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andy1234 said:
Dr. Maserati said:
Berzin said:
This is a topic that I've wanted to address for some time. No need for another thread since it has become part of this one on several posts.nowhereman said:
)Digger said:
andy1234 said:
Granville57 said:This is a topic that I've wanted to address for some time. No need for another thread since it has become part of this one on several posts.
There has been a tremendous amount of venom cast toward Contador, and long before the "positive" test came to light. Not on this thread specifically, but on other threads here, and most certainly on other sites altogether. I would submit that there is one primary reason for the deep-seated hatred towards Contador: That is the narrative that was established by one particular, vindictive and sociopathic Texan before the 2009 TdF had even began.
Why is Contador seen as "the bad guy"? Not because of doping related issues. The vitriol was flowing quite easily long before that. The daggers had already, perhaps even skillfully, been sharpened and sheathed, by that master bladesmith himself, with the hope of such an excuse to withdraw them.
We had LA, very publicly (his interview with Paul Sherwen prior to the 2009 TDU comes to mind) state that he was fully prepared to be "the world's best domestique" if Contador proved to be "the stronger rider." "I mean, talk about tarnishing your legacy!" he so transparently offered. Suggesting that to do anything other than support the most likely winner would violate some deeply held "code" among the ranks.
And yet he did everything in his power to disrupt and subvert Contador's own ambitions for victory. How dare he attempt to win a second TdF when StrongArm was trying to win his eighth! Contador rode a better prologue, but that wasn't enough. As soon as LA had to chance to get the best of Contador in the crosswinds, he did. Was that a sign of "looking out for your teammates"? Because, ya' know, there's no "I" in team. Funny, there's no "I" in "Lance" either, and yet...
The narrative was set: Contador was there only to spoil the party for StrongArm. How dare he?! We all know how cordial StrongArm would've been if Indurain had somehow come barging into the USPS team for another run at the podium in 2000.
What a joke. Contador (cheater or not, this is not my point) had won the Tour in 2007 under less than ideal circumstances (Rasmussen's late-race withdrawal). He then suffered the indignity of not being invited in 2008, only to return in 2009 to finally secure a win under his owner ability (enhanced or not). But then along comes StrongArm.
Most of the team, and--disgustingly so--the director as well, all turned on Contador. Much of the public blindly and obediently grabbed the torches. Contador was a bad man!
AC was put into impossible situations. Regardless of what contaminants may have been flowing through his veins in 2009 (maybe none, how would I know?) I couldn't but respect the guy for dealing with all that stress, and the difficulties of the situation, and still achieving his goal. He was turned on, by his own team! It was repulsive to watch and none the less to remember, even now.
StrongArm gave us this half-baked, low-budget-video return to the sport. The man who had previously and oh-so-proudly proclaimed to be "the first American, on and American sponsored team, on an American made bike" to win the TdF. He was now making his epic return to...team Borat? (No national disparaging is meant by that. Rather, it reflects the very sad fact that I had encountered more than one person who, prior to "2.0" believed Kazakhstan to be nothing more than an imagined and make-believe country for the purposes of that movie only.
StrongArm's return was bewildering to most at the time. How was Contador supposed to have taken the news? It was a horribly orchestrated resurrection that left no room for the practical details to be sorted out. "Here I come! Get out of my way!"
This is what seems to have been lost in the turmoil. Contador was painted as "bad" by the LA mafia, and the narrative only magnified every single thing that Contador has done, on or off the bike. LA also took full advantage of the fact that Contador is unable to properly defend himself to the English speaking press/public. How "worldly" of LA.
If anyone need look any further to get a glimpse of StrongArm's true character, then I can't help you (to coin a phrase). He was set on taking down Contador in any way he could. Funny as to how little StrongArm has had to say about the "positive" test, besides the occasional snide remark. Are we to believe that yet another rider who was at the peak of their abilities would be once again sharing the podium with a clean StrongArm, this time fresh off retirement?
(I fully realize that this is not an LA thread, but the above topic was raised by others, and the connections are self-evident.)
Granville57 said:
flicker said:
Francois the Postman said:The question was: "why not at the time?". Because he had no keen desire to rock the boat whilst he was in it either?
I think that isn't the whole answer, but it certainly will be part of it.
The real confusing thing in this discussion here is that dope at the time was pretty common place as well, and breaking news of yet another high-flyer testing positive after the event was not that uncommon either.
But "positives" were seen and dealt with very differently then. Slap on the wrists, a fine, a few weeks or months in the sin-bin, maybe a rider would not be welcome the year after for the same race. But that was pretty much it. It wasn't nearly as dramatic as this, except when folk died from it, then it stirred the discussion for a while.
But we honoured them with monuments, and those riders are still seen as heroes we salute with respect, legends who paid the ultimate price in the pursuit of their sport. We don't treat them as dirty little "good riddance" cheats that we now have embraced as the appropriate response.
Partly, of-course, because dope wasn't so all-powerful as it is now. Some of it wasn't even illegal. I think the public got that what was used and around at the time, at most helped getting a result, not ruled the results table.
The big thing about Festina was the sheer scale, organisation, and race-altering influence it had. That drugs had become that good was the eye-opener for many. Not that there were drugs, or how wide-spread they were.
The reason Kimmage wasn't making a big stink is probably because most folk riding AND on the sidelines didn't see it as that big a problem. Not knowing where we would end up now. Still, he didn't take responsibility for his environment whilst riding. Kids in the peleton now pay the price. [*]
If there is one lesson for the current riders, that is it. "Good riddance" is a sideshow. And in my eyes, a distraction. I think it prologues the notion that these guys are on the outside and should remain there. It is the wrong fight. It helps the UCI to keep its image clean and maintain the myth that it is a rider problem. It also hurts some riders who are quite rightly asking why them, and not others? How is that for campaigning?
[*] The real problem might well be, from a rider pov, that some probably don't really mind as long as the chance of getting away with it is stacked in your favour, especially if it is that common place as we think it is - 3000k over an insane amount of mountains as well, something we demand as fans, is a lot easier to swallow after swallowing.
sniper said:
Granville57 said:This is a topic that I've wanted to address for some time. No need for another thread since it has become part of this one on several posts.
There has been a tremendous amount of venom cast toward Contador, and long before the "positive" test came to light. Not on this thread specifically, but on other threads here, and most certainly on other sites altogether. I would submit that there is one primary reason for the deep-seated hatred towards Contador: That is the narrative that was established by one particular, vindictive and sociopathic Texan before the 2009 TdF had even began.
Why is Contador seen as "the bad guy"? Not because of doping related issues. The vitriol was flowing quite easily long before that. The daggers had already, perhaps even skillfully, been sharpened and sheathed, by that master bladesmith himself, with the hope of such an excuse to withdraw them.
We had LA, very publicly (his interview with Paul Sherwen prior to the 2009 TDU comes to mind) state that he was fully prepared to be "the world's best domestique" if Contador proved to be "the stronger rider." "I mean, talk about tarnishing your legacy!" he so transparently offered. Suggesting that to do anything other than support the most likely winner would violate some deeply held "code" among the ranks.
And yet he did everything in his power to disrupt and subvert Contador's own ambitions for victory. How dare he attempt to win a second TdF when StrongArm was trying to win his eighth! Contador rode a better prologue, but that wasn't enough. As soon as LA had to chance to get the best of Contador in the crosswinds, he did. Was that a sign of "looking out for your teammates"? Because, ya' know, there's no "I" in team. Funny, there's no "I" in "Lance" either, and yet...
The narrative was set: Contador was there only to spoil the party for StrongArm. How dare he?! We all know how cordial StrongArm would've been if Indurain had somehow come barging into the USPS team for another run at the podium in 2000.
What a joke. Contador (cheater or not, this is not my point) had won the Tour in 2007 under less than ideal circumstances (Rasmussen's late-race withdrawal). He then suffered the indignity of not being invited in 2008, only to return in 2009 to finally secure a win under his owner ability (enhanced or not). But then along comes StrongArm.
Most of the team, and--disgustingly so--the director as well, all turned on Contador. Much of the public blindly and obediently grabbed the torches. Contador was a bad man!
AC was put into impossible situations. Regardless of what contaminants may have been flowing through his veins in 2009 (maybe none, how would I know?) I couldn't but respect the guy for dealing with all that stress, and the difficulties of the situation, and still achieving his goal. He was turned on, by his own team! It was repulsive to watch and none the less to remember, even now.
StrongArm gave us this half-baked, low-budget-video return to the sport. The man who had previously and oh-so-proudly proclaimed to be "the first American, on and American sponsored team, on an American made bike" to win the TdF. He was now making his epic return to...team Borat? (No national disparaging is meant by that. Rather, it reflects the very sad fact that I had encountered more than one person who, prior to "2.0" believed Kazakhstan to be nothing more than an imagined and make-believe country for the purposes of that movie only.
StrongArm's return was bewildering to most at the time. How was Contador supposed to have taken the news? It was a horribly orchestrated resurrection that left no room for the practical details to be sorted out. "Here I come! Get out of my way!"
This is what seems to have been lost in the turmoil. Contador was painted as "bad" by the LA mafia, and the narrative only magnified every single thing that Contador has done, on or off the bike. LA also took full advantage of the fact that Contador is unable to properly defend himself to the English speaking press/public. How "worldly" of LA.
If anyone need look any further to get a glimpse of StrongArm's true character, then I can't help you (to coin a phrase). He was set on taking down Contador in any way he could. Funny as to how little StrongArm has had to say about the "positive" test, besides the occasional snide remark. Are we to believe that yet another rider who was at the peak of their abilities would be once again sharing the podium with a clean StrongArm, this time fresh off retirement?
(I fully realize that this is not an LA thread, but the above topic was raised by others, and the connections are self-evident.)
Granville57 said:I wasn't pointing to you, or even this forum specifically, as much as referring to the public opinion that seems to have formed. We are in complete agreement when it comes to Kimmage. He is taking his own stand, for his own reasons, to be sure. I suppose the relevancy of my perspective to Kimmage's anger is that it easily fans the flames for those who hate Contador without any rational perspective. I think many people just find it convenient to cast the anti-hero status without recognizing how a great deal of the negative sentiments towards AC originally found their footing.
Personally, I was suspicious when he was trading shots with Rasmussen in 2007. But that's another story
rhubroma said:
Yes, and no. Yes, there was indeed a lot of venom sent his way by Armstrong and his supporters, no doubt. Alberto was clearly made out to be the bad guy. We remember it well.Granville57 said:
Benotti69 said:
Absolutely not. Armstrong's behaviour during the 2009 Tour de France only made Contador appear classy and professional by comparison. This more than most sites is a place where Armstrong's word is not treated as gospel. Sure, there is anger towards Contador. That's hardly surprising - he is dominating Grand Tours, there was much suspicion about him being a doper prior to his positive, he has been caught with a banned substance in his system, and he rolled out another in a long line of lame excuses while pointing the finger at the testing system. If you're looking for a source of the 'venom', I'd suggest you look there rather than attributing it to the pathetic and desperate acts that Armstrong pulled 18 months ago.Granville57 said:
pedaling squares said:
Granville57 said:
Nearly said:
Granville57 said:
That's a bad sign. But if and when I do, I'll get back to you.you're kidding yourself. there is no evidence of clenbuterol being used as a meat additive in spain, where it has long been banned. let's look at the probability:131313 said:
delbified said:
sniper said:
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