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Kimmage unleashes hell, counter-sues Verbruggen & McQuaid

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Sep 5, 2009
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jackwolf said:
Depends on how badly Armstrong wants that non-disclosure agreement, how much he's willing to pay for it, and how much The Times think they can push it. From a game-theoretical point of view, there's no reason to believe they'll settle. Same thing goes for any other lawsuit.

Armstrong is in no bargaining position.

Times will get the settlement set aside in the civil court and have a legal right to recover all costs. As a consequence for the revelation of his perjury Armstrong will then be prosecuted in a criminal court without any involvement or costs to the Times.

As an added bonus to the Times circulation could be lifted through its accessibility to the legal events to inform the public.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Velodude said:
There was sufficient suspicion for SKINS to be caveat emptor to be vigilant to the possibility of being involved supporting a corrupt sport.

Cycling is but one of ten sports sponsored by SKINS.
one of ten sports they said they never sponsored. :rolleyes: skins = naked
 
May 11, 2009
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Velodude said:
Armstrong is in no bargaining position.

Times will get the settlement set aside in the civil court and have a legal right to recover all costs. As a consequence for the revelation of his perjury Armstrong will then be prosecuted in a criminal court without any involvement or costs to the Times.

As an added bonus to the Times circulation could be lifted through its accessibility to the legal events to inform the public.

I think you are over stating the importance of Armstrong outside the sport. Given that Lance has already receded into the background in most sports publications, its doubtful that many organization (SCA being an obvious exception) are willing to spend the time and outlay of expense that is needed to seek what amounts to vengeance.

There is something to be said about moving on when you have clearly won. I think there are some people who will be greatly disappointed that not everyone shares their view that LA should be hunted down and 'made to pay'.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...subpoena-witnesses-including-armstrong_263566

There are some interesting bits of analysis in there, and its worth remembering that a lot of people made a lot of money off of LA during his run.
 

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Fortyninefourteen said:
The first piece of paper that will get slid across the table with this or any 'settlement' discussion will be a robust Non Disclosure Agreement. That will be a non-negociable pre-condition to getting any money from Armstrong. If they want money and not a public vendetta, they will sign and take the cash and offer 'no comment' for the foreseeable future.
Otherwise they will go to trial to recover and that costs money and takes time.

My guess is they will all sign, get the cash they negociate, and clam up.

So no headline news on Armstrong settlements. (sadly)

gree0232 said:
I think you are over stating the importance of Armstrong outside the sport. Given that Lance has already receded into the background in most sports publications, its doubtful that many organization (SCA being an obvious exception) are willing to spend the time and outlay of expense that is needed to seek what amounts to vengeance.

There is something to be said about moving on when you have clearly won. I think there are some people who will be greatly disappointed that not everyone shares their view that LA should be hunted down and 'made to pay'.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...subpoena-witnesses-including-armstrong_263566

There are some interesting bits of analysis in there, and its worth remembering that a lot of people made a lot of money off of LA during his run.
"Vendetta" - "vengeance".

Armstrong fraudulently took money from the Times - recouping that is called justice.
Not that I expect you to see that.
 
May 6, 2010
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Fortyninefourteen said:
The first piece of paper that will get slid across the table with this or any 'settlement' discussion will be a robust Non Disclosure Agreement. That will be a non-negociable pre-condition to getting any money from Armstrong. If they want money and not a public vendetta, they will sign and take the cash and offer 'no comment' for the foreseeable future.
Otherwise they will go to trial to recover and that costs money and takes time.

My guess is they will all sign, get the cash they negociate, and clam up.

So no headline news on Armstrong settlements. (sadly)

Enough with this. Contracts fraudulently entered into have no legal force. Those nondisclosure agreements have no force of law. May as well be toilet paper.
 
Sep 5, 2009
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gree0232 said:
I think you are over stating the importance of Armstrong outside the sport. Given that Lance has already receded into the background in most sports publications, its doubtful that many organization (SCA being an obvious exception) are willing to spend the time and outlay of expense that is needed to seek what amounts to vengeance.

There is something to be said about moving on when you have clearly won. I think there are some people who will be greatly disappointed that not everyone shares their view that LA should be hunted down and 'made to pay'.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...subpoena-witnesses-including-armstrong_263566

There are some interesting bits of analysis in there, and its worth remembering that a lot of people made a lot of money off of LA during his run.

You are pleading to all these "avengers" to show mercy to the unmerciful Armstrong now that the referee is counting him out.

If I was rightly due $800,000 from Armstrong or anybody I would not walk away.

Very wishful thinking on your part.

It is credibly believed that Armstrong was calling the shots for the UCI. They adopted his bullying tactics through law suits against Armstrong foes, Pound, Landis and Kimmage, to silence them.

Now Kimmage has opened up a second front against the UCI in defense and counter attack.

Kimmage (and the Swiss prosecutors) has the opportunity to probe the Armstrong "donations". I expect from the UCI top executives' conduct there were more donations than revealed and those revealed did not make it into the UCI's bank accounts/books.

Armstrong then could be subject to criminal prosecution under US foreign bribery law.
 
Jun 11, 2011
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Animal said:
PERFECT description of your mancrush, LA. In every detail.

He's ****ing now about having to face up to what he's done. Well F**K him!
mancrush? seriously? I have always hated Lance Armstrong, a tri-geek, an arrogant a hole. I have always hated how the media thought he was the end all be all of cycling, but that being said, he is one of the only ones not throwing anybody under the bus to make himself look better.
I am really glad I am not a kid growing up today if it is ok to be a rat, a tattletale. that is not how I was raised, and I am not a criminal, just a real man. I feel sorry for those of you that live in glass houses.
F Lance, F Landis, F Tygart,
Gent 6 is coming up, cycling rules!
 
May 20, 2010
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CobbleStoner said:
mancrush? seriously? I have always hated Lance Armstrong, a tri-geek, an arrogant a hole. I have always hated how the media thought he was the end all be all of cycling, but that being said, he is one of the only ones not throwing anybody under the bus to make himself look better.
I am really glad I am not a kid growing up today if it is ok to be a rat, a tattletale. that is not how I was raised, and I am not a criminal, just a real man. I feel sorry for those of you that live in glass houses.
F Lance, F Landis, F Tygart,
Gent 6 is coming up, cycling rules!

That's true... but he only threw everyone under the bus BEFORE he got caught.
 
May 11, 2009
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Velodude said:
You are pleading to all these "avengers" to show mercy to the unmerciful Armstrong now that the referee is counting him out.

If I was rightly due $800,000 from Armstrong or anybody I would not walk away.

Very wishful thinking on your part.

It is credibly believed that Armstrong was calling the shots for the UCI. They adopted his bullying tactics through law suits against Armstrong foes, Pound, Landis and Kimmage, to silence them.

Now Kimmage has opened up a second front against the UCI in defense and counter attack.

Kimmage (and the Swiss prosecutors) has the opportunity to probe the Armstrong "donations". I expect from the UCI top executives' conduct there were more donations than revealed and those revealed did not make it into the UCI's bank accounts/books.

Armstrong then could be subject to criminal prosecution under US foreign bribery law.

No, what I am saying is there is a point in which the recovery of funds is less about the recovery of funds and more about 'revenge'. There is a lot of time, energy, and even expense involved in recovering funds.

Lance is disgraced. Is there really any point in dragging out the little details any further? That seems to be what many people want, as if having 16 years of being drug through the mud by Armstrong should equate to 16 years of dragging him through the mud in reverse? Except that Lance lost, you won right?

Then there is the reality of the fight, and it is a fight. Like it or not, a lot of people made a lot of money off of LA and those interests will defend themselves.

There is also the actual sport to think about. I realize there are those who really enjoy the saga of WADA vs UCI, UCI vs. Kimmage ... but what the hell has happened to our sport when THAT is the race people are watching and rooting rather than bike races?

There really is little to be gained from attempting to recover the funds at this point, or at least, its up to those who lost it rather than you or I. My caution is against getting emotionally invested in that decision making process. Sometimes, its best to let sleeping dogs lie.

What I fear is that should some think the expense is simply not worth the effort, we will see a repeat of WADA vs UCI - as in, the Times is part of a conspiracy ... rather than just sick of it. Let it go, Lance was caught.

Do we want clean cycling or revenge?
 
Jul 11, 2009
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gree0232 said:
There is also the actual sport to think about. I realize there are those who really enjoy the saga of WADA vs UCI, UCI vs. Kimmage ... but what the hell has happened to our sport when THAT is the race people are watching and rooting rather than bike races?

You turd. You present this view now, when it is deluded Lance defenders such as yourself that have been instrumental in delaying this day of reckoning for cycling. Why is it taking so long for cycling to get its house in order? Because assclowns like you have been fighting tooth & nail to deny and delay and deny and delay the inevitable. Screw you.
 
Velodude said:
I expect from the UCI top executives' conduct there were more donations than revealed and those revealed did not make it into the UCI's bank accounts/books.

This is where I think it is going and I don't think this is the worst of it. The advent of EPO allows them to pick winners. What if TdF titles have been sold by Pat and Hein?

Even if you think that allegation is as nutty as it sounds, judging by the way Hein and Pat still defend Wonderboy there is something really, really hidden that keeps those terrorists in a standoff.
 

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gree0232 said:
No, what I am saying is there is a point in which the recovery of funds is less about the recovery of funds and more about 'revenge'. There is a lot of time, energy, and even expense involved in recovering funds.
Revenge?
It is not revenge to rightfully seek the money Armstrong deceitfully took form them.
In fact to do anything other than that would mean being a fraudulent bully pays - I am sure you would not want that......

gree0232 said:
Lance is disgraced. Is there really any point in dragging out the little details any further? That seems to be what many people want, as if having 16 years of being drug through the mud by Armstrong should equate to 16 years of dragging him through the mud in reverse? Except that Lance lost, you won right?

Then there is the reality of the fight, and it is a fight. Like it or not, a lot of people made a lot of money off of LA and those interests will defend themselves.

There is also the actual sport to think about. I realize there are those who really enjoy the saga of WADA vs UCI, UCI vs. Kimmage ... but what the hell has happened to our sport when THAT is the race people are watching and rooting rather than bike races?

There really is little to be gained from attempting to recover the funds at this point, or at least, its up to those who lost it rather than you or I. My caution is against getting emotionally invested in that decision making process. Sometimes, its best to let sleeping dogs lie.

What I fear is that should some think the expense is simply not worth the effort, we will see a repeat of WADA vs UCI - as in, the Times is part of a conspiracy ... rather than just sick of it. Let it go, Lance was caught.

Do we want clean cycling or revenge?
The sport.
How does not exposing dopers help "the sport"?

Armstrong is a fraud - and he was aided and abetted by the UCI - if nothing is done against them, then nothing will change.
 
Sep 5, 2009
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gree0232 said:
No, what I am saying is there is a point in which the recovery of funds is less about the recovery of funds and more about 'revenge'. There is a lot of time, energy, and even expense involved in recovering funds.

Lance is disgraced. Is there really any point in dragging out the little details any further? That seems to be what many people want, as if having 16 years of being drug through the mud by Armstrong should equate to 16 years of dragging him through the mud in reverse? Except that Lance lost, you won right?

Then there is the reality of the fight, and it is a fight. Like it or not, a lot of people made a lot of money off of LA and those interests will defend themselves.

There is also the actual sport to think about. I realize there are those who really enjoy the saga of WADA vs UCI, UCI vs. Kimmage ... but what the hell has happened to our sport when THAT is the race people are watching and rooting rather than bike races?

There really is little to be gained from attempting to recover the funds at this point, or at least, its up to those who lost it rather than you or I. My caution is against getting emotionally invested in that decision making process. Sometimes, its best to let sleeping dogs lie.

What I fear is that should some think the expense is simply not worth the effort, we will see a repeat of WADA vs UCI - as in, the Times is part of a conspiracy ... rather than just sick of it. Let it go, Lance was caught.

Do we want clean cycling or revenge?

Instead of posting on cycling forums inanely begging subscribers to back off on villifying Armstrong I suggest you make personal pleas to those potential suitors who have Armstrong's dwindling assets in their cross hairs.

ASO, SCA, Times, Livestrong donors, Floyd Landis, US Department of Justice, IRS, USPS, Nike (?), Trek (?), Oakley (?), gullible and unknowing Tailwind investors to mention a few.
 
May 11, 2009
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autologous said:
You turd. You present this view now, when it is deluded Lance defenders such as yourself that have been instrumental in delaying this day of reckoning for cycling. Why is it taking so long for cycling to get its house in order? Because assclowns like you have been fighting tooth & nail to deny and delay and deny and delay the inevitable. Screw you.

Lets be very clear at what I defended before we launch into another trollish invective.

I admonished the lot of you to stop using press leaks as a method of anti-doping investigation. I extolled the bunch of you to follow the money, as its was the lube that greased the doping wheels so to speak and is impossible to hide in this day and age. Furthermore, in sharp contrast to tell all books, recommended that we use the same tactics that are used to break up other criminal elements that smuggle drugs ... like cartels. You know police action, search warrants, etc. Furthermore, I recommended that we use targeted drug testing based on insider tips that would help us produce evidence rather than innuendo.

The lot of Lance Haters dismissed those suggestions as 'trolling'. And yet, as predicted years ago, those were the tactics that either would or would not produce the goods to prove or exonerate Lance Armstrong.

The public back and forth between the UCI and WADA? Between Pound and McQaid? Right it produced absolutely nothing. The back and forth between Lance and Floyd. Right, absolutely nothing. The lance haters vs. the lance lovers. Right, nichts. Random dudes we have never heard of coming out and lambasting the UCI or someone else? Yep, nada.

But NOW Kimmage vs. McQaid is supposed to accomplish what? THAT will be the thing that finally rides cycling of doping? These public antics have a proven track record of anti-doping success do they?

Or did we just ignore the lesson of 16 years of Lance Hunting, and decide to totally and completely reinforce the past failures for no other reason than to speciously call someone a hypocrite?

Because that is what cycling needs. Not analysis, but further emotional claims and vengeance. We need to eek every penny we can out of LA even if it drains us entirely and accomplishes nothing more vengeance.

What cycling needs is not stability and sound analysis, it needs a great big scarlet V?

Helpful.
 
May 11, 2009
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Velodude said:
Instead of posting on cycling forums inanely begging subscribers to back off on villifying Armstrong I suggest you make personal pleas to those potential suitors who have Armstrong's dwindling assets in their cross hairs.

ASO, SCA, Times, Livestrong donors, Floyd Landis, US Department of Justice, IRS, USPS, Nike (?), Trek (?), Oakley (?), gullible and unknowing Tailwind investors to mention a few.

I suggest that instead of lashing out whenever anyone disagrees with you, you realize that the topic is anti-doping. And it only makes sense that when you recommend a course of action you keep a couple of things in mind.

Purpose: Why are we doing something? Or should we? Who does it benefit? Cycling or ... getting LA - whom we already got? Maybe we should go after Merckx too? That helpful?

Method: How are we going to do it? Have we given it an honest cost benefit analysis? At what point so we hit a position of diminished returns on our efforts? Have we thought through likely countering actions? Attempting, you know, a little a little proactive planning?

Endstate: What is it we desire to achieve? Are we aiming for clean cycling? Stable, exciting racing? Or are we attempting to exact a pound, no pun intended, of flesh? Ergo, the question should be asked, if the Times goes to the expense of recovering its payment, we will have accomplished ... what? If they decide not too? What does that change?

No matter how you skin it, LA is going to remain a very wealthy man. Going after him for 800K is ... pretty much a waste of everyone's time IMO.

There are bigger fish to fry. And when the numbers make that effort worthwhile, as in SCA's case, the calculus changes.

Its worth crunching the numbers and conducting an honest assessment.

Or I suppose we can learn the incorrect lessons of the lance lovers, who spent 16 years whining that everyone who defended LA was a troll and a heathen who did not deserve to live as a human being ... waiting for someone else to do the hard work of actually proving something.

Well, suit yourself, but I have to wonder why you would come to a forum on anti-doping if you don't want to discuss doping?

Again, suing LA to recover funds from a dead case is just a waste of time. Like suing someone to recover a nickle. David Millar makes some interesting points reference the UCI and its increasingly untenable position.

Notice that he does it intelligently, and without calling people incorigable trolls who should not dare to comment in a way that is different than his opinion.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling-was-a-deeply-criminal-business-says-millar

Perhaps we might also learn from old mutton chops himself, who founded a team based on anti-doping, lead the AIGCP, publishes articles in the NYTIMES - which appear to have absolutely no cat calls and innuendo, but appear constructive, learned, and attempt to build consensus in a manner that .. may just produce results. Go figure.

So are David Millar and good old JV trolls? Or just those who notice that their comments and actions appear just SLIGHTLY more beneficial and constructive for cycling than say ... dredging up a dead case to pursue the equivalent of chump change or igniting a white trash WWF match between McQaid and Kimmage?

As fascinating as it may be for some to watch a couple of cape wearing latex encapsulated middle aged fat boys slam each other off the proverbial top rope ... I would prefer that we do things that return the focus to racing.

If the former is what you really want, I suggest Luchador wrestling. After all Luchador wrestling does about as much good for bike racing as the current Kimmage v. McQaid imbroglio is managing to accomplish.

I suppose its keeping a couple of Swiss lawyers and their families from starving to death ... so there is the humanitarian aspect of it all I suppose.
 
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Hugh Januss said:
Jesus, you are so totally clueless. I am not sure you even know what you are really thinking.:rolleyes:

Please stop embarrassing yourself, you are starting to even make me feel sorry for you, and I don't like that feeling.:D

Not as clueless as someone who hasn't figured out how the report function works.

The ignore function works best if you actually use rather than attempting to weaponize it to silence people because our addle-patted twitish mind cannot fathom that your personal angst that people disagree with you ... on a public forum ... apparently gives you the right to constantly harass and generally be a *** to people.

If you have nothing to offer but a mean spirited troll of a comment, then remember what most people's mother teach them when they are like three.

You are not my conscience, nor are you my friend. Use your ignore function and keep your trollish comments away from me please.
 

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gree0232 said:
I suggest that instead of lashing out whenever anyone disagrees with you, you realize that the topic is anti-doping. And it only makes sense that when you recommend a course of action you keep a couple of things in mind.

Purpose: Why are we doing something? Or should we? Who does it benefit? Cycling or ... getting LA - whom we already got? Maybe we should go after Merckx too? That helpful?

Method: How are we going to do it? Have we given it an honest cost benefit analysis? At what point so we hit a position of diminished returns on our efforts? Have we thought through likely countering actions? Attempting, you know, a little a little proactive planning?

Endstate: What is it we desire to achieve? Are we aiming for clean cycling? Stable, exciting racing? Or are we attempting to exact a pound, no pun intended, of flesh? Ergo, the question should be asked, if the Times goes to the expense of recovering its payment, we will have accomplished ... what? If they decide not too? What does that change?

No matter how you skin it, LA is going to remain a very wealthy man. Going after him for 800K is ... pretty much a waste of everyone's time IMO.

There are bigger fish to fry. And when the numbers make that effort worthwhile, as in SCA's case, the calculus changes.

Its worth crunching the numbers and conducting an honest assessment.

Or I suppose we can learn the incorrect lessons of the lance lovers, who spent 16 years whining that everyone who defended LA was a troll and a heathen who did not deserve to live as a human being ... waiting for someone else to do the hard work of actually proving something.

Well, suit yourself, but I have to wonder why you would come to a forum on anti-doping if you don't want to discuss doping?

Again, suing LA to recover funds from a dead case is just a waste of time. Like suing someone to recover a nickle. David Millar makes some interesting points reference the UCI and its increasingly untenable position.

Notice that he does it intelligently, and without calling people incorigable trolls who should not dare to comment in a way that is different than his opinion.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling-was-a-deeply-criminal-business-says-millar

Perhaps we might also learn from old mutton chops himself, who founded a team based on anti-doping, lead the AIGCP, publishes articles in the NYTIMES - which appear to have absolutely no cat calls and innuendo, but appear constructive, learned, and attempt to build consensus in a manner that .. may just produce results. Go figure.

So are David Millar and good old JV trolls? Or just those who notice that their comments and actions appear just SLIGHTLY more beneficial and constructive for cycling than say ... dredging up a dead case to pursue the equivalent of chump change or igniting a white trash WWF match between McQaid and Kimmage?

As fascinating as it may be for some to watch a couple of cape wearing latex encapsulated middle aged fat boys slam each other off the proverbial top rope ... I would prefer that we do things that return the focus to racing.

If the former is what you really want, I suggest Luchador wrestling. After all Luchador wrestling does about as much good for bike racing as the current Kimmage v. McQaid imbroglio is managing to accomplish.

I suppose its keeping a couple of Swiss lawyers and their families from starving to death ... so there is the humanitarian aspect of it all I suppose.

You appear to be deliberately confusing separate issues.

1. Armstrong has been exposed as a fraud - not by trolls or haters - so those that he defrauded are perfectly entitled to recoup that, its called justice.

2. You acknowledge that LA doped for 16 years which he did while giving the UCI some of his ill gotten gains - Kimmages case could expose that corruption, which would be huge for anti-doping.