JV talks, sort of

[Zinoviev Letter]

He won the Giro this year. And you're right - he was in the Tour, but crashed out. Still curious why he was put in the Giro if he had the form to win that, then surely he'd be expected to go well at the Tour.

They didn't expect him to win the Giro going in. They expected him to be able to get a top 5, based on the parcours suiting him more than that of the Tour.

 

[argyllflyer]

Hesjedal's Giro success IMO is not that far removed from Wiggins' - a lack of quality in the GC opening it up to someone who might not have won previously. Basso and Scarponi are well and truly past it and Purito's not a climber yet he was in contention up until the last stage for the ITT. De Gendt only got onto the podium as he was allowed the solo run up the Stelvio on stage 20 because he was no overall threat.

There is a lack of top GC riders just now, and the removal of Contador and Froome's illness counting him out of the Giro followed up by his suppressing at the Tour haven't helped in 2012.

Until some of the old timers give it up and allow the younger riders a shot at the GC, we'll have perceived weaker riders winning. Menchov, Evans, Scarponi, Basso - their time as serious GC contenders (i.e. likely future winner) in a GT has passed.

 

[Speedzero]

didn't vaughters defend wiggins in a series of twitts recently?

Don't know, but I think he un-defended him earlier in this thread. Read carefully.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Hesjedal's Giro success IMO is not that far removed from Wiggins' - a lack of quality in the GC opening it up to someone who might not have won previously. Basso and Scarponi are well and truly past it and Purito's not a climber yet he was in contention up until the last stage for the ITT. De Gendt only got onto the podium as he was allowed the solo run up the Stelvio on stage 20 because he was no overall threat.

Purito was 3rd on Anglirú and won the Vuelta GPM in 2005. He's a climber, but he's better suited to the short walls. The steeper it gets, the better for Purito.

Anyway, the main difference between Hesjedal's triumph and Wiggins' is the manner of the victory.

Hesjedal won the race a way that many of us can plausibly believe a clean rider could win the race (regardless of whether competing against clean or dirty riders) - by keeping his powder dry, by making attacks to gain small increments of time when he feels good, by maximising the area where he holds the cards (the ITT, for example). And no doubt he had some help from the competition; Scarponi admitted that they didn't put enough pressure on him when he was having a bad day. Because Hesjedal did have bad days, but a combination of good teamwork, grit and determination and a lack of willingness (or ability) to capitalise on it on the part of the other contenders meant that he was able to limit his losses (sometimes to nothing at all). Hesjedal - and Garmin - raced in a way that is not totally irreconcilable with how we feel (and it is important to note that this is about feeling and opinion) a clean performance in a GT could, or should, look. Hesjedal won by a handful of seconds over a guy he took the jersey off on the final day.

Wiggins, by contrast, has not had a bad day since Anglirú last September. Sky defended the maillot jaune for two weeks without any trouble despite losing one engine in week 1 and having two guys who were barely contributing (Eisel and Cavendish) on that front. They raced according to the template of Banesto and US Postal Service, which is totally irreconcilable with how we feel a clean performance in a GT could, or should, look. Hesjedal won by taking advantage of opportunities; but Wiggins would probably have obliterated the field regardless of who was in it. His superiority over the field was such that it was laughable, as the GC gaps were the biggest in years.

They were very, very different manners of victory.

 

[Speedzero]

They were very, very different manners of victory.

Indeed. I did not see Hesjedahl leading out a sprint train the day before the final ITT. That was the day my incredulity took over.

 

[The Hitch]

Not to mention that Hejsdal doesn't have any suspicious doctors on his team and doesn't follow the template of former dopers.

Wiggins, has Lienders (despite being formerly opposed to having doping doctors in cycling).

And to follow on from Wiggins doing it like postal, Wiggins hardly has an interview where he doesnt claim to get all his inspiration from Lance, and Sky openly boast about being the new postal.

 

[thehog]

Not to mention that Hejsdal doesn't have any suspicious doctors on his team and doesn't follow the template of former dopers.

Huh?

USPS, Phoank, Obscurity, GT winner?

His DS is a confessed doper!

 

[The Hitch]

He won the Giro this year. And you're right - he was in the Tour, but crashed out. Still curious why he was put in the Giro if he had the form to win that, then surely he'd be expected to go well at the Tour.

Giro win>>>>> any thing but win in the TDF.

Even in the olympics, road race and time trial, everytime i heard Ryders name, the words "winner of the Giro" came, even though none of the commentators knew how to pronounce "Giro".

 

[The Hitch]

Huh?

USPS, Phoank, Obscurity, GT winner?

His DS is a confessed doper!

Ryder does not claimi to be replecating Pantani.

 

[DomesticDomestique]

Another thank you to JV. This article really sums up my feelings from the sport and why I want to see retired riders taken down. Anti-doping efforts must be supported 100%! The sentimental portion may have missed some, but to those who sacrificed their life and reached a level where doping was having a significant impact, his sentimental babble was quite poignant.

Also, I think the clinic should be quite happy with the level of respect JV showed to the group as a whole. He thinks highly enough of us in here that he was willing to talk to us before the article ran. Guess it's not the "small echo chamber" some like to think.

 

[sniper]

Don't know, but I think he un-defended him earlier in this thread. Read carefully.

I know he did, after my post.

but yes, JV's response re wiggo was sort of satisfactory.

 

[Maxiton]

Purito was 3rd on Anglirú and won the Vuelta GPM in 2005. He's a climber, but he's better suited to the short walls. The steeper it gets, the better for Purito.

Anyway, the main difference between Hesjedal's triumph and Wiggins' is the manner of the victory.

Hesjedal won the race a way that many of us can plausibly believe a clean rider could win the race (regardless of whether competing against clean or dirty riders) - by keeping his powder dry, by making attacks to gain small increments of time when he feels good, by maximising the area where he holds the cards (the ITT, for example). And no doubt he had some help from the competition; Scarponi admitted that they didn't put enough pressure on him when he was having a bad day. Because Hesjedal did have bad days, but a combination of good teamwork, grit and determination and a lack of willingness (or ability) to capitalise on it on the part of the other contenders meant that he was able to limit his losses (sometimes to nothing at all). Hesjedal - and Garmin - raced in a way that is not totally irreconcilable with how we feel (and it is important to note that this is about feeling and opinion) a clean performance in a GT could, or should, look. Hesjedal won by a handful of seconds over a guy he took the jersey off on the final day.

Wiggins, by contrast, has not had a bad day since Anglirú last September. Sky defended the maillot jaune for two weeks without any trouble despite losing one engine in week 1 and having two guys who were barely contributing (Eisel and Cavendish) on that front. They raced according to the template of Banesto and US Postal Service, which is totally irreconcilable with how we feel a clean performance in a GT could, or should, look. Hesjedal won by taking advantage of opportunities; but Wiggins would probably have obliterated the field regardless of who was in it. His superiority over the field was such that it was laughable, as the GC gaps were the biggest in years.

They were very, very different manners of victory.

When contrasted as you have with Wiggans' victory, Hesjedal's Giro win stands in a much better light. Good for Ryder and Team Garmin, but even worse for Wiggo, and for JV's Wiggo cheerleading .

 

[hiero2]

Huh?

USPS, Phoank, Obscurity, GT winner?

His DS is a confessed doper!

Whoa, hog. Going a little hard there, aren't ya? Ryder hasn't been in obscurity in a long time, unless outside the top 3 is in obscurity. He HAS mostly been just outside that very tippy top.

And this Giro really had none of the tippy-top there, either, unless you count today's Basso in there. So, it was more like Ryder was the "Best of the Rest" - which was still pretty damn good. And his DS is a confessed doper, but also one who has made it a private mission to see sports compete clean.

Edited @ 1450 local, to add this. Thehog, I see your op here:

This is my personal view and nothing else. . .

where you tell us you think JV is chief in charge of doping at Garmin. Ok, no need to tell me that again. I think you are wrong, but it is what it is.

 

[Maxiton]

I know he did, after my post.

but yes, JV's response re wiggo was sort of satisfactory.

How was it satisfactory? He said Wiggo's statement was "out of touch with reality." Hardly a damning, or even definitive, comment - given especially the farcical Tour we just saw.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Whoa, hog. Going a little hard there, aren't ya? Ryder hasn't been in obscurity in a long time, unless outside the top 3 is in obscurity. He HAS mostly been just outside that very tippy top.

I know that I underrated Ryder though, because that 2010 Tour performance notwithstanding, a lot of his good stage racing results were accumulated quietly, and he'd picked up good placements without me ever really noticing he was there, still thinking of him as that outside-bet-for-a-top-10 that won from the break on Velefique because nobody dared attack Valverde until the last 2km.

I can see why people would think of him as having been languishing in obscurity (from a stage racing point of view at least), even though he hasn't been. Many of his best results simply weren't the most memorable so were simply overlooked. Hey, we're not the only ones. Scarponi admitted as much that maybe he and some of the other contenders underestimated him.

 

[the big ring]

Giro win>>>>> any thing but win in the TDF.

For us, him, or the sponsors? Personally I think 5th in the Tour is more valuable for sponsors than the Giro win.

 

[sniper]

How was it satisfactory? He said Wiggo's statement was "out of touch with reality." Hardly a damning, or even definitive, comment - given especially the farcical Tour we just saw.

iirc he said something somewhere upthread that implied he finds Wiggo's results non-credible.
he could have been more explicit, i agree, which is why i said "more or less satisfactory".
and it's still unclear why previously he went to such length to defend wiggo on twitter.
i don't recall JV ever backing up Landis or Tyler on twitter, not even when Lance and UCI started discrediting them.

 

[the big ring]

They were very, very different manners of victory.

Indeed. I did not see Hesjedahl leading out a sprint train the day before the final ITT. That was the day my incredulity took over.

Thank you. I thought the same and was confused with the original claim.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...Hesjedal - and Garmin - raced in a way that is not totally irreconcilable with how we feel (and it is important to note that this is about feeling and opinion) a clean performance in a GT could, or should, look. Hesjedal won by a handful of seconds over a guy he took the jersey off on the final day.

It's more than how we feel, there's 50+ years of performances to compare and in those performances GC leaders definitely had bad and/or weak days over the length of Grand Tours. Ryder H. was not leading out sprint trains.

 

[Speedzero]

How was it satisfactory? He said Wiggo's statement was "out of touch with reality." Hardly a damning, or even definitive, comment - given especially the farcical Tour we just saw.

I freely admit I am reading between the lines. Maybe too much so. But I was thinking of this quote:

While I admire Brad as an athlete, I can tell you he was a nightmare to work with and certainly did not listen to much advice I gave him...beyond "wow, brad, most of your power produced in a 4 minute pursuit is via aerobic metabolism...that's unique...You could be a stage racer"

And that's where Brad and I stopped.

 

[argyllflyer]

They were very, very different manners of victory.

Without getting too embroiled in this, the *only* comparison I was trying to make was field weakness giving a winner perhaps not as strong as previous. Had there been say Froome in the Giro or Contador in the Tour, I don't believe either would have won. Hesjedal as a contender was sneered at before the Giro. Had Liquigas had Nibali instead of Basso, maybe it would have turned out differently. I go back to my point of too many old dogs who have had their day hanging on. See Evans' quote about riding the tour as leader next year He's finished.

The current era is not one of strength when it comes to the GC. What Sky did at the Tour was suffocate the GC but there was no threat to Wiggins except from Froome. Contador wouldn't have (IMO) been beaten as easily.

Clean or not, I don't think Wiggins will win a GT again. Unless another 100k of TT pops in somewhere.

 

[thehog]

I freely admit I am reading between the lines. Maybe too much so. But I was thinking of this quote:

JV knows what’s going on at Sky. He just couldn’t say so when he hadn’t confessed himself. He’s tune as changed in the last couple of days though. JayVee is firmly pointing the finger at Wiggins as one who doesn’t listen and makes statement which are far removed from reality.

 

[D-Queued]

I know that I underrated Ryder though, because that 2010 Tour performance notwithstanding, a lot of his good stage racing results were accumulated quietly, and he'd picked up good placements without me ever really noticing he was there, still thinking of him as that outside-bet-for-a-top-10 that won from the break on Velefique because nobody dared attack Valverde until the last 2km.

I can see why people would think of him as having been languishing in obscurity (from a stage racing point of view at least), even though he hasn't been. Many of his best results simply weren't the most memorable so were simply overlooked. Hey, we're not the only ones. Scarponi admitted as much that maybe he and some of the other contenders underestimated him.

Underrated or no, he dropped a doped-to-the-gills Floyd like a lead weight at the Dauphine just before Floyd's "unbelievable" Tour de France.

Dave.

 

[will10]

Wiggins, by contrast, has not had a bad day since Anglirú last September.

OMG what a ridiculous comment!!!!111




.....he was terrible at Pena Cabarga

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That's as may be, but that was a different time. It's not fair to judge Damiano Cunego today against Damiano Cunego in 2004, when he's all but flat out told us he was juiced to the eyeballs back then (see quotes like "there are general classifications, and there are life's classifications", or "the Damiano who won the Giro no longer exists"). When judging the two GT winning performances of 2012 and their plausibility of being clean, whether Ryder may or may not have done something six years ago is only anecdotal; I'm trying to judge solely on his performances for three weeks in May.

Maybe you have a chaque that Ryder was doping in May. That's ok. However, the contrast was in the manners of victory and how believable they are as clean performances. And really, this does come down to how we feel clean riders can or should be able to ride. Hesjedal's performances were much more in line with those, for me at least, than Wiggins'.