Kimmage on Wiggins, Sky

[thrawn]

Other than those who are trying to catch dopers, the only people that need to know how it works are dopers though surely?

Or you know, clean teams trying to make sure their riders aren't doing anything dodgy.

 

[thehog]

Does the bloodpassport not take into account altitude and sickness?

Does Bilharzia eat red blood cells though?

If it does how would it effect the passport?

I would be more worried about a cyclist who knew about all the intracies of the blood passport, because to dope they (or whoever was helping them) would have to know these things.

According to Froome/Walsh it eats blood cells even though it doesn't.

That's why Kimmage asked the question in relation to his passport. He trapped Froome in the headlights thus the Dawg had to pretend he's never seen his bio.

And to think Froome actually asked the UCI to "check for everything" surely he'd look at his passport readings?

 

[Energy Starr]

'I've cut back on carbs completely'

How is that even possible with the amount of training they do?

That's what I was thinking....I get in 250 to 350 miles on good weeks. I tried the low carb thing and it definitely didn't work for me (at all). Not that everyone is the same but I can't imagine trying it on his ride schedule.

 

[thehog]

That's what I was thinking....I get in 250 to 350 miles on good weeks. I tried the low carb thing and it definitely didn't work for me (at all). Not that everyone is the same but I can't imagine trying it on his ride schedule.

If only Robert Atkins was alive today! He'd finally see the fruition in his studies!

 

[del1962]

According to Froome/Walsh it eats blood cells even though it doesn't.

That's why Kimmage asked the question in relation to his passport. He trapped Froome in the headlights thus the Dawg had to pretend he's never seen his bio.

And to think Froome actually asked the UCI to "check for everything" surely he'd look at his passport readings?

Nah, I would expect the medical experts to do the checking, not me.

 

[Merckx index]

If you thought you were not at risk for some form of cancer, but were required to be screened for it, wouldn’t you want to know how the test worked?

Don’t say, oh, but it’s possible I could have cancer even if I’m not a risk for it. It’s also possible to have a suspicious passport even if you’re not blood doping.

But it goes beyond that. The biopassport is not like some conventional drug test, that just asks whether or not you have a certain substance in your body that shouldn’t be there. It’s effectively a measure of your health. The information is potentially very useful even if it were not used as an indication of doping. If I were an elite rider, I would want to know about any fluctuations in my hematocrit, retics, etc., even if they were not at all indicative of doping.

Even conventional doping tests can be useful in this sense. Think Armstrong and how his cancer was missed.

Does the bloodpassport not take into account altitude and sickness?

It tries to. That's the point. It could be an early warning sign that something's amiss, nothing to do with doping.

Does Bilharzia eat red blood cells though? If it does how would it effect the passport?

The worms consume the cells, but generally not enough to affect HT. The problem is the eggs release proteins that inactivate hemoglobin. So the red cells lose their ability to carry oxygen. The resulting change in HT/Hb should trigger a change in the passport, if it's enough to affect performance.

I would be more worried about a cyclist who knew about all the intracies of the blood passport, because to dope they (or whoever was helping them) would have to know these things.

Which might be why riders feign ignorance of these things. LA did much the same thing with regard to EPO, saying he didn't know if it was a blood test or urine test.

There is nothing wrong with knowing how these tests work. If I were tested for drugs as part of my job, even though I knew I never took these drugs, I would make it my business to know how the test worked. It's just being aware of factors that involve your existence.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Given he has to record his whereabouts information in ADAMs, unless someone is entering it for him, every time he logs in he would see a link to his recent test results:

You can see the link there, quite prominent in an otherwise practically empty screen.

When you click on that link you see a list of your most recent tests as so:

I find it incredibly hard to believe that someone logging in to this system would never click on the "my recent tests" link and check out their results.

Natural curiosity is a basic attribute of human beings and aliens alike.

 

[mrhender]

CF: And I mean, people with really low VO2s have been amazing bike riders. And people with high VOs have been useless bike riders, so its not a measure the team uses. I’ve definitely never done a VO2 max test with the team.

------------------------------------------------
Why is this something Team Marginal Gains do not use?
They have a guy who happens to suffer from asthma and use inhalers while racing and they don't care about his VO2 max, really?

Anyone knows of other teams refusing to work with this?

From :http://www.preventdisease.com/news/articles/vo2_max_what_is_it.shtml

Exercise physiologists define VO2 max as your maximal rate of oxygen consumption. It is a measure of your capacity to generate the energy required for endurance activities and is one of the most important factors determining your ability to exercise for longer than four to five minutes. Improving your VO2 max by 10 percent without changing any other performance factors can take more than a minute off your 5k time

Ahh now I got it.. It's not marginal gains, it's huge gains..
Thats why the don't work with this..

 

[thehog]

Good work!

Total utter BS from the Frounds. Maybe Leinders enters the details for him?

 

[Energy Starr]

My mouth was a bit open when reading about the Barlo injections..it reminded me of the US olympics in '84 when the 'coaches' were injecting B-vitamins and such...
and Froome just said they 'explained it' and he never gave it another thought.

Really???

THIS! Many people seem to be ignoring that he flat out admitted in this interview that he doped/dopes. The ridiculous injections, the prednisone (sp) and the other stuff. Come on people.....seriously. He flat out admitted it!

 

[del1962]

If you thought you were not at risk for some form of cancer, but were required to be screened for it, wouldn’t you want to know how the test worked?

Don’t say, oh, but it’s possible I could have cancer even if I’m not a risk for it. It’s also possible to have a suspicious passport even if you’re not blood doping.

But it goes beyond that. The biopassport is not like some conventional drug test, that just asks whether or not you have a certain substance in your body that shouldn’t be there. It’s effectively a measure of your health. The information is potentially very useful even if it were not used as an indication of doping. If I were an elite rider, I would want to know about any fluctuations in my hematocrit, retics, etc., even if they were not at all indicative of doping.

Even conventional doping tests can be useful in this sense. Think Armstrong and how his cancer was missed.




It tries to. That's the point. It could be an early warning sign that something's amiss, nothing to do with doping.



The worms consume the cells, but generally not enough to affect HT. The problem is the eggs release proteins that inactivate hemoglobin. So the red cells lose their ability to carry oxygen. The resulting change in HT/Hb should trigger a change in the passport, if it's enough to affect performance.



Which might be why riders feign ignorance of these things. LA did much the same thing with regard to EPO, saying he didn't know if it was a blood test or urine test.

There is nothing wrong with knowing how these tests work. If I were tested for drugs as part of my job, even though I knew I never took these drugs, I would make it my business to know how the test worked. It's just being aware of factors that involve your existence.

Thanks for the response, I can see why clean riders might be interested in their passport, though this probably varies from rider to rider dependent on personality, so whether they say they do or don't know about the ABP really tells us little about whether they are doping or not.

 

[thehog]

THIS! Many people seem to be ignoring that he flat out admitted in this interview that he doped/dopes. The ridiculous injections, the prednisone (sp) and the other stuff. Come on people.....seriously. He flat out admitted it!

Very true. But the true believers think that he's clean because he agreed to the interview with Kimmage. And Contador would never do the same.

Botradar is a sight to behold

 

[red_flanders]

Some other thoughts (others have mentioned much of this) upon reading this, aside from being incredulous about how dishonest it comes off:

PK: Richard Freeman (a Team Sky doctor) told David Walsh that your performances had tripped an alarm in his head. He looked at your (blood) profiles and there was no inconsistency. But if you’ve had a parasite attacking your red cells, surely there should be (some inconsistency). Surely that should show up?

CF: I would imagine so. I don’t know what the blood passport looks like. I’ve never looked into it.

I find it hard to believe that someone who has previously claimed that bilharzia is a reason for his lack of performance would not have an idea if this would show up in blood results.

• can anyone confirm he claimed this? I think it's correct but not sure.
• if he did claim this, why would he "imagine" it would show up. I would think it would be a big, obvious change which accounted for a dramatic difference in performance
• I find it hard to believe he doesn't know what the passport looks like. It certainly possible, but it would be very surprising.

MC: I think if there were issues at all, the UCI would have raised it. They’re not going to take it for granted that it was in the media that Chris has had Bilharzia.

• "If" there were an "issue"? I thought bilharzia was the reason he didn't perform early in his career. Would they not know if it was an issue?
• "The UCI would have raised it". To whom? How?
• "take it for granted"? I thought the UCI found it was the story at one point? Is that not correct? I am getting confused.

CF: Logic says your red blood cells would be lower because your haematocrit is being eaten by those parasites. I’d imagine if there were any changes to my normal (profile) it would probably still be within the parameters so . . .

• Do the parasites "eat hematocrit" or affect blood levels in any way? Is there a definitive answer on this?
• Why would he imagine any changes, about which he reports to be totally unaware, would be within parameters?

MC: You definitely weren’t in the advanced stages of Bilharzia.

CF: I was pretty full on.

• Direct contradiction of the story between them right there in person. Remarkable.

MC: But you weren’t in the advanced stages, so it wasn’t necessarily going to be eating that much of (the red cells). But it was definitely affecting your performance.

• Now she's an expert on when and how many blood cells are being attacked at a given time, even though Chris says he was pretty "full on".
• How is a loss of RBC's affecting performance without affecting the blood profile? His profiles have been reported as consistent from Vuelta 2011 on. So it's affecting his performance by attacking RBC's but is not showing up in his blood parameters? Are they serious? This just sounds crazy to me.

CF: Yeah, but I don’t think either one of us is qualified to say exactly what stage of Bilharzia (I was at).

• Interesting and likely true. So how can she be making conclusions about it affecting performance and not affecting profiles. That is detailed, specific information requiring some clear explanation. I would agree it's much more likely neither had any idea, if any of this is even remotely true.

But as far as the blood passport is concerned; I don’t know what it looks like or anything, but I’d imagine if it was outside the parameters questions would have been asked.

• OK, fair enough. I find it hard to believe that this is the case, but a not utterly false-sounding answer either.

PK: You would have no problem with anybody else looking at those profiles?

MC: Sorry?

• Amazing. Classic lie tactic, delay for time.

PK: Would you have a problem with that? Because I know the team were asked about your power data last year during the Tour and released it (to Fred Grappe, a French Sports Performance expert) but the data was from after 2011 I think.

CF: I have training files I’d be able to show from before (2011) or even race files.

• When? Are they passport files? Power files? What are they? Will you be publishing them soon? Would love to see follow up on this.

MC: Do you remember that coach you bumped into last year who did tests on you at Barloworld?

CF: No, that was the doctor. That was Mantovani.

Just amazing stuff.

 

[I Love To Dope]

Surprised nobody is picking up on this part of the interview...

MC: One thing we haven't been very open about is Chris' use of a dream catcher.

CF: Yeah, I've used one ever since I was a kid. People think it's a tribal thing that you see in the US, like a Blair Witch Proj-

MC: What people don't understand is that dream catchers are everywhere. They're not a "Kenya" thing or a horror movie concept. They're a real thing. Lots of guys in the peloton use them.

PK: How do you think this gives you an advantage?

MC: Well, when I met Chris, he had the dream catcher off to the side, and not a lot of people know how to properly use them. They have to be right above the head.

PK: Like a mobile.

MC: Yeah, and this is how you really capture a dream. So when I first met Chris, this is one of the things I changed. The next day I noticed a bunch of crystals had formed on the lines of his dream catcher. I sprinkled them over his eggs in the morning. I dabble in Wiccan so I knew it was safe, and..

PK: So Chris dreams the hardest.

CF: (laughs) I wouldn't say that, but yeah, it definitely it gives me an advantage against some of the other guys.

 

[Energy Starr]

Is Michelle his mother or girlfriend/fiance' whatever?

 

[The Hitch]

Does the bloodpassport not take into account altitude and sickness?

Does Bilharzia eat red blood cells though?

If it does how would it effect the passport?

I would be more worried about a cyclist who knew about all the intracies of the blood passport, because to dope they (or whoever was helping them) would have to know these things.

You took part in the bilharzia discussions. You made snarky remarks.

And you mean to tell me you dont even know if it eats red blood cells. You didn't research? You didn't read the studies people posted?

How can you take part in these discussions if you don't even have the slightest clue about the things being discussed and don't even bother looking them up.

Just insult people, call people trolls abuse the moderators and post smileys.

Yes schistosoma do eat red blood cells. But in miniscule amounts that it has no major effect on hematocrit. Even in extreme cases they can't eat enough red blood cells to make much more than a 1% difference in hematocrit and as froome is not a 10 year old who spends all day all year playing in African lakes, he is highly unlikely to have had extreme schistosomiasis.
Yes schistosoma do cause a significant decrease in hemoglobin which would show up in a blood passport.

Any more questions. Maybe you want someone to explain to you what asthma is so you can look back if any of your posts on that topic made any sense?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is Michelle his mother or girlfriend/fiance' whatever?

fiance .

 

[Energy Starr]

fiance .

Yes, I know. I asked bc she acts like his mommy.

 

[mrhender]

Yes, I know. I asked bc she acts like his mommy.

She's also on webcam at his stem..
Hence the constant looking down..

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I can't get past the synchronicity of this story and Froome's rise from nothing.

A poor guy who earned R4500 a
month loved a successful lady who
earned R25 000 a month,One day the
boy proposed to her and the girl said,
"Hey! Listen, your monthly salary is
my daily hand expenses.How can I be
involved with you? How could you
have thought of that? I can never love
you....So, forget about me & get
engaged to someone else at your
level".But somehow the boy could not
forget her so easily.Sometime - 7
years later, they stumbled into each
other in a shopping mall.The lady
said, "Hey! You! How are you?Now I'm
married and do you know how much
my husband's salary is? R35 000 per
month!Can you believe that? And he is
also very smart." The guy's eyes got
wet with tears on hearing those
words.A few seconds later, her
husband came from a clothing
shopbefore the lady could say a word,
her husband seeing the guy, said, "Sir
you're here?Meet my wife." Then he
said to his wife, “This is my boss, I'm
also one of those working on his R100
million project.And do you know a
fact my dear? My boss loved a lady but
he couldn't win her heart.That's why
he has remained unmarried. How
lucky would that lady have been if she
had married him.These days, who will
love someone that much he said to
his wife. The lady looked in total shock
but couldn't utter a word.Life is so
very short and it's just like a mirror.
You can only see as much as it
reflects. #moral - of d story# don't be
too arrogant and proud of yourself by
looking down on people because
situations change & money cnt buy u
love...all the money in da world is
never enough....when u hav it don't
forget where YOU came from.

 

[Benotti69]

Surprised nobody is picking up on this part of the interview...

This seems to be totally preplanned to tell Kimmage. Cook up something 'voodoo' to tell him, try and convince the public that something simple gives them a psychological advantage!!!

It is nothing. Wonder who the others are in the peloton who use them....

 

[del1962]

yes I am a troll and will make personnel attacks against those who don't agree with my pompous conclusions

Fixed it for you

 

[Journey Man]

CF: I would imagine so. I don’t know what the blood passport looks like. I’ve never looked into it.

I haveam image of the two of them traveling and Cound has the passports, the tickets, the 'blood passport'....


CF: Please can I see the blood passport?! I won't lose it!
MC: No, Christopher! Now stop being such a naughty boy!

 

[red_flanders]

Surprised nobody is picking up on this part of the interview...

Please tell me you made this up.

 

[mrhender]

CF: Yeah, I mean I can’t give a reason as to why I go faster than some of those guys, I can’t. I just know that I do my training and . . . Busting my *** of six hours a day


Fixed that for you Chris
-------------