Kimmage unleashes hell, counter-sues Verbruggen & McQuaid

[D-Queued]

A true cycling fan. Dumped on by a corrupt sport, and coming back for more because the filthy cycling game is the only cycling game in town.

That's the attitude that keeps the UCI afloat.

I don't mean that as a personal attack. I'm guilty of that same thing to some level. It's just that I don't see any way that pro cycling will ever change, and I'm being fatalistic.

My donation did serve a useful purpose because it helped send a message to McDruggen to back off Kimmage.

When this all sorts out, if there is any money missing, Cyclismas ought to make good any missing money. They promoted this thing and they ought to stand behind it. It shouldn't work to blame all the misconduct on a business associate of some sort and abdicate all responsibility (even if the business associate turns out to be the sole cause of any missing money).

Don't take this as being defensive:

I put my money where my mouth is.

I would be more than happy to donate again, even if only 9/10th of my donation made it through and helped cause change.

That would be a far better guarantee of a meaningful contribution than 9/10th of my posts.

Having thousands of posts on this and other cycling forums, yes, I guess I am a cycling fan even if I am NOT a fan of Nein, Phat or Dopestrong.

Dave.

 

[mancsyboy]

Fran Millar, is that you?

No! I ain't nobodies B**CH

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I dont know who is guilty of what if anyone is. If you look at UCIoverlords twitter he is saying there is an explanation. What i am commenting on, are the internet rumours and innuendo about it without the full truth being known. That is what these people are known for

Given the 3 articles published .oin commonly-read cycling websites, your reading comprehension must be suffering if you do not understand what has happened. Also: please point out a single rumour or innuendo. Not buying that at all.

 

[mancsyboy]

Given the 3 articles published .oin commonly-read cycling websites, your reading comprehension must be suffering if you do not understand what has happened. Also: please point out a single rumour or innuendo. Not buying that at all.

There are stories on websites from the point of view for one side which the other side seems to disagree with. This has created rumour that one person has done a bunk with the money. UCI overlord denies this and it is in the hands of lawyers. So at this stage nobody knows WTF has happened and this will fuel more rumours.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There are stories on websites from the point of view for one side which the other side seems to disagree with. This has created rumour that one person has done a bunk with the money. UCI overlord denies this and it is in the hands of lawyers. So at this stage nobody knows WTF has happened and this will fuel more rumours.

Fair enough. It seems pretty straight forward to me - hence my confusion regarding your confusion.

 

[thirteen]

There are stories on websites from the point of view for one side which the other side seems to disagree with. This has created rumour that one person has done a bunk with the money. UCI overlord denies this and it is in the hands of lawyers. So at this stage nobody knows WTF has happened and this will fuel more rumours.

that is Aaron Brown's problem. he refuses to say much of anything to the media. and he is refusing to disclose anything to Lesli, Paul, or either of their lawyers. if he wants his side known, then tell us the story and show us the money.

if Aaron Brown was forthcoming in the first place, none of this would have gone public. the fact that he was not and still is not is what is fuelling the fire. he's the only one who can stop the rumours.

here is a very balanced article on the whole mess: http://road.cc/content/news/82358-mystery-over-whereabouts-paul-kimmage-defense-fund-cash

 

[Navigator]

Lesli Cohen says Aaron Brown never donated to the fund personally.

 

[thirteen]

Lesli Cohen says Aaron Brown never donated to the fund personally.

you should put that in context... both Lesli and Andy did.

(i tried to embed the actual tweet but failed... sorry )

 

[Navigator]

I never donated to the fund. I was always suspicious about handing over lots of money to fairly anonymous twitter personalities. They might be great people, but how the hell would I know, and what difference would it make to the court case anyway? If Kimmage did not libel anybody he would be able to prove it, so wasting hundreds of thousands of people's money seemed unnecessary. The first sign of trouble was when they didn't hand back the money after the case was dropped, and tried to change it into an attack fund.

As we know from Armstrong himself, when someone gets large amounts of money it is a very corruptible force. It can easily happen.

 

[Netserk]

I never donated to the fund. I was always suspicious about handing over lots of money to fairly anonymous twitter personalities. They might be great people, but how the hell would I know, and what difference would it make to the court case anyway? If Kimmage did not libel anybody he would be able to prove it, so wasting hundreds of thousands of people's money seemed unnecessary. The first sign of trouble was when they didn't hand back the money after the case was dropped, and tried to change it into an attack fund.

As we know from Armstrong himself, when someone gets large amounts of money it is a very corruptible force. It can easily happen.

The case wasn't dropped. It was suspended.

 

[thirteen]

I never donated to the fund. I was always suspicious about handing over lots of money to fairly anonymous twitter personalities. They might be great people, but how the hell would I know, and what difference would it make to the court case anyway? If Kimmage did not libel anybody he would be able to prove it, so wasting hundreds of thousands of people's money seemed unnecessary. The first sign of trouble was when they didn't hand back the money after the case was dropped, and tried to change it into an attack fund.

the case was never dropped, merely suspended. it can be started again on a whim. (it costs money to defend anything, even if you are innocent of all charges.)

get your facts right before trashing some very good people. Lesli and Andy are top notch.

 

[Navigator]

the case was never dropped, merely suspended. it can be started again on a whim. (it costs money to defend anything, even if you are innocent of all charges.)

get your facts right before trashing some very good people. Lesli and Andy are top notch.

I didn't trash anybody, of course. But everybody was saying the same thing about Aaron Brown until yesterday, were they not? That's really the issue. Donating large sums of money to guys on twitter is not something I wanted to take part in.

Suspension is the way to drop a case without losing all face. Its inconceivable they would restart it now. The fund managers knew this, which is why they wanted to start diverting funds into an attack cause.

 

[Race Radio]

I am confused

If there is concern about taxes why shuffle the funds around? Why not set up a non-profit? Why transfer $10,000 into a account in Nova Scotia?

 

[thirteen]

I am confused

If there is concern about taxes why shuffle the funds around? Why not set up a non-profit? Why transfer $10,000 into a account in Nova Scotia?

nobody knows but Aaron Brown... and he don't seem to be talking.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

The court system and the law is anything but expedient unless a kidney transplant is hanging in the balance.

So silence does feed speculation, but legal matters are not resolved on twitter or the clinic. It appears that that view is not shared however....

 

[Digger]

I never donated to the fund. I was always suspicious about handing over lots of money to fairly anonymous twitter personalities. They might be great people, but how the hell would I know, and what difference would it make to the court case anyway? If Kimmage did not libel anybody he would be able to prove it, so wasting hundreds of thousands of people's money seemed unnecessary. The first sign of trouble was when they didn't hand back the money after the case was dropped, and tried to change it into an attack fund.

As we know from Armstrong himself, when someone gets large amounts of money it is a very corruptible force. It can easily happen.

And how could he prove it without money to get respresentation?

 

[spetsa]

I am confused

If there is concern about taxes why shuffle the funds around? Why not set up a non-profit? Why transfer $10,000 into a account in Nova Scotia?

This all smells. The claiming of a potential tax liability is BS. You can retroactively claim the start date of a 503 (c) to be up to 27 months prior to the date you file with the IRS.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This all smells. The claiming of a potential tax liability is BS. You can retroactively claim the start date of a 503 (c) to be up to 27 months prior to the date you file with the IRS.

Agreed, but like a situation closer to me, the money part started easily enough, but the more boring part never did. I know it's not an excuse, but that won't be the first time someone saw setting up a legal entity as too much trouble.

And again, on the face of it, I hope the tax liability issue is really all that has happened to some of the funds. This one won't be resolved online. Patience.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I didn't trash anybody, of course.

I was always suspicious about handing over lots of money to fairly anonymous twitter personalities. They might be great people, but how the hell would I know

Yes, you did. Own it.

 

[MarkvW]

One of the first things they tell law students is CHOOSE YOUR PARTNER CAREFULLY. There is a reason for that. General partners are mutual general agents. That means each partner has the ability to legally bind the other. Or, in other words, the ability to make the other person legally responsible for his or her own acts.

Doubtless, this is one reason why Lesli is now trying to sever her business arrangement with Aaron--she needs to terminate her business relationship with him and sever his ability to make her liable for his acts.

It can't be disputed that Cyclismas and its principals induced people to donate money to the Kimmage fund. It now appears that they induced people to donate money to a fund that was VERY laxly managed. If they knew how laxly managed the fund was when they induced people to donate, that's very bad. If they didn't know how the fund was being managed, then why were they inducing people to give money? That's also very bad.

Mods on this forum have already warned me against casting "aspersions" against Lesli and the forum's protected attack dog has rather rudely insulted me for it, but I'm not stating anything legally controversial here.

 

[nevada]

Now we know how hes been funding that stay in Girona ?

 

[D-Queued]

One of the first things they tell law students is CHOOSE YOUR PARTNER CAREFULLY. There is a reason for that. General partners are mutual general agents. That means each partner has the ability to legally bind the other. Or, in other words, the ability to make the other person legally responsible for his or her own acts.

Doubtless, this is why Lesli is now trying to sever her business arrangement with Aaron--she needs to terminate her business relationship with him and sever his ability to make her liable for his acts.

It can't be disputed that Cyclismas and its principals induced people to donate money to the Kimmage fund. It now appears that they induced people to donate money to a fund that was VERY laxly managed. If they knew how laxly managed the fund was when they induced people to donate, that's very bad. If they didn't know how the fund was being managed, then why were they inducing people to give money? That's also very bad.

Mods on this forum have already warned me against casting "aspersions" against Lesli and the forum's protected attack dog has rather rudely insulted me for it, but I'm not stating anything legally controversial here.

Those of us who donated had fair warning when they had trouble setting it up in the first place. Please recall that they had initial trouble even getting it to work. This was not a professional fund-raising effort.

As noted above, if 90% of my money got through then it has been a far more effective action than thousands of my posts here.

Given that my contributions were in the range of a UCI license fee, I would argue that the latter was even more of a waste of money. In fact, I regard the UCI license fee as nothing less than extortion.

Such on-line contribution services are prone to issues like this. There may well be a perfect explanation, but this was done with good intent and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

Dave.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

No one foresaw the out-pour of $upport for kimmage. It is very possible that the oversight in tax obligations stemmed from the fact that the organizers underestimated how much/many people would contribute. Still sloppy, but I don't blame anyone

I'm in a minority, but I am not alarmed by the lack of information given from Brown to the media. I do understand the suspicions, though

I do not know, but could his silence be attributed to the fact that this is now a legal issue? Now that everything is being scrutinized, he is being very selective/cautious and showing deference to speaking within the legal system?

 

[thirteen]

One of the first things they tell law students is CHOOSE YOUR PARTNER CAREFULLY. There is a reason for that. General partners are mutual general agents. That means each partner has the ability to legally bind the other. Or, in other words, the ability to make the other person legally responsible for his or her own acts.

Doubtless, this is why Lesli is now trying to sever her business arrangement with Aaron--she needs to terminate her business relationship with him and sever his ability to make her liable for his acts.

It can't be disputed that Cyclismas and its principals induced people to donate money to the Kimmage fund. It now appears that they induced people to donate money to a fund that was VERY laxly managed. If they knew how laxly managed the fund was when they induced people to donate, that's very bad. If they didn't know how the fund was being managed, then why were they inducing people to give money? That's also very bad.

Mods on this forum have already warned me against casting "aspersions" against Lesli and the forum's protected attack dog has rather rudely insulted me for it, but I'm not stating anything legally controversial here.

excuse me???

i didn't donate to the fund because i was "induced" by Cyclismas principals; nor, it seems, did you:

My donation did serve a useful purpose because it helped send a message to McDruggen to back off Kimmage.

you are so bitter about this all it beggars belief! did...? no, i won't stoop to your level... come on, you've been warned -- cease and desist. but you can't, can you? no, you spend an entire paragraph casting aspersions.

want your your donation back? i'll give it to you. if you would just promise to STFU and get out of this thread.

 

[Race Radio]

As I am confused by this mess I went to the wonderful internet to get some answers.

http://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-501c3-Nonprofit-Organization

Seems pretty simple

'You can retroactively claim the start date of a 503 (c) to be up to 27 months prior to the date you file with the IRS.'