JV talks, sort of

[Digger]

Answer the question, "Digger", as opposed to alway trying to weasel into a different topic. Again, normal behavior for you.

You're the one who is saying 'normal behaviour' for me - and I am replying by saying it's not like you can talk.

 

[JV1973]

And since anti-doping is still a joke, all the enablers still 'enable' in the sport, the pack still dopes.

That's just flat out untrue and inaccurate. But if you wish to continue to believing in your religion, please, don't let me stop you.

 

[hrotha]

The interviews with usada were typically 8 hours long. the affidavits were 8-14 pages. They didn't cover everything discussed. Now, i have no idea what Tom said in his interview, I do know plenty of stuff wasn't in my affidavit.

In addition to my previous answer, to more precisely address your answer of "what makes me think he told authorities the truth?" Pretty simple: Why wouldn't he? The agreement he signed basically said "tell the truth and you get 6 mos, tell a lie and we catch you, lifetime ban" ....So, by default it would be really stupid not to tell the full truth. In for a dime, in for a dollar.

I don't know, why do people perjure themselves and end up going to jail? Maybe because they don't grasp how serious the situation is, or because they think they can get away with it. Who knows.

The thing with Danielson's affidavit is that the way it's worded it definitely doesn't sound like all that's going on here is we're missing some information that didn't make it to the final affidavit and which would explain everything:

25. The team [Fassa Bortolo's] doctor (who is currently the team doctor for Liquigas-Cannondale) said that some riders had second or third apartments which they used to store their performance enhancing drugs. I also came to understand that the wives of my teammates were serving as drug runners.
26. As a consequence, I began to realize the prevalence of doping and to ask questions about doping methods.

52. Pepe then provided some instructions on the use of EPO. I was to inject the EPO intravenously in the evening and never to take it subcutaneously. I was to always try to hide from testers and was to try not to get tested. But, if I was tested I was to try to pee before providing a sample.
53. On Fassa Bortolo I had learned to inject vitamins intravenously so I was fairly comfortable injecting myself.

This certainly doesn't sound like he said he doped back then but USADA didn't find it relevant. Rather, this sounds like he actually and explicitly claimed to not have doped at Saturn and to not have used EPO before Discovery.

 

[Digger]

hey JV seen as you wouldn't answer and you accuse me of being a weasel, did doug know that Floyd had doped when he put money into the fund?

 

[JV1973]

Noting 2008, I am assuming you mean WT level in respect of performance level, as 2009 was the first ProTour Garmin outfit iirc? However much like Cervélo in 2009-10 the Garmin outfit could more or less hold its own at any ProTour event in 2008; I remember quite a lot of media fuss about the Giro TTT win as a wildcard team.

But my question is more about the use of 2008 as a line in the sand. It seems to be quite common belief that, although far from clean, the 2008 Tour was arguably the cleanest in a long time (and with AFLD in charge of testing, at least the more egregious dopers were caught, and the CERA test had been held on to so that not everybody was aware of its existence (which due to the long-tail nature of CERA meant quite a few were caught). Speeds were down, relatively speaking.

But then in 2009, AFLD were dismissed from their testing position, and the speeds were back up (VAM record on Verbier etc.), although I accept that this was exacerbated by an absolutely abysmal course design that made it extremely easy for Astana to control throughout and without many obstacles to mean riders were arriving at major mountains fatigued. It seems now from what we have found out in retrospect that your explanation of it taking a hardened doper to continue doping past 2008 that in retrospect, 2008 was something of a false dawn in terms of the péloton in general, is that a reading you would disagree with? I mean, of the 2009 top 10, 4 have served bans (1 of which is CVDV admittedly), 1 further looks like being about to be banned (Kreuziger), and another is Andreas Klöden. Levi would be there too if he hadn't crashed out. It seems alarming that after a year where we could feel that the cheats were getting caught (a number of names thrown out of 2008 Tour for doping or caught later), we would see such a shady top 10 (also, Fränk was of course named in Puerto, and obviously is a hardened doper by your definition since he continued to dope, as he was caught in 2012).

Did you ever consider any need to revisit or revise your policy on that deadline date (I will assume Dekker is excepted as, though his ban stemmed from 2008, that was on retests of 2007 samples), much as Sky have had to re-assess their zero tolerance policy? For example, if they had shown full commitment to clean cycling and were able to convince you they had the talent to ride at the WT level clean, would you take on a rider like, say, Emanuele Sella, who has by most accounts been frank and honest with the authorities and whose evidence has led to a number of subsequent positives and discoveries in Italy, but whose offences were in 2008? What would your stance be on a guy like Rui Costa, who has a ban in his history but is officially cleared of any wrongdoing?

Very good post. Thank you.

We haven't revisited our policy, beyond (as you mentioned) with Dekker, which we felt met our "line" but barely, as you point out. This is why I pointed out that our system was imperfect, but an effort at a composite solution. Honestly, i think we will stick by this policy. if it proves unrealistic, the I think it is better that we resign from the sport. Just my thought.

 

[JV1973]

I don't know, why do people perjure themselves and end up going to jail? Maybe because they don't grasp how serious the situation is, or because they think they can get away with it. Who knows.

The thing with Danielson's affidavit is that the way it's worded it definitely doesn't sound like all that's going on here is we're missing some information that didn't make it to the final affidavit and which would explain everything:


This certainly doesn't sound like he said he doped back then but USADA didn't find it relevant. Rather, this sounds like he actually and explicitly claimed to not have doped at Saturn and to not have used EPO before Discovery.

I see your point. But I can say Tom was fully aware of the consequences - and quite concerned with them. I don't know what he said/didn't say in the interview to its full extent.

 

[pmcg76]

I don't know, why do people perjure themselves and end up going to jail? Maybe because they don't grasp how serious the situation is, or because they think they can get away with it. Who knows.

The thing with Danielson's affidavit is that the way it's worded it definitely doesn't sound like all that's going on here is we're missing some information that didn't make it to the final affidavit and which would explain everything:


This certainly doesn't sound like he said he doped back then but USADA didn't find it relevant. Rather, this sounds like he actually and explicitly claimed to not have doped at Saturn and to not have used EPO before Discovery.

Well in fariness, Danielson did jack all at Fassa preformance wise and only lasted one season so maybe he wasn't on EPO but who knows. Could a rider win Langkawi without EPO?

 

[JV1973]

I don't know, why do people perjure themselves and end up going to jail? Maybe because they don't grasp how serious the situation is, or because they think they can get away with it. Who knows.

The thing with Danielson's affidavit is that the way it's worded it definitely doesn't sound like all that's going on here is we're missing some information that didn't make it to the final affidavit and which would explain everything:


This certainly doesn't sound like he said he doped back then but USADA didn't find it relevant. Rather, this sounds like he actually and explicitly claimed to not have doped at Saturn and to not have used EPO before Discovery.

Also, why would Tom care about admitting to doping on saturn or fassa? he could have doped 5 minutes before the usada interview and as long as he disclosed it: 6mos..... lied about it: lifetime ban.

 

[hrotha]

Also, why would Tom care about admitting to doping on saturn or fassa? he could have doped 5 minutes before the usada interview and as long as he disclosed it: 6mos..... lied about it: lifetime ban.

My guess would be he entered that room intending to admit only to what USADA already knew. Why? Who knows. But he wouldn't be the first athlete who feels the need to salvage part of their career as if to convince the fans that they're not a fraud. Incomplete confessions aren't exactly uncommon (why hello there, O'Grady and Zabel!).

 

[Benotti69]

That's just flat out untrue and inaccurate. But if you wish to continue to believing in your religion, please, don't let me stop you.

Religion! You need to be a smuck to 'believe' the sport cleanED up.

Yeah, it caught Armstrong in 09 & 10 and Cookson is proving how 'old shcool' he is. It caught Horner, 42 winning a GT.......Ferrari still working away.....Leinders got a job after Rabo , Ibarguren still working, Max Testa, allthe doping docs still in the sport. Doping DS all running the big teams......

Smoke and Mirrors JV, smoke and mirrors.

 

[JV1973]

My guess would be he entered that room intending to admit only to what USADA already knew. Why? Who knows. But he wouldn't be the first athlete who feels the need to salvage part of their career as if to convince the fans that they're not a fraud. Incomplete confessions aren't exactly uncommon (why hello there, O'Grady and Zabel!).

Yeah, could be. I don't think so, but that's my opinion. I know that I disclosed every hairy detail to those guys, simply because I didn't want to have to go through the whole thing again! (a la Zabel)

And I encouraged the rest to do the same...strongly encouraged!

 

[peloton]

JV, have you read the "The Climb" and if so, your thoughts?

 

[Digger]

"No 6 mos (months) suspensions have been given to any member of (Garmin-Sharp owner) Slipstream Sports. Today or at any future date," Vaughters wrote on his Twitter account prior to the fifth stage of the Tour on Thursday

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/05/us-cycling-doping-garmin-idUSBRE8640D620120705

 

[JV1973]

Religion! You need to be a smuck to 'believe' the sport cleanED up.

Yeah, it caught Armstrong in 09 & 10 and Cookson is proving how 'old shcool' he is. It caught Horner, 42 winning a GT.......Ferrari still working away.....Leinders got a job after Rabo , Ibarguren still working, Max Testa, allthe doping docs still in the sport. Doping DS all running the big teams......

Smoke and Mirrors JV, smoke and mirrors.

My good fellow, I don't like those guys any more than you do, but I don't have any bullets that kill them. Well, i do like Cookson.

Anyhow, I'm just giving you my opinion of current times. Not more. It's not smoke and mirrors, not because I don't know how to play that game, but because I just don't care to anymore. Old and tired ******* i am.

 

[JV1973]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/05/us-cycling-doping-garmin-idUSBRE8640D620120705

Yep. That was true on the day i said it. It changed later. life's a ****er.

 

[JV1973]

JV, have you read the "The Climb" and if so, your thoughts?

No. Haven't read it. i haven't read any of these books recently. I just had my last day of class on friday, so I may now have time to do some recreational reading as opposed to the f-ing Harvard Business review...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Very good post. Thank you.

We haven't revisited our policy, beyond (as you mentioned) with Dekker, which we felt met our "line" but barely, as you point out. This is why I pointed out that our system was imperfect, but an effort at a composite solution. Honestly, i think we will stick by this policy. if it proves unrealistic, the I think it is better that we resign from the sport. Just my thought.

Obviously I'm dealing entirely with hypotheticals here, but I'm assuming from your response that you confirm Sella would be a no-go owing to offences beyond the cut-off date. Which is fair enough, I guess, since it's your rule. The Costa case, however, is an interesting hypothetical situation in that he has never committed an offence, officially, as the ban was quashed and I'm interested in how the Slipstream policy accounts for unusual cases like that. Take as another example, Jimmy Casper's corticosteroid positive from the 2008 Tour, for a substance he had held an exemption for for a decade prior to the test, but due to a change in medication and an administrative error, paperwork had not gone through in time. It does not look like there is any attempt to deceive, and it does not look on the surface like Casper has committed any wrongdoing, but it is a positive test after 01/01/2008.

You could probably argue that cases like these are anomalous, so unless Slipstream had any intention of signing the particular named riders the situation would not arise. But I had not been aware until you mentioned it just now that you had that cut-off date and it got me thinking because of the anomalous case of Dekker.

 

[peloton]

No. Haven't read it. i haven't read any of these books recently. I just had my last day of class on friday, so I may now have time to do some recreational reading as opposed to the f-ing Harvard Business review...

heh, thanks. Congrats too, both team and personal life

 

[JV1973]

Obviously I'm dealing entirely with hypotheticals here, but I'm assuming from your response that you confirm Sella would be a no-go owing to offences beyond the cut-off date. Which is fair enough, I guess, since it's your rule. The Costa case, however, is an interesting hypothetical situation in that he has never committed an offence, officially, as the ban was quashed and I'm interested in how the Slipstream policy accounts for unusual cases like that. Take as another example, Jimmy Casper's corticosteroid positive from the 2008 Tour, for a substance he had held an exemption for for a decade prior to the test, but due to a change in medication and an administrative error, paperwork had not gone through in time. It does not look like there is any attempt to deceive, and it does not look on the surface like Casper has committed any wrongdoing, but it is a positive test after 01/01/2008.

You could probably argue that cases like these are anomalous, so unless Slipstream had any intention of signing the particular named riders the situation would not arise. But I had not been aware until you mentioned it just now that you had that cut-off date and it got me thinking because of the anomalous case of Dekker.

Yeah, I'm not familiar with the specifics of the Rui case. Sounds as if it would have merit in an exemption scenario. Our policy isn't one of the ten commandments, so it can be adjusted. But to adjust it we would really need a compelling reason. I think in the cases you list above, I would probably just go with another rider and pass on the transfer, just for simplicity sake.

JV

 

[JV1973]

heh, thanks. Congrats too, both team and personal life

Thank you.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Today or at any future date,

Yep. That was true on the day i said it. It changed later. life's a ****er.

It's interesting. A Dutch newspaper claims your Garmin riders are going to get 6 month bans.

On Thursday, Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf said Garmin's Tour de France riders Christian Vande Velde and David Zabriskie, and two more U.S. cyclists on other teams, had agreed to give evidence of wrongdoing in exchange for suspended six-month bans.

You say that is not true now, nor will it be in the future.

"No 6 mos (months) suspensions have been given to any member of (Garmin-Sharp owner) Slipstream Sports. Today or at any future date," Vaughters wrote on his Twitter account prior to the fifth stage of the Tour on Thursday.

September / October (a future date from July 5th) they sign affidavits and get 6 month bans.

Do you find it incredible that a Dutch newspaper knew more about what your team's riders were going to do and the ban they were going to receive (at a future date) than you did?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

So... Who has two thumbs and outs people's real identity when ****ed off?

Mr. Vaughters, my biggest problem I have with ex-dopers being part of the sport is that they have demonstrated that they'll cut corners to get what they want if it's expedient. Ex: Trent Lowe - rather than deal with the situation you stopped answering his emails.

Since you're outing people, who's Race Radio? I only know his first name.

John Swanson

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well in fariness, Danielson did jack all at Fassa preformance wise and only lasted one season so maybe he wasn't on EPO but who knows. Could a rider win Langkawi without EPO?

Read Tilford's blog and subsequent comments to see what Danielson (and Horner) did around the time he was riding for Saturn. There was a period of lull and he came back and smacked people around, dropping bunches and putting time into chasing packs single handedly, all of a sudden. I wasn't there, obviously, but I don't see too many people calling Tilford out as a liar.

 

[blackcat]

Very good post. Thank you.

We haven't revisited our policy, beyond (as you mentioned) with Dekker, which we felt met our "line" but barely, as you point out. This is why I pointed out that our system was imperfect, but an effort at a composite solution. Honestly, i think we will stick by this policy. if it proves unrealistic, the I think it is better that we resign from the sport. Just my thought.

yo JV, you know Tommy and il dolfino or whatever his nick is, went head to head all thru the espoirs and Dekker had Nibali's mark on the chrono and climbs. All thru the espoirs.


'just sayin.

when everyone was chargin', Tommy was the better athlete. If Tommy is still allowed to go head to head, he is a winner in July.

'just sayin.

Dear Wiggo, sounds legit, is legit.

I can see Dekker just shaking his head during July and having a tragic-comic chuckle at the absurdity.

no value judgements. And dont stand on my dog.

 

[blackcat]

Has floyd been upset with me? sure. but so has my wife, son, and dog

oh, a tour press corps stood on yur hund too. i fell ya pain jv. i feel your pain