Klöden

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Aug 6, 2009
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It's a simple parallel to draw-Kloden has been associated with teams that have been accused of ingrained, systematic doping.

And then you have the infamous Dr. Ferrari, who I'm sure still has a professional relationship with the Radio Shack team via Bruyneel.

And just the fact that he's winning races at this point in his career...

He's been to close to too much shady stuff to be clean. Though I enjoy his riding style and like watching him race, I don't root for him, and his victories seem strangely hollow at this point in his sporting life. Joyless even.
 
I wonder who got there first. Hadn't read their piece but posted the same double entendre, earlier.
Perhaps, if he's still leading after the penultimate stage, they can drop in the line:
" Looks like Kloden has it in the bag, again." or something similar.;)
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Berzin said:
And just the fact that he's winning races at this point in his career...
While I don't doubt he's doping... he's 35. While he's on the tail end, that's not too old by cycling standards. Coppi was winning the Giro at 33 and 34 years old, Argentin won La Fleche Wallone at 34, Sean Kelly won the Vuelta at 32 and MSR at 36, Bartoli won Lombardia at 33, Zoetemelk won some big races at 38 (T-A/Worlds) and Amstel Gold at 40.

Guys in their mid-30's getting wins has been pretty constant throughout the history of cycling. Heck, some believe Vino was clean last year winning Liege at 36. There are a lot of guys to add to the "doper" list if simply winning something in your mid-30's qualifies.
 
kurtinsc said:
While I don't doubt he's doping... he's 35. While he's on the tail end, that's not too old by cycling standards. Coppi was winning the Giro at 33 and 34 years old, Argentin won La Fleche Wallone at 34, Sean Kelly won the Vuelta at 32 and MSR at 36, Bartoli won Lombardia at 33, Zoetemelk won some big races at 38 (T-A/Worlds) and Amstel Gold at 40.

Guys in their mid-30's getting wins has been pretty constant throughout the history of cycling. Heck, some believe Vino was clean last year winning Liege at 36. There are a lot of guys to add to the "doper" list if simply winning something in your mid-30's qualifies.

Ah but the difference between all those other guys you listed is that they were always winners, they didnt suddenly improve in their later years. Plus, Argentin winning at 34 is not exactly a good example as he was working with Ferrari at the time.
 
“Perhaps only in 2000 [when he won Paris-Nice] have I gone as well as I’ve done this year,” Klöden admitted afterwards. “It’s thanks to a calm winter, good health and the right training.”

There are the 3 reasons for Klodi's rich vein of form right there. Straight from the horses mouth. So I guess we can close this thread now. :D
 
Dec 7, 2010
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gregrowlerson said:
“Perhaps only in 2000 [when he won Paris-Nice] have I gone as well as I’ve done this year,” Klöden admitted afterwards. “It’s thanks to a calm winter, good health and the right training.”

There are the 3 reasons for Klodi's rich vein of form right there. Straight from the horses mouth. So I guess we can close this thread now. :D
Yeah, nothing like ten years of bad winters to ruin one's form. :D
And clearly, he hadn't been training well since 2000.

I do wonder what may have gotten lost in translation though. Not that I'm buying any of it.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Ah but the difference between all those other guys you listed is that they were always winners, they didnt suddenly improve in their later years. Plus, Argentin winning at 34 is not exactly a good example as he was working with Ferrari at the time.
You could see the fumes coming off Argentin and his Geweiss teammates so that is truly not the example. Kloden could be reaching his peak at 35 for the races he's doing and that's not unheard of. He also had to labor for others on many prior teams and could now have some serious confidence. Three weeks is a different deal and his current form might suggest he'll be past peak for those long races if he ever had that type of form.
 
May 3, 2010
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Granville57 said:
Yeah, nothing like ten years of bad winters to ruin one's form. :D
And clearly, he hadn't been training well since 2000.

I do wonder what may have gotten lost in translation though. Not that I'm buying any of it.
Who knew that a calm winter comes at the point of a needle.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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gregrowlerson said:
“Perhaps only in 2000 [when he won Paris-Nice] have I gone as well as I’ve done this year,” Klöden admitted afterwards. “It’s thanks to a calm winter, good health and the right training.”

There are the 3 reasons for Klodi's rich vein of form right there. Straight from the horses mouth. So I guess we can close this thread now. :D
Actually, all those 3 things comming together is almost unheard of for Köden. Especially the part about good health. Usually he's ill or injured in some kind of way almost all of the time.

What I find funny is how his results make people wonder about his very probable illegal performance enhancing practices. When on form, and that didn't happen very often - because of reasons already mentioned - Klöden always performed very well. Indeed before he actually started winning often this spring the usual question wasn't why he would win a lot of races but why the **** he would not do it. Also he did win races and he had good performances over the last years.
I mean it's funny he actually started sprinting for good results at the age of 35...something which probably has nothing to do with his form.
Also looking at the time trial today and just considering the names involved, who would you naturally think should beat Klöden being in good shape anyway? Even though it was a prologue which suits him just one in a while.
Also, as someone above mentioned, it's not strange to have old cyclist performe very well indeed. There was a legendary french guy for example who actually got on the podium of the Tour at the age of 40 in 1976.


I'm not saying Klödi isn't doped... I'm very much convinced he is as I am of the most of the guy's who are somewhat able to compete for wins... I'm just thinking that the indicators used to determine it are rediculous.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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JPM London said:
Pulled-schmulled... It's commonly accepted that Rabo were asked to pull him voluntarily if they didn't want the whole team to go involuntarily.
by the aso, not uci.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Ah but the difference between all those other guys you listed is that they were always winners, they didnt suddenly improve in their later years. Plus, Argentin winning at 34 is not exactly a good example as he was working with Ferrari at the time.
Well again... I think Kloden dopes (as well as all the others I listed... though older guys doped with much milder stuff).

But using just the "results at his age" argument... is Kloden any different then he ever was?

He had a bad year last year... and many (including myself) thought age had caught him. But in 2009 he was 6th in the Tour (and probably could have finished 3rd if his team had allowed him to), 4th in the tour de suisse, and 3rd in T-A. In 2008 he was 2nd in the Tour de Suisse and won Romandie. In 2007 he won T-A.

Is 2nd in P-N, 1st in Pais Vasco and having a good Trentino really above where he was in 2007-2009?

Again... yes, he's doping. But I don't think he's "upped his game" or anything. This year seems pretty close to his normal performance over the 5-6 years prior to this past year. He finished 2nd in the tour in 2004 and 2006... is he really improving from that in your mind?
 
Mar 8, 2010
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kurtinsc said:
Well again... I think Kloden dopes (as well as all the others I listed... though older guys doped with much milder stuff).

But using just the "results at his age" argument... is Kloden any different then he ever was?

He had a bad year last year... and many (including myself) thought age had caught him. But in 2009 he was 6th in the Tour (and probably could have finished 3rd if his team had allowed him to), 4th in the tour de suisse, and 3rd in T-A. In 2008 he was 2nd in the Tour de Suisse and won Romandie. In 2007 he won T-A.

Is 2nd in P-N, 1st in Pais Vasco and having a good Trentino really above where he was in 2007-2009?

Again... yes, he's doping. But I don't think he's "upped his game" or anything. This year seems pretty close to his normal performance over the 5-6 years prior to this past year. He finished 2nd in the tour in 2004 and 2006... is he really improving from that in your mind?
Thats what I am trying to tell those people since beginning of the thread.
Well, they just ignore it, or me. :D
I even posted Mr-Klödens results from last 7 years.
They just go on like a broken record.
But of course he is doper, too. You don't need to be a genius, or open a thread to come to this conclusion.

Let them just do what they want. Its somehow amusing to see that people open threads as soon as a rider won, who they don't like.

Most important thing is, that professional racing forum has more posts than clinic.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:
Thats what I am trying to tell those people since beginning of the thread.
Well, they just ignore it, or me. :D
I even posted Mr-Klödens results from last 7 years.
They just go on like a broken record.
But of course he is doper, too. You don't need to be a genius, or open a thread to come to this conclusion.

Let them just do what they want. Its somehow amusing to see that people open threads as soon as a rider won, who they don't like.

Most important thing is, that professional racing forum has more posts than clinic.
Not bad. That was nice coherent post, Cobbley. Keep it up.
 
May 3, 2010
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Dose of the PDMs?

I think the point to make is how does Kloden compare to similar riders who are 35 pushing 36. Sastre is clearly on the decline.

Can anyone else think of any riders who were performing this well at this age - or after this many years of top level riding?
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Dose of the PDMs?

I think the point to make is how does Kloden compare to similar riders who are 35 pushing 36. Sastre is clearly on the decline.

Can anyone else think of any riders who were performing this well at this age - or after this many years of top level riding?
Yeah... plenty.

Many are definite or suspected dopers of course... as is Kloden. But there is nothing unique about what he's doing.

Vino had a pretty stellar season last year at 36. Chris Horner had a stellar year last season at 38. Mosquera had a great year last season at 34 or 35.

Going back a little, Bobby Julich was in the top 10 of CQ rankings in 2005 when he was 34. Jens Voigt was in the top 20 of CQ at 35 and 36 in 2006 and 2007. Garzelli was 25th in CQ at 36 in 2009.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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kurtinsc said:
Yeah... plenty.

Many are definite or suspected dopers of course... as is Kloden. But there is nothing unique about what he's doing.

Vino had a pretty stellar season last year at 36. Chris Horner had a stellar year last season at 38. Mosquera had a great year last season at 34 or 35.

Going back a little, Bobby Julich was in the top 10 of CQ rankings in 2005 when he was 34. Jens Voigt was in the top 20 of CQ at 35 and 36 in 2006 and 2007. Garzelli was 25th in CQ at 36 in 2009.
And we will see even more of this, because "medical support", physiotherapys and recovery methods (just to name a few) were improved over years.

People can do their job longer on a good level - like human's life expectancy is rising.
 
May 3, 2010
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kurtinsc said:
Yeah... plenty.

Many are definite or suspected dopers of course... as is Kloden. But there is nothing unique about what he's doing.

Vino had a pretty stellar season last year at 36. Chris Horner had a stellar year last season at 38. Mosquera had a great year last season at 34 or 35.

Garzelli was 25th in CQ at 36 in 2009.
I am not sure Horner, Garzelli, Vino and Mosquera are really the people you want to be pointing to given their reputations.

Your list seems to confirm that the only people who come good past the age of 35 are dopers.
 
kurtinsc said:
Yeah... plenty.

Many are definite or suspected dopers of course... as is Kloden. But there is nothing unique about what he's doing.

Vino had a pretty stellar season last year at 36. Chris Horner had a stellar year last season at 38. Mosquera had a great year last season at 34 or 35.

Going back a little, Bobby Julich was in the top 10 of CQ rankings in 2005 when he was 34. Jens Voigt was in the top 20 of CQ at 35 and 36 in 2006 and 2007. Garzelli was 25th in CQ at 36 in 2009.
Zoetemelk won world championship at age 38 and AGR at age 40. Won tour and Giro at age 34, came 2nd at age 36.
And there have been others who have won GTs at age 34-35 (Gimondi, Magni for instance). Of course, Zoetemelk was doper too, but I doubt it was doping what made his career longer.

Though, I think that there is little doubt about Kloden as doper, age factor alone is not enough. There are other reasons (or additional reasons besides doping) why nowadays careers are longer, money is the first one.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
I am not sure Horner, Garzelli, Vino and Mosquera are really the people you want to be pointing to given their reputations.

Your list seems to confirm that the only people who come good past the age of 35 are dopers.
You don't understand. I believe every cyclist who acomplishes anything of note in a major event is a doper.

I'm saying what Kloden is doing isn't extraordinary as some seem to suggest. Pretty much everyone holds on until somewhere between 33 and 38... when declines hit. I don't think the ones that start failing at 33 are cleaner then the ones who start failing at 38. There isn't some magic number where if you are older than that and successful then you're proven to be a doper.

You're winning cycling events against other dopers... that's proof enough. The age of decline is still genetics in my mind... with a slight chance of having "better stuff".

I thought Kloden had started to decline last year. It appears not... but I don't think he upped his doping regimine this year or took last year off the juice... he just had a bad year on the same level of stuff he has been taking.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
What has he won or placed at this season?
The Tour Méditerranéen. And he wasn't much younger last Vuelta when he won a stage and the KOM competition, on top of being 13th in the GC.

I don't think things are so simple. Age is but one of many factors involved.
 

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