JV talks, sort of

[blackcat]

great posts digger and hitch

Brilliant - he maintains that walking away from a big contract with CA was sacrifice enough - forgetting that he would not have had that contract if he hadn't doped.

He would not have the name he did, in order to set up that development team, if he hadn't initially doped.

Talks about decreasing times - when a time comes along which beats the time of Oxygen Vector doping times - silence. He wants it both ways.

Talks about giving people a second chance - ok...but what happened with Floyd landis' second chance?

Talks about bullying - but said not a word in support of taylor phinney when he talked of finishing bottles

Talks of fairness - didn't see him talk about how wrong it was that Fuyu Li got a two year ban and Rogers got nothing.

Talks of it being cleaner - yet uses calibration issues when there are, shall we say, results which are not what you might expect. (mild way of putting it)

Says Alberto Contador might have been Antonio Colom on the Puerto files...yet AC was in the middle of Libery Sigueros riders.

Absolutely slaughtered Joerg Jaksche.

JV does obfuscate - ok don't answer me I can get that - but it's something Kimmage even complained about in 2008.


Stuart O'Grady - JV initially supporting his version - until Johan sorted that one out...


And for the record, I thought the way he spoke to someone like Stokes, who does a good job, in a difficult environment, was all wrong. It was just pure politics. Answering but not answering.

JV seems to have forgotten that he did dope, and did lie.

If your career was based on those 2 things, and essentially all your success since has spawned from those, then at least aknowledge that.

When I was about 5 I was rude to my teacher and stuck a tongue out, and **** if I didn't feel guilty about it every single time I saw her from then till I left primary school 5 years later.

JV doesn't seem to have that.

He seems to think anyone who remotely doubts him is in the wrong. As if they have no right to do so.
If you lied and cheated then people have the right to do doubt you. Even if they are all in the wrong and all jerks and all would eat your dog, well it comes with the territory of having lied and cheated before.

It is every fans individual right to decide if they want to trust JV. And I don't see how anyone can truly be repentant if they consider the people they duped the once to have no right to doubt them the second time.

He's done some things for clean sport, some things to make me believe him, such as coming on here, and allowing Kimmage at the 2010 TDF, and I have defended him, but he doesn't these days even seem to aknowledge his own past these days.

His twitter handle says "I have dedicated my life to anti doping". Really?

If you doped and lied for much of your career, and you now want to help anti doping, then aknowledging that people won't trust you should the starting point. Rule number 1.

As the poem says

"If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too"

That applies doubly so if you lied to them in the first place.

As w-ankmeister cycling blog pointed out in a brilliant article on JV that has unfortunately since been taken down, any honorable action requires a sacrifice. JV doesn't seem to think there is any sacrifice. Or if there is he feels he's paid it, and everyone should welcome him back with open arms.
That's not his decision to make.

In this way he embodies the present attitude of the sport. The belief that doping can be fought without any sacrifice.

Calling Shane Stokes a dunce, using distractions rather than answering actual questions, his hypocrisy regarding ascent times, and worst of all for me keeping absolutely secret Hesjedal's doping history while riding a "clean gt winner" tag on him, then acting not only as if he had done nothing wrong but acting as if the fans should be thankful that Hesjedal confessed - in secret knowing there would be no repercussions

JV instead dismisses anyone who doubts, treats them as the enemy (even if they are in the wrong, you cheated earlier, you deal with it), then continues to behave dishonestly on several occasions such as the above.

If I had doped and cheated earlier I would feel red faced about it for the rest of my life and forever feel like I owe something. Doubly so if I continued to work in cycling.

Luckily for JV, and his general health I suppose, he has a different attitude.

 

[thehog]

And helping Lance in with SCA

 

[Digger]

And helping Lance in with SCA

Yea that was amazing...also dismissed morkeberg as not having enough experience, whilst praising damsgaard. Damsgaard being the guy who accepted gifts from Astana and Johan.

 

[D-Queued]

but there is a question on the ethics of holding out on Brailsford with the Wiggins contract in 2009/2010 off-season. it really was a krushchev or khrushchev kennedy brinksmanship. bloody cyrillic never know how the spelling translates, python?

his 2009 performance, obviously not legit at the TdF, JV wanted to sell his contract based on a boosted Armstrong like metamorphosis.

Not to argue with you, but I would lump this under 'that's business' as opposed to 'that's doping'.

JV may be a tougher business guy than we might given credit for. His contemporaries / counterparts aren't always the nicest of guys.

You could be right about his '09 performance. But, if Lance was right about not doping in '09 (alligator tears and chickens teeth being more probable), then Wiggo couldn't beat a donkey that year.

Dave.

 

[red_flanders]

I completely agree about the strength of Froome's display, and that he paid no heed to Talansky. I brought this up to show an example of a full-on Froome effort that was a whopping 12s faster than Talansky.

It was said that this was not possible. It was then said that Froome wasn't trying, or he didn't care about Talansky. Glad we agree he was riding out of his skin and that Talansky was of no concern.

More generally, you either take performances as an indicator or you don't. And what do you think the power estimates were for Froome and Contador? Same times, but given Froome's obvious tactical naivety, Contador should have saved a few watts. Eh?

As for attacking posters, I remind you that Digger accused me of sending him abusive tweets. He made that up. Thanks for upholding fair play.

Definitely. Because the climb was ridden as a set of intervals, and the tactics defined the pace, I don't think times up the climb tell much. Contador worked much, much less. I would guess on the order of 20%.

 

[pmcg76]

JV seems to have forgotten that he did dope, and did lie.

snipped.

Luckily for JV, and his general health I suppose, he has a different attitude.

I don't really see how keeping Hesjedals doping a secret is any different to any of the other dopers on his team. Technically he kept all their histories a secret, or in the case of CVV, DZ and Tom D until they were about to be revealed anyways.

From the rise of Slipstream to the top level in 08, JV was clear on the fact that there would be dopers on his team, but that they would also be riding clean at his team. Regadless of whether you believe the second part, I think the first part covers Hesjedals and all other dopers at Garmin and is not some big secret that JV went out of his way to keep.

Like Lance or many riders from the 00s, chances were any rider who rode for Postal in the 00s had a high risk of being a doper so not sure what the big secret was. Was I shocked when it was revealed Ryder was a doper, ahh no.

As for promoting him as a clean GT winner, well again depending on what you want to believe that might be true as previous doping does not preclude him from being clean in 2012. Eric Caritoux was a clean GT winner according to Willy Voet but was not a clean rider. Thus the statement about Ryder being a clean GT winner may be accurate(again depends on what you believe).

On his hypocrisy on ascent times, not totally sure what you are referring to. Again maybe I see this differently but when JV has talked about ascent times, to me, it has been more in the general average ascent times than individual riders. That doesn't mean there will be no outliers like Froome.

Reading that twitter exchange with Stokes, he asked JV about the Madone climb and JV brought up the 20 fastest times on average being slower(Where he got this info, I don't know). Thus the same individual rider v general average speed divergence. People want JV to call out individual riders when I think it is clear he is not going to do so and has never done so. Clearly peope don't agree with that stance but why keep challening him on it when you already know what the response will be.

As for punishment and sacrifice, I think that may also have differing views. Perhaps JV see's his work with juniors and growing a team from the bottom level of cycling as his payback for his sins. Clearly many don't see it that way and think that JV jumped off his bike, set up a team and boom was back in big time cycling.

I happened to be going through an old thread recently and one of the few pro riders on here spoke of his respect for JV for setting up a junior team and driving from Colordao to Montana and all over with them. The same guy is no lover of JV but he did have respect for the way JV started with a junior team. Maybe his opinion has changed since but he rode with quite a few former JV riders so had some of the inside scoop on Garmin.

I have heards things about JV that would definitely suggest he can be a total ******bag but then again reading through threads in the clinic would give the same impression of just about all posters who post in the clinic(myself included).

 

[mewmewmew13]

fwiw pretty sure JV thinks Froome is a mutant

 

[SeriousSam]

Don't think so, after all, didn't he try his hardest to drop Talansky and was only able to put 12s into him?

 

[blackcat]

Not to argue with you, but I would lump this under 'that's business' as opposed to 'that's doping'.

JV may be a tougher business guy than we might given credit for. His contemporaries / counterparts aren't always the nicest of guys.

You could be right about his '09 performance. But, if Lance was right about not doping in '09 (alligator tears and chickens teeth being more probable), then Wiggo couldn't beat a donkey that year.

Dave.

i was supposed to add the devils advocate, re: slipstream assets. if his value is his value, should JV given him a release from his contract? or less than market value from Brailsford Murdoch n Sky? so thats the devils advocate i never added as caveat

 

[Big Doopie]

I don't really see how keeping Hesjedals doping a secret is any different to any of the other dopers on his team. Technically he kept all their histories a secret, or in the case of CVV, DZ and Tom D until they were about to be revealed anyways.

From the rise of Slipstream to the top level in 08, JV was clear on the fact that there would be dopers on his team, but that they would also be riding clean at his team. Regadless of whether you believe the second part, I think the first part covers Hesjedals and all other dopers at Garmin and is not some big secret that JV went out of his way to keep.

Like Lance or many riders from the 00s, chances were any rider who rode for Postal in the 00s had a high risk of being a doper so not sure what the big secret was. Was I shocked when it was revealed Ryder was a doper, ahh no.

As for promoting him as a clean GT winner, well again depending on what you want to believe that might be true as previous doping does not preclude him from being clean in 2012. Eric Caritoux was a clean GT winner according to Willy Voet but was not a clean rider. Thus the statement about Ryder being a clean GT winner may be accurate(again depends on what you believe).

On his hypocrisy on ascent times, not totally sure what you are referring to. Again maybe I see this differently but when JV has talked about ascent times, to me, it has been more in the general average ascent times than individual riders. That doesn't mean there will be no outliers like Froome.

Reading that twitter exchange with Stokes, he asked JV about the Madone climb and JV brought up the 20 fastest times on average being slower(Where he got this info, I don't know). Thus the same individual rider v general average speed divergence. People want JV to call out individual riders when I think it is clear he is not going to do so and has never done so. Clearly peope don't agree with that stance but why keep challening him on it when you already know what the response will be.

As for punishment and sacrifice, I think that may also have differing views. Perhaps JV see's his work with juniors and growing a team from the bottom level of cycling as his payback for his sins. Clearly many don't see it that way and think that JV jumped off his bike, set up a team and boom was back in big time cycling.

I happened to be going through an old thread recently and one of the few pro riders on here spoke of his respect for JV for setting up a junior team and driving from Colordao to Montana and all over with them. The same guy is no lover of JV but he did have respect for the way JV started with a junior team. Maybe his opinion has changed since but he rode with quite a few former JV riders so had some of the inside scoop on Garmin.

I have heards things about JV that would definitely suggest he can be a total ******bag but then again reading through threads in the clinic would give the same impression of just about all posters who post in the clinic(myself included).

Post of the decade!!

A tip of the hat to you dear sir/madam.

From one of those very own clinic ******bags

 

[blackcat]

Don't think so, after all, didn't he try his hardest to drop Talansky and was only able to put 12s into him?

is not this a demonstration of how time gaps are forthcoming in GTs? 200km, multiple cat 1 and HC ascents, usually a leading team controlling and setting a hard tempo and whittling the peloton down, but even when 30 odd make the bottom of the final ascent, they still have a couple of cat 1 ascents in their legs.

Take a few of those out, the gaps will always be less as riders can follow wheels. I remember a stage when that Colombia guy who won the polka dot jersey for was it Barlo, that kid, he had a fall off a mountain in Vuelta i think, one stage where he won the stage at the Tour, i think his first win, only win, at the Tour, i remember John Vansummeren being on the ascent of the last cat 1, it was a descent finish, and der giraffe was the final domestique for Evans on the mtn stage. he won the Roubaix about 5 years later with JV and Garmin.

if you have motivation, and its a shorter stage, with less ascents, and a leaders jersey team not going au bloc for 180 ks, the gaps gonna be less dude. and if Froome has no incentive to go from the bottom, or from 2 ascents out, like Landis

 

[D-Queued]

Post of the decade!!

A tip of the hat to you dear sir/madam.

From one of those very own clinic ******bags

can't you guys spell dirtbags?

Dave.

 

[Big Doopie]

can't you guys spell dirtbags?

Dave.

................

 

[Benotti69]

JV started with a junior team so he is ok!!!!!!!!!!!

Start them doping young.................

 

[zigmeister]

Garmin/Slipstream has developed and implemented some pretty strict standards related to doping on their team the past 4-5yrs.

Since that time, has anybody got popped in the past few years? I don't think so. The rest of the Peloton, yep, pretty much every team has been implicated with one/two of their riders over the same time period.

From what I know, any riders Garmin is courting, they are required to get on a plane, with zero notice, one chance, and show up at the airport, then be immediately taken for testing. Completely random when this could occur. So if you are takings stuff, this is a problem. You deny the flight/trip/ticket...you are no longer being sought after, game over for any chance with Garmin. That is a pretty big deterrent as a rider who has potential Pro UCI dreams/hopes. So if you are rolling along, getting results, surprise, here is your ticket/chance, you better show up, no excuses and pass with flying colors. And I'm sure it likely doesn't stop there.

Furthermore, I don't think we know enough about the internal controls, specifically riders contracts regarding doping. What does the contract they signed say? Massive financial penalties, Rider X, you now owe us $5M USD for tarnishing our record/company/sponsors? Immediately firing and referral to UCI/WADA/USADA that you are a doping, Scarlet Letter treatment? I don't know. You make it so absurdly difficult with huge financial penalties ruining someone's life/career....you have two choices, stay clean...or risk getting busted and just committing suicide, because you just did yourself in anyway.

Having more insight and transparency on these issues would help convince people that the team is cleaner/clean.

 

[Netserk]

No Riis rider has been popped since Puerto either...

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

No Riis rider has been popped since Puerto either...

Has anyone come out and said that JV encouraged them to dope? Maybe someone has written about it?

 

[Netserk]

Has anyone come out and said that JV encouraged them to dope? Maybe someone has written about it?

So what?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

So what?

You compared Riis to JV so I am also wondering if they have anything else in common as DS.

 

[Netserk]

You compared Riis to JV so I am also wondering if they have anything else in common as DS.

No I didn't. My post was a response to zigmeister's 2nd paragraph.

 

[thehog]

Has anyone come out and said that JV encouraged them to dope? Maybe someone has written about it?

Yes.

DeCanio said JV showed him how to use EPO to avoid testing postitive.

"This was explained to me by Jonathan Vaughters who you should know if you know anything about pro cycling.* As he was my teammate on Prime Alliance I will tell you what he told me was the way to avoid testing positive for EPO.* I used EPO briefly but never tested positive.* But I was never tested for EPO while using it but if I was a constant I imagine Vaughters technique would have been the way Lance could have gotten away with it.* Please keep in mind they didn't have a test for many years, and Lance's samples that were frozen and saved, all of his B samples tested positive for EPO when later tested.* He got away with it, and if you look at the case of Kayle Leogrande, he had positive B samples, and an eye witness to him admitting his usage, well Lance did too.* Frankie Andreu and his wife in the hospital room.* The SCA Promotions Trial.* Lance had numerous B samples test positive.* Well Kayle got busted and Lance got off then.* Lance should have been sanctioned then if the system was fair.

Back to avoiding the positive test by Vaughters.* He told when you use EPO it produces a synthetic product in your blood and this is what is flagged.* But if you use EPO and put your body at altitude this will cause your body to replace those flags so you will not test positive for EPO.* So having an altitude chamber or living at altitude while using EPO you will not test positive for EPO.

That is from the highest secrets of the pro racers.* Consider with careful planning how Lance could have avoided testing positive.

Matt DeCanio"

 

[zigmeister]

No I didn't. My post was a response to zigmeister's 2nd paragraph.

This is a JV thread...so what about Riis. That was an odd and arbitrary comparison to my points.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Yes.

DeCanio said JV showed him how to use EPO to avoid testing postitive.

As a DS..?

 

[Tinman]

I'm ok for now to give JV the benefit of the doubt when he says he stands for a no doping policy for his team. I don't feel that way for Sky at all. I don't see GS winning too many things or winning things suspiciously as a whole.

I don't think JV can at all guarantee that some of his riders don't have an individual program running. Nor do I believe he would be open about this to the media if he did find reason to suspect one of his riders.

I don't at all believe the sport is cleaner now, nor do I believe JV would necessarily state that today. As opposed to when he stated it quite some time ago.

I would like to see JV re-state his current position on today's status of the peloton.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I'm ok for now to give JV the benefit of the doubt when he says he stands for a no doping policy for his team. I don't feel that way for Sky at all. I don't see GS winning too many things or winning things suspiciously as a whole.

I don't think JV can at all guarantee that some of his riders don't have an individual program running. Nor do I believe he would be open about this to the media if he did find reason to suspect one of his riders.

I don't at all believe the sport is cleaner now, nor do I believe JV would necessarily state that today. As opposed to when he stated it quite some time ago.

I would like to see JV re-state his current position on today's status of the peloton.

There were a whole lot of rumours about Hushovd at, the time he left Garmin-Cervelo (as it was then IIRC) that JV found anomalies through internal testing and told him he wouldn't be renewed.