Kimmage, Macur and others on Armstrong

[Benotti69]

Or maybe they are just fans of LA and do not have the same opinion that you have.

I think it is bad to comment on a book that you have not read. It makes your opinion have much less weight no doubt. Flicker if you do have bad eye’s etc. then go ahead and have your son read it to you. I doubt it will crush anyone’s love of cycling (in my opinion).

I will say that I think Kimmage and Walsh are a couple of fish hacks writing for multi colored fish wraps. That does not mean their writing is fiction. They appear to be two fish hacks on the trail of some large catch.

well you have obviously not read their work as fish hacks are not multiple award winners for their writing unlike Kimmage and Walsh. Plenty of fish hacks in pro cycling spewing the omerta time and time again

 

[Benotti69]

When I read Rough Ride, I didn't walk away as a doping alarmist. I walked away feeling really sad for most of the guys who advance far enough to turn pro. It's a VERY tough life. While some view it as cycling Nirvana, Kimmage showed that once money gets involved, it's an entirely different sport from the inside. You won't read Rough Ride and come out angry at the dopers. You'll come out and wonder why the riders don't band together and put an end to the mistreatment they endure at the hands of their employers. They are over-raced, over-trained, over-extended and over-exploited.

and over doped

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...

Just so you can be sure of reading the original unadulterated version get this one from 1990.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rough-Ride...=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294946904&sr=1-7

If you buy the later editions, the upside is that you get the stuff about how his former team mates and the media reacted to the first publication. What's the downside? I haven't read the original version.

 

[D-Queued]

And what about basssons and people like him who can't compete and win because they are not doping. Are you happy with this?

You don't get it. Bassons didn't have what it takes.

He was no miracle. And, he certainly didn't change the business of cycling.

Like, the guy probably actually got paid a rider's salary.

Dave.

 

[bobbins]

When I read Rough Ride, I didn't walk away as a doping alarmist. I walked away feeling really sad for most of the guys who advance far enough to turn pro. It's a VERY tough life. While some view it as cycling Nirvana, Kimmage showed that once money gets involved, it's an entirely different sport from the inside. You won't read Rough Ride and come out angry at the dopers. You'll come out and wonder why the riders don't band together and put an end to the mistreatment they endure at the hands of their employers. They are over-raced, over-trained, over-extended and over-exploited.

How very true - there is little solidarity amongst the riders as a whole. One does wonder why they don't have a strong union but then again I can't see the UCI liking that. If the riders or teams were able to act as one when circumstances required it then they should. Unfortunately this just wouldn't work as the stronger teams would strong-arm the smaller ones. Look at the strikes in the 98 tour! Campaigning against dope controls and more recently Cancallara calling a halt because he was wet and missed his team leader.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

You don't get it. Bassons didn't have what it takes.

He was no miracle. And, he certainly didn't change the business of cycling.

Like, the guy probably actually got paid a rider's salary.

Dave.

How do you know?

What was he when he quit? 25?

 

[ultimobici]

If you buy the later editions, the upside is that you get the stuff about how his former team mates and the media reacted to the first publication. What's the downside? I haven't read the original version.

I wanted to make sure that Flicker got the original unadulterated version, written before Armstrong had crossed the Atlantic.

 

[ultimobici]

You don't get it. Bassons didn't have what it takes.

He was no miracle. And, he certainly didn't change the business of cycling.

Like, the guy probably actually got paid a rider's salary.

Dave.

No he was the only Festina rider who was clean. His team-mates all testified to the fact that he was not on anything. We will never know what he could have been because he was never given a fighting chance to show it.

 

[Big Doopie]

How do you know?

What was he when he quit? 25?

i believe d-q's comment was tongue in cheek.

bassons famously tested on of the best and better than some of the stars at festina camps at the start of the season. however, he was left off the tour team because by then -- since he didn't dip in the sauce -- he couldn't compete.

 

[AngusW]

How do you know?

What was he when he quit? 25?

27 years old

Sorry, ignore that.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

i believe d-q's comment was tongue in cheek.

bassons famously tested on of the best and better than some of the stars at festina camps at the start of the season. however, he was left off the tour team because by then -- since he didn't dip in the sauce -- he couldn't compete.

Cheers. It's hard to know when people are being serious sometimes.

 

[fatandfast]

To Flicker and FatandFast I have a question.......what would you say if Kristin tells all about Lance's doping? Will yee think it's lies?

Dude, you got me all wrong. I think Lance doped. I think the beatdown/ lynch mob thing doesn't work. It's all just grassy knolls. The sources are so old and mishandled that trying to convict him when the agencies paid to do it don't care is bizarre. RR or another posted that Lance is a drop out..even the more reason to admire how he can handle decisions that would stump most everybody. I see it as people are mad that he came and went without getting popped. The furor that comes out is strange to observe..like the guy talking to the CHP while cars fly by at 85 and the guy just over and over says why me? look how fast that guy is going!!just outraged that he has been singled out for a negative. LA looks like he might just make it through in an OJ/Al Capone kind of way and the people that just want him guilty of something will take anything..selling bikes on ebay or tax problems. If cycling purity or justice is what all these dogs are after they are chasing the wrong bone..he is almost done w cycling and the UCI has offered him a happy hand everywhere he goes. I watch life turning into twitter and it plays to LA in every way. The extensive findings have to be boiled down to 140 somethings for anybody to care. Whoever wrote that Lance admitted to doping while at a press conf in AU is just helping his cause.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Well I don't really need to read Pauls' Rough Ride book. I can read the faces of Maertens, Goodefroot, Coppi, Plaenkert, Merckx, De Vlaemink Roger and Eric, Zoetemelk, Sven Nys etc. Why would I read what I do not know already?

All of whom`s careers were over before Kimmage was a pro.

 

[MacRoadie]

All of whom`s careers were over before Kimmage was a pro.

That would be Kimmage, Paul and Walsh, David...

 

[Darryl Webster]

How very true - there is little solidarity amongst the riders as a whole. One does wonder why they don't have a strong union but then again I can't see the UCI liking that. If the riders or teams were able to act as one when circumstances required it then they should. Unfortunately this just wouldn't work as the stronger teams would strong-arm the smaller ones. Look at the strikes in the 98 tour! Campaigning against dope controls and more recently Cancallara calling a halt because he was wet and missed his team leader.

The competition for team places and the lack of any job security make the peloton a very difficult place to trust anyone and there is very little unity and you take people at face value at your peril.
Truely horrible.

 

[Mambo95]

All of whom`s careers were over before Kimmage was a pro.

As an aside Darryl, you must have know Kimmage back in the day. What were impressions of the man back then?


(Note: If you didn't like him, then that doesn't make you a LA fanboy, as some here will think. It was pre-LA after all)

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...If cycling purity or justice is what all these dogs are after they are chasing the wrong bone..he is almost done w cycling and the UCI has offered him a happy hand everywhere he goes.

What bone is Kimmage chasing? He wasn't chasing Armstrong too hard from 1999 to 2005.

It was Armstrong that said about Landis, "It's our word against his word, I like our word. We like our credibility." But what if a US court decides that it likes Landis's credibility? Where does that leave the UCI?

My guess is that that's the bone that Kimmage is happily digging for. And good luck to him.

 

[D-Queued]

Cheers. It's hard to know when people are being serious sometimes.

Sorry. When you put out a whopper reflecting on the latest lie (didn't get paid), you have to try and do it with a straight face. Adding smilies cheapens it - but can be misleading without.

Dude, you got me all wrong. I think Lance doped. I think the beatdown/ lynch mob thing doesn't work. It's all just grassy knolls. The sources are so old and mishandled that trying to convict him when the agencies paid to do it don't care is bizarre.
...

No, you are way off base there.

You see, Kimmage was wrong. Lance isn't a cancer after all. RR was right. Lance is Herpes.

Just like the latest whopper that has been confirmed by the UCI, Lance is the gift that keeps on giving. Whoa baby, look what we hooked this time!

The notion that Lance is selfless has me ROTFLMAO. But, you just cannot underestimate the guy.

Lance can only hope his case is terminal so that it will come to an end at some point.

But, this is pure gold forever. He can't help himself, and we can kick back and enjoy.

Dave.

 

[BotanyBay]

But, this is pure gold forever. He can't help himself, and we can kick back and enjoy.

Dave.

PURE gold, Dave.

 

[petethedrummer]

bassons famously tested on of the best and better than some of the stars at festina camps at the start of the season. however, he was left off the tour team because by then -- since he didn't dip in the sauce -- he couldn't compete.

IIRC from his book: His VO2 max was 85, similar to Bernard Hinault. At his first mountain training camp with Festina he was the only one who could keep pace with Richard Virenque, they dropped the rest of the team. One of his team mates who had a VO2 max of around 65 took EPO and achieved a 91 when tested a few months later, he didn't name the teammate.

When given a legitimate cortisone injection for knee pain as an amateur he refused to race as he felt stronger around his normal training routes.

 

[flicker]

Yes, Lance is guilty. There I said it. Guilty of not outing all the other dopers in cycling. I apologized to Beth last night on this thread. History.

I do not care if everyone here wants to burn a witch named Lance.

Maybe I am the ship that arrived to late to save a drowning witch.

 

[flicker]

For Mr. Kimmage, this is true class. I am not advocating doping but of course art and class beats being a newspaper clipping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjDmX9Tkss&feature=related

My son said NICO is from another country.

 

[Darryl Webster]

As an aside Darryl, you must have know Kimmage back in the day. What were impressions of the man back then?


(Note: If you didn't like him, then that doesn't make you a LA fanboy, as some here will think. It was pre-LA after all)

I didnt race many of the same events as Kimmage but my impression was of a gutsy rider who gave his best but didnt quite have the bit extra for a reguler winner but could , on sheer perserverance , place very well in some very big races. I`d have descibed as more an introvert than extrovert and think, much the same as I did myself " robbed" of a more lucrative and succesful pro career , not nescercerily from becoming a "big hitter" but most certainly from haveing healthy careers duration wise.
I doupt he turned pro expecting everything to be above board , I know I didnt, but the shock and suprise of just how far down the food chain and leval of pro rider some form of doping was being used was a major dissapointment.
A crappy 1 hour Uk Criterium didnt ( well bloody well shouldnt) require any dope to get round yet it was in use. No uk domestic field race I ever rode did I feel doping was reason I hadnt won but I suspect that may well have been my naivity.
To me it was pathetic and what I realy took away from it was that for many pro`s taking there ( legitimit) training etc more proffesionaly would have been a better step.
Rather like in the film I watched this evening, Serpico, about NewYork police curruption, when it became clear that Serpico wouldnt be on "the take " his cards were marked.
To some degree I think that happened for me..and maybe for Paul to..though Paul admits to some usage.
Never having doped I dont have the experience to honestly know the gains but just on understanding the science Im a 100% certain EPO took PEDS to a leval were a non doper had zero chance overall in a GT.

 

[flicker]

I watch cycling for other reasons as it brings me to songs like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryyzMPdZQVM&feature=related

 

[flicker]

It isn't a perfect world but if you listen to this song, you will realize the beauty of life, written by Jackson Browne age 16.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_z_UEuEMAo&feature=related