, my view is that almost all top riders will score well in 'the lab'. And even then that won't show where that potential can be utilized, ie stage racer, GT, classics rider.
For a GT, you throw them in and hope they float.

 

[JimmyFingers]

That was my first thought also.
If JV/Garmin had hired Fromme, what would they do with him to develop his talent? Or what was he doing so wrong before 2011 Vuelta.

As for the numbers debate - well, my view is that almost all top riders will score well in 'the lab'. And even then that won't show where that potential can be utilized, ie stage racer, GT, classics rider.
For a GT, you throw them in and hope they float.

JV did say that though: you take a chance on riders like that, roll the dice and see how they are on the road. Said he liked to take a chance on riders like that.

As for the first, anecdotaly much has been said about Froome's poor technical ability. Indeed Hog made a mockery of it in the Froome thread. You can't win races if you're falling off all the time. A simple coahing improvement would be to address that flaw.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

JV did say that though: you take a chance on riders like that, roll the dice and see how they are on the road. Said he liked to take a chance on riders like that.

As for the first, anecdotaly much has been said about Froome's poor technical ability. Indeed Hog made a mockery of it in the Froome thread. You can't win races if you're falling off all the time. A simple coahing improvement would be to address that flaw.

So they corrected his technical skills and his habit of falling off and then WOOF! he is numero uno material?

 

[JimmyFingers]

So they corrected his technical skills and his habit of falling off and then WOOF! he is numero uno material?

Come on, that's a simplistic representation, it was clearly more nuanced than that, but there were more admirers than just JV.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So they corrected his technical skills and his habit of falling off and then WOOF! he is numero uno material?

Yes, that appears to be what Jimmy is suggesting, it just required a
"simple coaching improvement" to address that flaw.

Obviously, silly Barloworld didn't use this simple method, nor indeed did it work at Sky for a year and a half, but it's simple, very.

 

[Netserk]

So before the Vuelta '11 he crashed on every MTF?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Strawmen syndrome, that is not what is being suggested at all, merely that is a plausible factor in his late development as an effective GC racer.

 

[Netserk]

But how could technical skills stop him from showing his amazing W/kg just once before that Vuelta?

 

[roundabout]

Also Talansky was already a major talent in his youth considering he came 2nd to the guy who half the forum thinks will dominate climbing for the next decade, at the Tour de Lavenir.

And his ds is on here answering questions.

Some people seem to think that Talansky's 2010 uptick in form is suspicious.

But that's for another thread.

He was ok, but not great yesterday so it was slightly surprising that he was easily best of the rest today.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Strawmen syndrome, that is not what is being suggested at all, merely that is a plausible factor in his late development as an effective GC racer.

Well, what are you suggesting?
Because it was you that introduced the strawman by saying
"You can't win races if you're falling off all the time. A simple coaching improvement would be to address that flaw.".

 

[Poursuivant]

Really surprised no one has mentioned Contador's "I am never very good this time of year" quote. All those allergies must just stop affecting the poor lad as soon as the calendar hits July.

 

[BYOP88]

A couple of days on a beach and he'll be good to go.

 

[Froome19]

JV sorry to take you back to Froome, but did you know that he had Bilharzia when you considered signing him before the Vuelta 2011?