Klöden

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Nov 29, 2010
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sniper said:
just look at that foto.
It's basically the facial expression of every rider who wins: unable to really enjoy the victory, living with the lie, knowing it's a fraud, knowing he's a fraud. knowing he's defrauding. knowing the next day he might be facing a positive.
I disagree with this quote. I think the majority of doped riders are the opposite actually. They do enjoy the victory and some even believe they "didn't do anything wrong" for whatever reasons (they think everyones do it or well thats all they know and have grown up with etc). Also like with CERA they didn't think it was possible to get a positive since there wasn't a test for it or UCI didn't know at the time (can't remember exactly). Something like that could be happening now.

If what you said was true I don't think we would have as much of a problem with doping as we do now ...

Oh and as an edit Kloden as he approaches the end of his career strikes me as someone who this does not describe for sure ! He has had a comfortable career, seems money-wise he is solid, he's never concerned with actually winning anything - always loves being the domestique and being more relaxed. He would not put himself under all this neccessary 'stress' at the end of his cycling to risk a win, so either 1)he isn't on drugs or 2)he couldn't give a **** if gets caught.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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MacRoadie said:
Dunno. It's either that or the hat...
Yeah, it's gotta be the hat. I really don't think any of them feel guilty, since they know with even greater certainty than us that "everyone is doing it".
 
May 3, 2010
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deValtos said:
If what you said was true I don't think we would have as much of a problem with doping as we do now ...
With Kloden riding like this I think it shows exactly the opposite. That there is a massive problem with doping if an old rider who has done nothing for years (and his 39 year old team mate) are suddenly performing like we would expect riders 10 years younger to be performing.

Moose McKnuckles said:
I like Horner but if he were any more juiced he'd be V8.
Why do you think he gets a virtual free pass?
 
Nov 29, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
With Kloden riding like this I think it shows exactly the opposite. That there is a massive problem with doping if an old rider who has done nothing for years (and his 39 year old team mate) are suddenly performing like we would expect riders 10 years younger to be performing.
Wait what, I think you may have read my sentence wrong ? There is a massive problem with doping but I was saying that I don't think there would be if what sniper said was true. Which is why I think it's not true :).
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
With Kloden riding like this I think it shows exactly the opposite. That there is a massive problem with doping if an old rider who has done nothing for years (and his 39 year old team mate) are suddenly performing like we would expect riders 10 years younger to be performing.



Why do you think he gets a virtual free pass?
And here we have the main problem, (edited by cobblestoned) .
That is an even bigger problem than doping all around the world.
People that don't make any sense and just talk crap.

http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/teams_fahrer_809.php

So, if I understand you correctly you prefer dopers winning that are 10 years younger.

Don't know if you noticed, but there are dopingtests that figure out da caught dopers. AFLD hate Klöden and RS, sucked last blood and **** out of him at P-N.
What did they find ? NOTHING, and they were really really hot.
Look, life can be really easy. I just subdivide in dopers and caught dopers.
Makes life easier, makes sense, no surprises and such crapthreads, just because you don't like a rider or a special team, are not needed.
They are as superfluous as you and your "problem".

Comprende or not ?

Our planet, society, values and mankind getting more and more spoiled in every way and around the clock.
Sorry, but people who expect anything getting BETTER, or expect clean athletes, can't be on their minds or live in their own beautiful world.
But please go on dreaming about THE change.
Heal the wooooooorld, make it a better place, for you and for me....... :rolleyes:
 
Jul 7, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
1. Lemond wasn't race specific over his career. I used to think the same thing until I ran across some old classics footage with LeMond in the thick of the battle.

2. Kloden clobbered everyone yesterday. It was extraordinary. Is Kloden doping? Dunno. His history suggests he may well be.

3. This "proof" you and others demand in order to maintain the myth request is never well defined. Please specify the kind of proof you want.

If there's new PED's in the peloton, we'll see more breakout performances. I think that's the thing to watch for.
To point 3...how about a POSITIVE test this year? As far as I can recall, nothing has come out. Is that "DEFINED" enough for you?
 
May 3, 2010
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deValtos said:
Wait what, I think you may have read my sentence wrong ? There is a massive problem with doping but I was saying that I don't think there would be if what sniper said was true. Which is why I think it's not true :).
Fair enough, I did misread it.

Kloden is emblematic of how far the sport hasn't come. Ex-GDR, ex-Telekom, ex-Astana mk 1 and mk2 and ****

How the hell he survived the implosion of T-Mob I have no idea.

It's not even as if he is fading off to obscurity - with potentially Dertie, Menchov, etc being out of the TDF people are talking seriously about a potential top 3 performance. So we kick out a young doper in Dertie, so we can let in an old doper in Kloden. And the sport is supposed to 'be cleaner now'
 
Glenn_Wilson said:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2004/04/09/gaumont040409.html

millar etc. etc. etc. Hired LA .... etc ...etc....


LMAO that someone would put up a Cofidis cyclist as a vison of clean.
The distinction here being that the police got the whole Cofidis ring and David Moncoutié wasn't part on it, unlike Koden at T Mob.
He is pretty much universally considered by the peloton to be "clean" again, unlike Kloden.

Sure, we can never be 100% certain, but he comes as close as anyone to getting the tag.

The same goes for speculation over the current form of Kloden and Horner.
Nobody here knows for sure.

However, one thing is certain. Age effects everyone's performance. Decline, when it comes, is initially slow, but inevitable.
So too, did Gilberto Simoni. His last three Giri tell the tale.
When a rider with a dubious history reverses this natural regression, it becomes a source of increased scepticism.
 
Kloden has always doped and still is. Don't see that he is on any new magic formula. Sure, he's getting a little bit long in the tooth, but it's not like he's never been a top rider. '04 and '06 2nd in TDF, would have finished top 5 in '07 but for Astana's disqualification, was on track for a podium in the '08 Giro (after winning Romandie and placing 3rd in middle ITT in Italy) until he got sick, lost four minutes in an early stage of the '08 Vuelta due to crash and then rode for AC, finished 6th in '09 TDF after 2nd at Swiss, last year had reasonable form apart from a disappointing 14th at TDF. It's not as if Kloden has been at the back of the pack the last 5 years....

And he's always been excellent against the clock.

It remains to be seen whether his 2011 form can get him back onto the TDF podium (I hope so). It's likely that if he rides well he will finish about 5th, but that's a long way away.
 
May 13, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Isn't 2006 at the core of this.

Look at it this way in 2006 on the roulette wheel of doping:

Landis lost
Basso lost
Ullrich lost
(Not to mention others since then who have been popped).

And yet, in 2006 we know that Kloden was driving to Germany for blood transfusions, and yet his only punishment has been a fine.

And now, after doing very little for a couple of years (albeit having a waterboy for Dertie) he is suddenly climbing and TTing like he was in his 'glory' days.

Everytime McQuaid or someone claims that cycling is cleaner I feel that someone needs to show them a picture of Kloden and say 'Oh really?'
Kind of.

Kloden is one of the few riders which got off in 2006 although everybody knows he went to Freiburg to dope. So there is a perfectly understandable resentment. Even Valverde was caught in the end and Dertie is in trouble now (for an unrelated offense, but ok).

They're testing him often enough and seem to come up empty. Maybe the reason why he still rides so well is that previous doping gave him permanent physiological changes, as I said before.

The UCI used Franco as one of their first examples to test the passport. Now, Kloden would make a much easier target, if they had passport numbers to make a case.
 
sniper said:
It also explains why riders stick to their sunglasses even after the race during interviews.
It's not easy to fool someone and look him straight into the eyes at the same.

I've never seen a tennis player answering questions with sunglasses on.
Not saying tennisplayers don't cheat, but it's much less of an there.
Occam's razor! Could a sponsor contract with the sunglass manufacturer possibly have something to do with it?

And as for the podium ceremonies, they are usually of a distinctly amateurish nature, with ugly flowers, so-so podiums, endorsing filthy soft drinks, wearing crazy hats, ugly women who want to kiss you, etc. and all of that for a price you knew for a few days already was coming your way. It is not as if winning a GT or smaller tour will give the same instant adrenaline rush or exhilaration as scoring a match-winning oal or scoring the match point at Wimbledon. You are reading way too much in to this.

Regards
GJ
 
Aug 17, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
With Kloden riding like this I think it shows exactly the opposite. That there is a massive problem with doping if an old rider who has done nothing for years (and his 39 year old team mate) are suddenly performing like we would expect riders 10 years younger to be performing.



Why do you think he gets a virtual free pass?
Your comment reminds me of the cashier at Long's Drug's a few years ago. I came in carrying my infant son and she commented about what a cute Grandson i have. I told her I was carrying my son and gave her the eye, as if I would give her a go, just to let her know..... yes Mrs. Murphy some of us older guys can still get it up, er I mean we can power up the hills..... even some of the girl's(see Jeenie Longho)
 
Sep 10, 2009
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flicker said:
yes Mrs. Murphy some of us older guys can still get it up, er I mean we can power up the hills..... even some of the girl's(see Jeenie Longho)
No question Kloden has some talent. No question too that he's been strongly linked to doping, and that can't just be ignored. Whether his performances this year are because of doping or not is really rather irrelevant - any success that he has is going to raise questions, simply because of his past. Don't really see a problem with fans being a wee bit skeptical of his success - chickens coming home to roost, karma, lying in the bed you made, whatever you want to call it, Kloden's brought that skepticism on himself.

Pure speculation, but I sometimes wonder if Kloden wasn't the smartest of them all - do just enough to be considered a top rider (and get paid accordingly) but not quite enough (ie win a GT) to attract too much attention.
 
Cobblestoned said:
Don't know if you noticed, but there are dopingtests that figure out da caught dopers. AFLD hate Klöden and RS, sucked last blood and **** out of him at P-N.
What did they find ? NOTHING, and they were really really hot.
Let's not speak too soon. I doubt they will find anything (or if they do find anything it will be something that can cause the same kind of protracted legal battle we've seen with Valverde, Contador and Mosquera), but let's remember:

Danilo di Luca's Giro positives were announced during the Tour (2 months)
Mikel Astarloza's positive in a pre-Tour OOC was announced in early August (6 weeks)
Eladio Jiménez's positive in the Volta a Portugal was announced in mid-December (4 months).

Paris-Nice was a month ago. The test results may not be fully sorted yet.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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The **** hit the fan in cycling from 2006-08.

During this time there was some confusion on the proper attitude cyclists should take towards doping and talking about doping. Essentially there were visible and dangerous "cracks" in 'omerta'. Sometimes guys would speak out of self-interest, some would speak because of regret, some for both (think Jaksche, Sinkewitz), some simply out of frustration at being caught (Mancebo) while others continued to race.

And some kept their mouths shut. Basso, Contador, and Kloeden are excellent examples of this latter attitude.

What we can say for sure is the riders in the first group were eventually ejected and ostracized from the peloton, while the riders of the latter group have returned to their positions of prominence, frequently on the major teams (eg currently Saxo, Shack, Liqigas etc).

Kloeden is simply an outstanding example of a dominant trend. That trend is the triumph of omerta and the policies and attitudes promoted by Riis, Bruyneel etc. We have arrived in a new era of omerta, and it will take intervention from outside the sport (eg either police intervention a la Puerto or media intervention like investigative journalism into Rasmussen being in Mexico etc) to upset the current balance.
 
Aug 17, 2009
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ludwig said:
The **** hit the fan in cycling from 2006-08.

During this time there was some confusion on the proper attitude cyclists should take towards doping and talking about doping. Essentially there were visible and dangerous "cracks" in 'omerta'. Sometimes guys would speak out of self-interest, some would speak because of regret, some for both (think Jaksche, Sinkewitz), some simply out of frustration at being caught (Mancebo) while others continued to race.

And some kept their mouths shut. Basso, Contador, and Kloeden are excellent examples of this latter attitude.

What we can say for sure is the riders in the first group were eventually ejected and ostracized from the peloton, while the riders of the latter group have returned to their positions of prominence, frequently on the major teams (eg currently Saxo, Shack, Liqigas etc).

Kloeden is simply an outstanding example of a dominant trend. That trend is the triumph of omerta and the policies and attitudes promoted by Riis, Bruyneel etc. We have arrived in a new era of omerta, and it will take intervention from outside the sport (eg either police intervention a la Puerto or media intervention like investigative journalism into Rasmussen being in Mexico etc) to upset the current balance.
Kloeden, Vino, Basso, DiLucca are the last of the Mohicans, in my estimation.
 
May 26, 2010
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ludwig said:
The **** hit the fan in cycling from 2006-08.

During this time there was some confusion on the proper attitude cyclists should take towards doping and talking about doping. Essentially there were visible and dangerous "cracks" in 'omerta'. Sometimes guys would speak out of self-interest, some would speak because of regret, some for both (think Jaksche, Sinkewitz), some simply out of frustration at being caught (Mancebo) while others continued to race.

And some kept their mouths shut. Basso, Contador, and Kloeden are excellent examples of this latter attitude.

What we can say for sure is the riders in the first group were eventually ejected and ostracized from the peloton, while the riders of the latter group have returned to their positions of prominence, frequently on the major teams (eg currently Saxo, Shack, Liqigas etc).

Kloeden is simply an outstanding example of a dominant trend. That trend is the triumph of omerta and the policies and attitudes promoted by Riis, Bruyneel etc. We have arrived in a new era of omerta, and it will take intervention from outside the sport (eg either police intervention a la Puerto or media intervention like investigative journalism into Rasmussen being in Mexico etc) to upset the current balance.
there was no investigative journalism in Rasmussen's case. Davide Cassani a former pro mentioned while commentating for RAI on the TdF that he met Rasmussen training on top of a mountain is Italy in June. I am not sure who put the 2 things together, Rasmussen supposedly in Mexico, but being in Italy in June but it wasn't investigative journalism. It was attentive journalism at best.:)
 
May 3, 2010
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ludwig said:
The **** hit the fan in cycling from 2006-08.

During this time there was some confusion on the proper attitude cyclists should take towards doping and talking about doping. Essentially there were visible and dangerous "cracks" in 'omerta'. Sometimes guys would speak out of self-interest, some would speak because of regret, some for both (think Jaksche, Sinkewitz), some simply out of frustration at being caught (Mancebo) while others continued to race.

And some kept their mouths shut. Basso, Contador, and Kloeden are excellent examples of this latter attitude.

What we can say for sure is the riders in the first group were eventually ejected and ostracized from the peloton, while the riders of the latter group have returned to their positions of prominence, frequently on the major teams (eg currently Saxo, Shack, Liqigas etc).

Kloeden is simply an outstanding example of a dominant trend. That trend is the triumph of omerta and the policies and attitudes promoted by Riis, Bruyneel etc. We have arrived in a new era of omerta, and it will take intervention from outside the sport (eg either police intervention a la Puerto or media intervention like investigative journalism into Rasmussen being in Mexico etc) to upset the current balance.
Agree entirely. And that is the way they like it. There are a few token busts of riders (not money making riders) etc to keep up the image of being 'tough on doping' while dirty teams continue to sail through.

It's also that those teams: Saxo, Leopard, Cack, Leaky all have the resources to stay one step ahead of the testers. It would be interesting to work out what the current programme is that they are using because it looks like it is a some good stuff.

I also wonder if the Biopassports are forcing some teams to either scale back their doping and as a result the gap between the doped and less doped riders looks bigger. ie FC at E3, RVV and PR, Dertie, Kloden, HGH, all look streets ahead of the rest of the field. A return to a two-speed peloton? Especially if these figures are true http://justcycling.myfastforum.org/sutra181611.php&highlight=#181611
 

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