Klöden

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hrotha said:
Nope, you don't get it. Winning or losing ultimately has little to do with it, it's all about having lots of previous history, being in one of the wrong teams, and performing above what's usually expected from you for a long while. I bet few people here thought Klödi was clean last year - unless you count those who thought he didn't want to take the risks associated with a deluxe program, what with the federal investigation and most of RS keeping it low profile (and, again, with him already having a contract for this season). Few people would be inclined to believe Popovych is clean (or, at any rate, clean of his own volition). On the other hand, most people are willing to think that, if there's any clean riders out there, Moncoutié has to be one of them, and he gets very nice results and some important wins.
You're right of course but there's some folk on here for which its true. I've had people tell me on here that Evans winning races is "evidence" of him doping.

Anyway Kloden...hard to believe he's been clean in the past - his team and his public support of Ullrich suggest strongly that he'd have juiced up to .06 at least. Beyond then? We don't know really apart from guesswork but it certainly seems more than possible unfortunately. Which is a shame because I've always liked him as he doesn't seem to have much ego about him and was prepared to play unquestioning second fiddle to Ullrich and then Armstrong/Contador in the TDF when his apparent ability and record suggested he should have had a shot himself.
 
simoni said:
You're right of course but there's some folk on here for which its true. I've had people tell me on here that Evans winning races is "evidence" of him doping
Well, there's a wide cynicism spectrum out there but for the most part it's true that it's not primarily about the results. :p
 
Jul 19, 2009
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I have no doubt that Klöden was heavily juiced until the recent years.
Now under the constraint of biological passport, he is cleaner.
Is he clean? Difficult to say.
Is he cleaner or dirtier than other guys who were/are used to dope? We don't know.

But for sure, some doped riders should sink in the hierarchy with less doping while the cleanest will climb.
 
May 26, 2010
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poupou said:
I have no doubt that Klöden was heavily juiced until the recent years.
Now under the constraint of biological passport, he is cleaner.
Is he clean? Difficult to say.
Is he cleaner or dirtier than other guys who were/are used to dope? We don't know.

But for sure, some doped riders should sink in the hierarchy with less doping while the cleanest will climb.
Have we got access to his passport? how do we know that Bruyneel hasn't got a deal with UCI/McQuaid. Apart from Li Fuyu, how many riders have tested positive under the Hog?
 
Jun 27, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
there was no investigative journalism in Rasmussen's case. Davide Cassani a former pro mentioned while commentating for RAI on the TdF that he met Rasmussen training on top of a mountain is Italy in June. I am not sure who put the 2 things together, Rasmussen supposedly in Mexico, but being in Italy in June but it wasn't investigative journalism. It was attentive journalism at best.:)
Well, agreed it wasn't really investigative journalism. But certainly the media took notice of Cassani's comment and that's what got the ball rolling. Everyone in the cycling world (including Cassani) would have been content to let the matter be but at the time some journalists felt comfortable pressing the doping issue.

Anyway, as long as the dominant attitude remains omerta then it's just a matter of time before either the police or the media (I don't mean cycling media, but rather non cycling journos like Le Equipe or Suedeutsche) upset the cart and out some dopers.
 
May 26, 2010
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ludwig said:
Well, agreed it wasn't really investigative journalism. But certainly the media took notice of Cassani's comment and that's what got the ball rolling. Everyone in the cycling world (including Cassani) would have been content to let the matter be but at the time some journalists felt comfortable pressing the doping issue.

Anyway, as long as the dominant attitude remains omerta then it's just a matter of time before either the police or the media (I don't mean cycling media, but rather non cycling journos like Le Equipe or Suedeutsche) upset the cart and out some dopers.
agreed

i am hoping that governments take an interest in doping for the fact that medicines are being sold illegally and start some serious investigations.
 
I am a little worried about all this investigation into Armstrong/Popovich/Radioshack, because I don't want Klodi kicked out of the sport, at least not before he gets another TDF podium place. :D

As for the whole Rasmussen thing in '07 - I think it was a disgrace. I still believe that after all his great riding in that TDF, that he should have been allowed to win that tour. It was either that or he should not have been allowed to start in the first place.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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gregrowlerson said:
I am a little worried about all this investigation into Armstrong/Popovich/Radioshack, because I don't want Klodi kicked out of the sport, at least not before he gets another TDF podium place. :D

As for the whole Rasmussen thing in '07 - I think it was a disgrace. I still believe that after all his great riding in that TDF, that he should have been allowed to win that tour. It was either that or he should not have been allowed to start in the first place.
You can bring that up with the UCI...
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Hugh Januss said:
And good luck with that, as he was the sacrificial lamb du jour, for that tour.;)
I hope Greg understood that as clearly as you did...

No pos, a bunch of OOC misses with the lead up, thumb in the eye to ASO and AFLD, and a perfect chance to make the TdF look bad.

If that wasn't a giant "F*ck You" to the TdF, and the whole idea of racing clean in general, I don't know what is.

And this from the Lords and SuperBosses of the sport. Nicely done, guys. Nice...
 
Mar 13, 2009
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ludwig said:
Well, agreed it wasn't really investigative journalism. But certainly the media took notice of Cassani's comment and that's what got the ball rolling. Everyone in the cycling world (including Cassani) would have been content to let the matter be but at the time some journalists felt comfortable pressing the doping issue.

Anyway, as long as the dominant attitude remains omerta then it's just a matter of time before either the police or the media (I don't mean cycling media, but rather non cycling journos like Le Equipe or Suedeutsche) upset the cart and out some dopers.
individual high profile positives and trials provide a key role. It enables the system to marginalise a few key individuals, as scapegoats, and those rengade bad apples or dirty team. Just like Abu Ghraib

They are unique, one-off instances, that serve to beseech credulity of the sport. If there were no dopers handcuffed and perp walked, then believability cant be contrived can it?
 
May 3, 2010
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The point about 2007 is while Rasmussen was rightly thrown out (and also under the bus), Contador wasn't and was protected by his national federation (as they continue to do). If you have the right passport then you are in luck.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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and StrongArm protected in all circumstances til the feds stepped in and Pat McQuack soiled his briefs
 

Yeahright

BANNED
Jan 29, 2011
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Given that fact that really no rider can win anything without being accused of being jacked on something, the solution is simple... have no winners, at the end of the race give all the competitors who finish a 'completion award certificate' and just dish out any prize money as spot prizes.

Of course there may still be accusations, (probably by Ms Murphy) that anyone who finished the race and so received a certificate, must have been doped:eek:
 
Yeahright said:
Given that fact that really no rider can win anything without being accused of being jacked on something, the solution is simple... have no winners, at the end of the race give all the competitors who finish a 'completion award certificate' and just dish out any prize money as spot prizes.

Of course there may still be accusations, (probably by Ms Murphy) that anyone who finished the race and so received a certificate, must have been doped:eek:
Yeah, you are probably right, they are mostly clean except for a few bad apples, and they are weeding them out. Umm, is your real name Pat McQuaid?
 

Yeahright

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Hugh Januss said:
Yeah, you are probably right, they are mostly clean except for a few bad apples, and they are weeding them out. Umm, is your real name Pat McQuaid?
Hmm, bit touchy there dude...Lance??
 
May 3, 2010
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Kloden is very different to the 'guy winning must be a doper'. This is a rider who has been accused (and paid a fine relating to it) of having a blood transfusion in 2006, has ridden for Astana MK I and Mk II, RS, T-Mob/Telekom, and who came up through the GDR system - every team that he has been associated with has been accused of systematic doping and he has been at the heart of all of those teams.

Now, after doing nothing he is suddenly riding better than ever and better than riders 5-10 years younger than him. And we are supposed to believe that is clean and that it is a great sin to question his performances...

If you played 6 degrees of doping separation then Kloden would be Kevin Bacon.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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While I'm sure Kloden is doping, I doubt he's doping any more then he was last year, or in 2009, 2008 or 2007.

Tony Martin was in the lead group on the stage he won. I like Martin a lot... but he's not a super-climber. Kloden didn't drop the group in some super-human climbing display or put 2-minutes into the next fastest man in a time trial.

The results don't indicate a huge boost in ability from past years... just a course with a favorable profile and perhaps a bit more motivation.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
The point about 2007 is while Rasmussen was rightly thrown out (and also under the bus)
Rasmussen wasn't thrown out of the '07 Tour, Rabo pulled him out.
 
Apr 13, 2010
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VeloCity said:
Rasmussen wasn't thrown out of the '07 Tour, Rabo pulled him out.
Pulled-schmulled... It's commonly accepted that Rabo were asked to pull him voluntarily if they didn't want the whole team to go involuntarily.

I still think it's funny though that he's served a ban - not based on being positive, but by bending the rules on how to count missed tests (hey, if we count this one and that one twice, he'll have enough for us to ban him!). The case only started rolling because of the story in the media (Contador anyone?).
This alone give plenty of leeway for the silly apologists to go on about how unfairly he's been treated while conveniently overlooking the Austrian and Italian cases where's he's just too implicated for common sense to even consider his credibility (I'm not sure even he likes his credibility, but his version is good - everybody should like that). Not to mention his attempt at showing his innocence; publishing his blood numbers only to have them severely questioned by Damsgaard et al as being very suspicious as, albeit always within a reasonable hct, they were all fluctuating wildly...

Enough of that - better moderate myself now for going off topic!
 
Apr 13, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
The point about 2007 is while Rasmussen was rightly thrown out (and also under the bus), Contador wasn't and was protected by his national federation (as they continue to do). If you have the right passport then you are in luck.
Actually I think they threw him into the bus - and then drove him far, far away...
 

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