JV talks, sort of

[thehog]

You are stating possibilities , just like the fact that Garmin are clean is a possibility also. There is no right or wrong. The one actual fact out there is that in five years, Garmin have not had a doping case. Yes, not tested positive means little but it is still an actual fact. The most dodgy case Garmin have had is the Trent Lowe case.

As I posted previously I have talked to people who would have had contact with riders who were at Garmin, their anti-doping policy seem's to be legit.
There is always a possibility that a rider is doping somewhere but then there is always a chance of a partner cheating on you as well.

Lance is upset that Vaughters and TT are text buddies.

Vaughters has a inside running to the man of the moment.

 

[sniper]

Yet on the other hand you want JV to call out SKY on nothing more than visual evidence. Do you see a slight double standard there.

everybody at garmin say garmin is squeeky clean. just read any random interview with vdv, talanski, martin, hesjedal, etc.
if they'd really be clean, yes, i'd expect them to be more questioning of teams like sky. but then i don't think they're squeeky clean, so i'm not surprised there.

and while there may not be enough evidence against sky, note that neither jv (nor any rider of Garmin) called out armstrong in the tdf 2009, even though his rider missed out on the podium thanks to armstrong. big fail.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I may be way off but wasn't it Talansky that gave Lance some love and respect a few months back in some interview?

 

[Digger]

I may be way off but wasn't it Talansky that gave Lance some love and respect a few months back in some interview?

Last June 12 mths - after a two year federal investigation amongst many other things - he tweeted that there was no evidence against lance

He then deleted it.

But look apparently JV thinks lance was clean in 2009 and 2010...the earth is still flat with those guys...

 

[pmcg76]

everybody at garmin say garmin is squeeky clean. just read any random interview with vdv, talanski, martin, hesjedal, etc.
if they'd really be clean, yes, i'd expect them to be more questioning of teams like sky. but then i don't think they're squeeky clean, so i'm not surprised there.

and while there may not be enough evidence against sky, note that neither jv (nor any rider of Garmin) called out armstrong in the tdf 2009, even though his rider missed out on the podium thanks to armstrong. big fail.

I am not talking about riders currently at Garmin, I am talking about former Garmin riders, Guys who are no longer at the top end of the sport. It seem's there were quite a few former Garmin riders who did not leave on good term's with JV. You think former rider's ****ed at JV don't talk to team-mates about what was happening at Garmin??

The only person who has called out SKY is Antonio Vayer who has also vouched for the cleanliness of Jean-Christophe Peraud (whom he coaches I think). Peraud finished 9th on his Tour debut and has a podium place at Paris-Nice and Top 5 in races like Pais Vasco, Romandy. If Peraud is clean like Vayer has claimed, how is it possible for him to achieve such results if nothing has changed within the peloton.

You and a few others think Garmin should be based in France which would suggest that France is stricter on doping so following on logically it would make sense that French riders are cleaner yet the results of the French have been improving over recent years. Either the sport is getting cleaner or the French are getting dirtier which would then suggest there is no more deterrent in France than anywhere else. Thus why would Garmin base there if there is no deterrent to doping??

"When you know how things are at the Vuelta, you have no interest in going there, it's ridiculous" So said a rider on a French team before the 2006 Vuelta, this year the same team took two victories and a rider in the Top 10 at the Vuelta.

I think most people understand that calling out people without a shred of evidence is not cool. People may have an opinion but usually will keep it to themselves unless they have some firm evidence to back up their opinions. They might say things off the record but not on the record.

I bet you would be seething if someone made a negative claim about you in a newspaper based purely on their opinion, especially if they didn't have anything to back it up with. People are free to state their opinions here all they want but it is not evidence no matter how much you want it to be.

 

[thehog]

Last June 12 mths - after a two year federal investigation amongst many other things - he tweeted that there was no evidence against lance

He then deleted it.

But look apparently JV thinks lance was clean in 2009 and 2010...the earth is still flat with those guys...

That Garmin anti-doping policy is working so well. All the guys on the team know it and respect it..

 

[IzzyStradlin]

You and a few others think Garmin should be based in France which would suggest that France is stricter on doping so following on logically it would make sense that French riders are cleaner yet the results of the French have been improving over recent years.

I would think the tax situation would be big reason not to be based in France.

 

[hektoren]

That Garmin anti-doping policy is working so well. All the guys on the team know it and respect it..

Yeah, and in these dire straits, financially, you'll have to hand it to JV. He sure is economical about the truth.

 

[D-Queued]

I am not talking about riders currently at Garmin, I am talking about former Garmin riders, Guys who are no longer at the top end of the sport. It seem's there were quite a few former Garmin riders who did not leave on good term's with JV. You think former rider's ****ed at JV don't talk to team-mates about what was happening at Garmin??

...

Do you have any links, or suggestions, or even hints on who such ex-Garmin riders might be?

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>
I bet you would be seething if someone made a negative claim about you in a newspaper based purely on their opinion, especially if they didn't have anything to back it up with. People are free to state their opinions here all they want but it is not evidence no matter how much you want it to be.

What does JV expect? He was a doper in a sport that is a cesspit. He can not be seething at any of this. This is par for the course in a sport where he cheated. He was part of the problem. I have not seen how he is part of the solution. He was part of getting Armstrong busted, but so where 10+ other people.

 

[pmcg76]

Do you have any links, or suggestions, or even hints on who such ex-Garmin riders might be?

Dave.

Well one is Mike Creed, he is on record as saying that he was very ****ed at JV for a long-time. Creed has done a series of podcast's in which he talk's to various people and it was mentioned that JV did not treat a lot of people very well. For example, Lucas Eusar broke his leg whilst at Garmin and missed a large part of his final season in contract and JV appeared to dump him without much sympathy or in the way of an apology. Obviously Trent Lowe is another and Danny Pate didn't seem too pleased with JV either.

There is one poster here who does not post frequently who mentioned a few things about JV which were backed up by someone with whom I had a discussion and who would have had contact with former Garmin riders. These "rumour's" were all in line with things Creed and Eusar mentioned. Yes, this is all 4th/5th hand news but that is how stories start.

JV definitely does not seem like the best boss ever but apparently is genuine about Garmin and their anti-doping stance.

 

[pmcg76]

What does JV expect? He was a doper in a sport that is a cesspit. He can not be seething at any of this. This is par for the course in a sport where he cheated. He was part of the problem. I have not seen how he is part of the solution. He was part of getting Armstrong busted, but so where 10+ other people.

I am not talking about JV, I am talking about sniper expecting people to call out SKY without any credible evidence. That is not realistic and not a standard model of behaviour in any walk of life unless there is hard evidence to back it up.

I think at least 3 of those other 10 were Garmin as well.

 

[thrawn]

Do you have any links, or suggestions, or even hints on who such ex-Garmin riders might be?

Dave.

Not trying to speak on his behalf, but at a guess Hushovd, Lowe and Haussler (maybe).

 

[DirtyWorks]

..You and a few others think Garmin should be based in France...

Not at all. How about adopting and publishing AG2r's anti-doping policies as public Team JV Regulation while strictly following the MPCC? Instead, we have a smooth anti-doping talker we're supposed to trust.


And again, the point is not calling JV's riders dopers. Really. It's possible, given the Pro Cycling environment that their riders are doping. It's also possible they are some version of clean. Both possibilities exist at the same time.

 

[D-Queued]

Well one is Mike Creed, he is on record as saying that he was very ****ed at JV for a long-time. Creed has done a series of podcast's in which he talk's to various people and it was mentioned that JV did not treat a lot of people very well. For example, Lucas Eusar broke his leg whilst at Garmin and missed a large part of his final season in contract and JV appeared to dump him without much sympathy or in the way of an apology. Obviously Trent Lowe is another and Danny Pate didn't seem too pleased with JV either.

There is one poster here who does not post frequently who mentioned a few things about JV which were backed up by someone with whom I had a discussion and who would have had contact with former Garmin riders. These "rumour's" were all in line with things Creed and Eusar mentioned. Yes, this is all 4th/5th hand news but that is how stories start.

JV definitely does not seem like the best boss ever but apparently is genuine about Garmin and their anti-doping stance.

Not trying to speak on his behalf, but at a guess Hushovd, Lowe and Haussler (maybe).

Thanks.

One of the above has a possible cross-reference that I am trying to pursue.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

Not at all. How about adopting and publishing AG2r's anti-doping policies as public Team JV Regulation while strictly following the MPCC? Instead, we have a smooth anti-doping talker we're supposed to trust.


And again, the point is not calling JV's riders dopers. Really. It's possible, given the Pro Cycling environment that their riders are doping. It's also possible they are some version of clean. Both possibilities exist at the same time.

It is possible that they are clean in their minds but not in sporting terms.

 

[pmcg76]

It is possible that they are clean in their minds but not in sporting terms.

How bout J-C.Peraud, 9th in his first Tour, Clean, on the podium at Paris-Nice, Clean, Top 5 at Pais Vasco and Romandy, Clean. All according to Vayer. Care to explain??

 

[Taxus4a]

When I talk with cyclist they know exactly what is clean. They know the rules and they study the new sustances that every year the UCI publish as not allowed.

Clean is clean, it is dont broke the rules, if you take something in the list you are not clean.

It is possible to win the Tour that way? Today yes.

They difference among the kinds of doping, of course, but they dont say as clean people taking or doing anything illegal.

They can take vitamins and other products, but some rides even dont take anything. That is strange, anyway, just some exceptions.

 

[the sceptic]

How bout J-C.Peraud, 9th in his first Tour, Clean, on the podium at Paris-Nice, Clean, Top 5 at Pais Vasco and Romandy, Clean. All according to Vayer. Care to explain??

Sounds cleans to me. Does he speak english and ride for garmin? Only way to make sure.

 

[pmcg76]

Sounds cleans to me. Does he speak english and ride for garmin? Only way to make sure.

Oh what a shock, sneering from the peanut gallery. If Peraud is clean, then it backs up the cleaner peloton mantra. How many clean guys finished Top 10 in the Tour between 96-06??

 

[The Hitch]

When I talk with cyclist they know exactly what is clean. They know the rules and they study the new sustances that every year the UCI publish as not allowed.

Clean is clean, it is dont broke the rules, if you take something in the list you are not clean.
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EeFa8QOq_Y

 

[Benotti69]

How bout J-C.Peraud, 9th in his first Tour, Clean, on the podium at Paris-Nice, Clean, Top 5 at Pais Vasco and Romandy, Clean. All according to Vayer. Care to explain??

Explain what? I have never declared Peraud to be clean. Vayer has. Ask him.

Chill P.

 

[martinvickers]

Explain what? I have never declared Peraud to be clean. Vayer has. Ask him.

Chill P.

Brmm, Brmmm, under the bus goes Vayer...nobody pure enough, nobody...

 

[pmcg76]

Explain what? I have never declared Peraud to be clean. Vayer has. Ask him.

Chill P.

Of course deflection. MartinVickers was spot on, you sound like some sort of religious fanatic, posting the exact same mantra over and over and simply dismissing any evidence that shows the opposite.

You keep going on about how the sport can't change when all the same characters are in the sport. I gave you a real life example of an environment that had changed despite having the same characters involved, Northern Ireland. Your response was to claim that the situation in NI had not changed and it was just the media ignoring it now. Serious case of denial.

Antoine Vayer has been considered a strong voice on the doping situation in cycling for a long time now, much like Bassons. Vayer was also lauded around here(undoubtedly including yourself) when he published his book showing 'mutant' performances and for questioning SKY s performances. Vayer also works with Peraud and has stated that Peraud is a clean athlete.

Peraud's performances don't jive with what you claim is possible for a clean riders so rather than address it, you just dismiss it as irrelevant. Typical hypocritical type of reasoning, Vayer is a hero when he might be pointing out doping but dismissed when he points out a clean rider.

Must really bug you that Vayer also believes Dan Martin is clean, add Vayer onto Kimmage for that but hey what do these guys know more than the clairvoyant Benotti. You simply cannot admit there might be a clean rider because if Peraud is clean, there could also be plenty of riders around his level that are also clean which then makes a mockery of your never-ending mantra 'Not clean-ER'.

It is also laughable how you believe that LeMond was clean because nobody has ever accused him of doping. So what? Has anyone with a strong anti-doping stance ever vouched for LeMond being clean and I mean someone who actually worked with LeMond, not someone looking back and saying LeMond's performances were within human capabilities.

Right now, Jean Chrsitophe Peraud has more credibility than LeMond.

 

[red_flanders]

Of course deflection. MartinVickers was spot on, you sound like some sort of religious fanatic, posting the exact same mantra over and over and simply dismissing any evidence that shows the opposite.

You keep going on about how the sport can't change when all the same characters are in the sport. I gave you a real life example of an environment that had changed despite having the same characters involved, Northern Ireland. Your response was to claim that the situation in NI had not changed and it was just the media ignoring it now. Serious case of denial.

Antoine Vayer has been considered a strong voice on the doping situation in cycling for a long time now, much like Bassons. Vayer was also lauded around here(undoubtedly including yourself) when he published his book showing 'mutant' performances and for questioning SKY s performances. Vayer also works with Peraud and has stated that Peraud is a clean athlete.

Peraud's performances don't jive with what you claim is possible for a clean riders so rather than address it, you just dismiss it as irrelevant. Typical hypocritical type of reasoning, Vayer is a hero when he might be pointing out doping but dismissed when he points out a clean rider.

Must really bug you that Vayer also believes Dan Martin is clean, add Vayer onto Kimmage for that but hey what do these guys know more than the clairvoyant Benotti. You simply cannot admit there might be a clean rider because if Peraud is clean, there could also be plenty of riders around his level that are also clean which then makes a mockery of your never-ending mantra 'Not clean-ER'.

Great post, well argued.

It is also laughable how you believe that LeMond was clean because nobody has ever accused him of doping. So what? Has anyone with a strong anti-doping stance ever vouched for LeMond being clean and I mean someone who actually worked with LeMond, not someone looking back and saying LeMond's performances were within human capabilities.

Right now, Jean Chrsitophe Peraud has more credibility than LeMond.

You're losing me here. Many people have vouched for LeMond, including Hampsten and that bastion of cleanliness Eddy B. Both unbidden and for no reason. Many, many more have.

There are many reasons people believe LeMond to have been clean, not the least of which are many people who would know saying so, and the fact that no one who worked with or rode with him, even when incentivized with a LOT of money has ever said otherwise. There is plenty of other evidence of his cleanliness which we don't need to go into here. He has nothing to do with JV, Garmin or the current crop of riders IMO.