JV talks, sort of

[blackcat]

Considering that Canc still got away from him in the end, it's obvious that Garmin's only chance was JVS. Hushovd would have a point in crying over the team's tactics that day if he had followed Canc all the way and outsprinted him, but he didn't.

der giraffe. my nickname. JVS is der girafffe

 

[blackcat]

True, and probably why Thor was so well, un-God of Thunder like, about his time with the team (along with the bonus issue).

big-norske, thor-smash

= thor whinge i aint paid enuff

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Was Nuyens hired as a team leader or dom? Coz I am pretty sure if not the former then he wasn't being paid squat and regardless, calling him a waste of budget is anything but benign. It's insulting.

But why do we even care about the personal relationship between a DS and his riders?

Or why not care about the relationships of ALL DSs and their riders?

Just because they aren't on twitter?

 

[sniper]

(First, I'll say I didn't read the conversation with @atpgt.)

In racing, the commodity is performance. It is tied to a rider in a personal way, but it is the product of the sport. It needs to be separated from personality in the operation of the sport.

There is a way to say "You were a waste of budget" and make it a personal attack. There is also a way to say "You were a waste of budget" and make it a business discussion.

I didn't read the conversation. But that comment by itself, a team manager talking about their budget, is in the apersonal category. (If he said immediately before that Nueyens was a needy little snot that the underperformed out of spite, or whatever, then the conversation would obviously be personal).

you don't need the conversation to see it was an insult.
he said Nuyens was "the biggest mistake" he ever made adding "waste of budget" between brackets.
Nothing ambiguous about that.
Full on deliberate public insult.
As you rightfully said a few pages back, it's primary school stuff from JV.

I don't think guys like Riis, Bruyneel and other managers supposedly belonging to cycling's axis of evil would ever sink so low in how they communicate with or publicly speak about (ex)riders.

And then Vaughters' other tweet suggesting Nuyens is a "whiney little baby crying to the media".
You couldn't make it up.
This guy makes Lance and Bruyneel look sympathetic and humble.

 

[blackcat]

But why do we even care about the personal relationship between a DS and his riders?

Or why not care about the relationships of ALL DSs and their riders?

Just because they aren't on twitter?

cos JV engaged us here, and JV has pulled a few pages of 101 Bernays speak from burson marsteller

he tried to play the game here, and we had some fun with it.

 

[Benotti69]

But why do we even care about the personal relationship between a DS and his riders?

Or why not care about the relationships of ALL DSs and their riders?

Just because they aren't on twitter?

It is part of the puzzle, innit.

And BC we aint finished having fun wif JV, doyuoknowwhatimean!

 

[IzzyStradlin]

It is part of the puzzle, innit.

And BC we aint finished having fun wif JV, doyuoknowwhatimean!

Kinda harsh punishment for someone that actually tried to engage though...dontyathink?

 

[blackcat]

It is part of the puzzle, innit.

And BC we aint finished having fun wif JV, doyuoknowwhatimean!

we will never be finished having fun with JV.

 

[Benotti69]

Kinda harsh punishment for someone that actually tried to engage though...dontyathink?

JVs a tart and loves it. Worse thing for JV would be no one talking about him.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But why do we even care about the personal relationship between a DS and his riders?

Or why not care about the relationships of ALL DSs and their riders?

Just because they aren't on twitter?

because Jv made it public. not coz he's on twitter. he opened the door to comment by airing it.

because the way riders are treated trumps and encourages the doping, imo. they are treated poorly, without respect. it's revolting. by their own team manager.

a team manager who paints himself as some mighty crusader, but when you scratch the surface you find he's a self absorbed, whiny cry baby who doesn't give a sh!t about any of the people in his employ. breaking rules intended to help those riders, with impunity.

why? coz they didn't perform (enhanced doping motivation) or some other perceived slight.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

because the way riders are treated trumps and encourages the doping, imo. they are treated poorly, without respect. it's revolting. by their own team manager.

Has anybody even seen Trent Lowe lately???

JV WHERE IS THE BODY BURIED????? TELLLL USSSS!!!!!

 

[Ferminal]

In the same thread:

@Vaughters

@atpgt probably because hiring Nick was one of the bigger mistakes (waste of budget) that I have ever made.

lol, hires dopers, expects them to ride clean on his team, then gets angry when they don't perform?

 

[Digger]

Yes telling someone they were a waste of budget is definitely the way towards clean cycling...so when a new rider comes in he won't be thinking god if I don't perform here what will jv do to me on the internet in front of prospective new employers...show me the drugs, I've a mortgage to pay and need a new contract. With all the drivel about things changing, how has it changed so much that contracts are handed out even if you don't perform to the standards required? Obviously it hasn't. It's a results business not a charity. So obviously the requirement or temptation to dope is there in exactly the same way. That's the point jv and others can't escape.
David millar, deservedly not picked for the tour. Based on form. Correct decision. But bottom line, if he was looking to ride another year, look at the motivation he'd have had to dope. In order to get another deal. Risk reward. Super domestique wages against a fraction of these wages...no contest.

 

[sniper]

But why do we even care about the personal relationship between a DS and his riders?

Or why not care about the relationships of ALL DSs and their riders?

why do you even care about doping cycling?
why not care about doping in all sports?

 

[pmcg76]

JV actually talked about this subject before in a podcast with Mike Creed way back, maybe 2013.

Creed was very unhappy at being cut from Slipstream as they were in 2007/08. He wasn't performing and was dropped but felt badly treated. He made some derogatory comment's about the team afterward as well.

Its been a while since I listened to it but Creed asked him directly about it. Basically they discussed how guys who were racing clean felt ****ed when they were dropped even when not performing. They seemed to develop a sense of entitlement. Understandable when many of them were replaced by the likes of VdZ, Dave Z, Ryder etc which made it harder to take for many of them as they knew the score on those guys.

JVs response was more or less, yes he wanted you to race clean but bottom line was he was still running a team, not a charity. He admitted that he could be a ****er but that was part of his job(though he does seem to be very bad at it). Creed was somewhat more understanding having moved into team management himself. There were guys like Frischkorn, Pate, Peterson, Stetina, Howes, Duggan who all kept their places or eventually moved on to other WT teams so it was possible.

Some guys have clearly been treated very poorly, Lucas Eusar was dropped after missing a large part of his final season with a broken leg I think.

I see how people think it encourages doping but I still think it's a catch-22 situation. Tell a guy in Aug/Sep he is going to be cut and he doesn't have many results, then guess what? he is going to need results to get a contract elsewhere. How can he quickly get the form to get results? Doping. How many times have we seen guys pull out an amazing late season run of results? What if the guy gets busted whilst still at Garmin having performed cleanly there until he realised he was being cut.

Can work both ways. The only other alternative is for teams to try and find places for their guys on other teams but how many teams do that? How many of the guys cut(as oppsed to left) from Garmin have gone on to produce better results elsewhere

I think there was a lot more going on between Nuyens and JV than what appeared on twitter. Van Hoff and Dekker were not happy either but he didn't slander them like with Nuyens.

 

[Benotti69]

lol, hires dopers, expects them to ride clean on his team, then gets angry when they don't perform?

Digger expands the above...

Yes telling someone they were a waste of budget is definitely the way towards clean cycling...so when a new rider comes in he won't be thinking god if I don't perform here what will jv do to me on the internet in front of prospective new employers...show me the drugs, I've a mortgage to pay and need a new contract. With all the drivel about things changing, how has it changed so much that contracts are handed out even if you don't perform to the standards required? Obviously it hasn't. It's a results business not a charity. So obviously the requirement or temptation to dope is there in exactly the same way. That's the point jv and others can't escape.
David millar, deservedly not picked for the tour. Based on form. Correct decision. But bottom line, if he was looking to ride another year, look at the motivation he'd have had to dope. In order to get another deal. Risk reward. Super domestique wages against a fraction of these wages...no contest.

JV behaving exactly in the old time manner of no results no contract. That really keeps riders of the juice.

JV not part of any new movement towards a cleaner peloton, JV is old school.

 

[sniper]

JV actually talked about this subject before in a podcast with Mike Creed way back, maybe 2013.

Creed was very unhappy at being cut from Slipstream as they were in 2007/08. He wasn't performing and was dropped but felt badly treated. He made some derogatory comment's about the team afterward as well.

Its been a while since I listened to it but Creed asked him directly about it. Basically they discussed how guys who were racing clean felt ****ed when they were dropped even when not performing. They seemed to develop a sense of entitlement. Understandable when many of them were replaced by the likes of VdZ, Dave Z, Ryder etc which made it harder to take for many of them as they knew the score on those guys.

JVs response was more or less, yes he wanted you to race clean but bottom line was he was still running a team, not a charity. He admitted that he could be a ****er but that was part of his job(though he does seem to be very bad at it). Creed was somewhat more understanding having moved into team management himself. There were guys like Frischkorn, Pate, Peterson, Stetina, Howes, Duggan who all kept their places or eventually moved on to other WT teams so it was possible.

Some guys have clearly been treated very poorly, Lucas Eusar was dropped after missing a large part of his final season with a broken leg I think.

I see how people think it encourages doping but I still think it's a catch-22 situation. Tell a guy in Aug/Sep he is going to be cut and he doesn't have many results, then guess what? he is going to need results to get a contract elsewhere. How can he quickly get the form to get results? Doping. How many times have we seen guys pull out an amazing late season run of results? What if the guy gets busted whilst still at Garmin having performed cleanly there until he realised he was being cut.

Can work both ways. The only other alternative is for teams to try and find places for their guys on other teams but how many teams do that? How many of the guys cut(as oppsed to left) from Garmin have gone on to produce better results elsewhere

I think there was a lot more going on between Nuyens and JV than what appeared on twitter. Van Hoff and Dekker were not happy either but he didn't slander them like with Nuyens.

If jv and his garmin crew hadn't put themselves on this ridiculous moral antidoping high horse there would be no catcrh 22 situation and there would be loads of understanding for all his decisions.

right now JV represents two completely irreconcilable opposites: his alleged antidoping dedication on the one hand, and his actual behavior/decisions and lack of transparency on the other hand.

i think it's called hypocrisy, and in this category JV fully overshadows guys like Riis and Bruyneel, makes them look likeable.

 

[pmcg76]

I think JV would say his mantra is clear.

If you would like to compete clean, we will give you that chance and pay you to do so. If you perform as expected, we will keep you, if not we will let you go. If you feel the need to dope to get results, we don't want you.

If you don't like those options then join some other team.

You guys seem to think that riders join the team thinking they will be kept on indefinitely as long as they ride clean. I highly doubt that.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

lol, hires dopers, expects them to ride clean on his team, then gets angry when they don't perform?

Nuyens has had health problems since joining the Magic Clean Team, breaking his hip for instance, it was even a miracle he came back to cycling in the first place.

Not performing isnt so strange.

But, I do agree with Saint Jona of Vaughters, Nuyens has always been a whiny little ****, yet, as a DS, you dont make such facts public knowledge.

Saint Jona must still be having trouble with his roid rages...

 

[TailWindHome]

Apparently an MBA doesn't teach a manager not to use social media to communicate with your employees

 

[roundabout]

Nuyens has had health problems since joining the Magic Clean Team, breaking his hip for instance, it was even a miracle he came back to cycling in the first place.

Not performing isnt so strange.

But, I do agree with Saint Jona of Vaughters, Nuyens has always been a whiny little ****, yet, as a DS, you dont make such facts public knowledge.

Saint Jona must still be having trouble with his roid rages...

he broke (?) his hip before joining

But apparently not being **** in the Eneco Tour was enough for Vaughters to overpay him

 

[Netserk]

lol, hires dopers, expects them to ride clean on his team, then gets angry when they don't perform?

Yet he doesn't think a single of the riders on his team has made the same decision he made himself on C.A.

 

[roundabout]

Walk away when he couldn't justify his pay without having to dope?

 

[Netserk]

Walk away when he couldn't justify his pay without having to dope?

Wanting to ride clean on a 'clean' team, yet still feeling the pressure for results and using some of the 'leftover hotsauce'.

 

[thehog]

Scriptwriters for Housewives of New Jersey pay attention....