Kolo Toure tests positive (Football)

[LugHugger]

What systematic doping in cycling? It's always a steak, a dog, a mother-in-law, candy, an unborn twin or whiskey. Or a diet pill.

Ah, of course. My bad.

 

[The Hitch]

This is a long way from the systemic doping present in pro cycling.

Operation Puerto and a number of other cases prove that systematic doping is present in football and other sports.

If you dont know that much, you shouldn't be making general statements regarding systematic doping in sports.

Had you read through this thread you would also know that if there was systematic doping in football, there wouldn't be any evidence for it, because the few times players do get tested, they dont test for things like blood doping, at least not properly.

 

[LugHugger]

Operation Puerto and a number of other cases prove that systematic doping is present in football and other sports.

If you dont know that much, you shouldn't be making general statements regarding systematic doping in sports.

Had you read through this thread you would also know that if there was systematic doping in football, there wouldn't be any evidence for it, because the few times players do get tested, they dont test for things like blood doping, at least not properly.

I don't make general statements that there IS systemic doping in sports that I can not back this statement up with. I would expect you to understand the difference.

 

[ksmith]

I don't make general statements that there IS systemic doping in sports that I can not back this statement up with. I would expect you to understand the difference.

So if you dont test cyclists there's no doping, thats the theory from what you have stated.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What systematic doping in cycling? It's always a steak, a dog, a mother-in-law, candy, an unborn twin or whiskey. Or a diet pill.

Marta Bastianelli spent two years on the shelf because of a diet pill. Aurélien Duval is 14 months into a two year ban for a diet pill.

"Taking a diet pill" is a seriously bad excuse because it is doping in and of itself.

 

[Silver]

I think the biggest shock here is theyve actually caught someone

The premiership probably has the most pointless anti doping procedures of any sport.

Look at NHL hockey's doping policy if you really want a laugh.

 

[sniper]

Operation Puerto and a number of other cases prove that systematic doping is present in football and other sports.

If you dont know that much, you shouldn't be making general statements regarding systematic doping in sports.

Had you read through this thread you would also know that if there was systematic doping in football, there wouldn't be any evidence for it, because the few times players do get tested, they dont test for things like blood doping, at least not properly.

Without a shadow of a doubt. Look at the number of matches played e.g. in the Premier League. Add to that the matches certain players play for their national squad. How are you gonna recover from that number of matches without a program?

 

[ksmith]

From the Guardian newspaper: 'He took pills to loose weight, he was doing it because he wanted to be successful'. Adviser Valere Gouriso

Thats a pretty good definition of doping.

They have to test more in football the excuses are so much more entertaining in cycling. They need the practice.

 

[alpine_chav]

To be fair Kolo Toure doesn't make a living from being fastest. Doping in football gives a much smaller advantage than in cycling because football primarily relies on technical skills levels for success while cycling is all about fitness and power. Hope we see Kolo back in action soon. He's a class act which is not something you can generally say about footballers these days.

 

[Ferminal]

To be fair Kolo Toure doesn't make a living from being fastest. Doping in football gives a much smaller advantage than in cycling because football primarily relies on technical skills levels for success while cycling is all about fitness and power. Hope we see Kolo back in action soon. He's a class act which is not something you can generally say about footballers these days.

Not at all, try executing when you're completely fatigued, or try winning when you run considerably slower and less often than your similarly skilled and tactically astute opponent(s).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Isidro Nozal, Tyler Hamilton and Patrik Sinkewitz are all people who have been met by people on this forum and can only be described as class acts. Sinkewitz I personally met and found to be a really nice guy.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't have been banned for their doping. So I don't care how much of a class act Kolo Touré is, he can sit out two years like anybody else.

(Yes I know Sinky only sat out one year because of co-operating)

 

[The Hitch]

To be fair Kolo Toure doesn't make a living from being fastest. Doping in football gives a much smaller advantage than in cycling because football primarily relies on technical skills levels for success while cycling is all about fitness and power. Hope we see Kolo back in action soon. He's a class act which is not something you can generally say about footballers these days.

First of all the main use for peds is injury recover. FOotball has a lot of injuries, and players have immense pressures to get back into action as they are very valuable to their teams. Its just as needed there as epo is to compete at a gt.

So there goes your entire "it wouldnt help them" piece out of the window.

But peds would also help tremendously on the pitch.

Strenght. half the defenders i know couldnt keep a ball up more than 10 seconds. They are just big brutes who rely on great strenght to put off and block off attackers. And in the midfield where they are constantly competing against eachother in tight spaces for the ball, strenght is half the battle. Try getting bashed by a Michael Essien then tell me if you think a bit more strenght wouldnt have come in handy

So why would anyone use steroids in football


Stamina is a neccesity. Trying doing sprint, stop, sprint stop, sprint stop, none stop for 90 minutes. When cyclists do a tt or mountain they manage their effort so its not 100% so your conserving energy and not blowing up.

But footallers are going 100% all the time. If you try to manage your effort in a sprint for the ball, you lose. So they are doing 100%, rest, 95%, rest, 100%, rest, and this can be just as if not more tiring than 80% over 50km.

And we are supposed to believe that these guys are doing this 90 minutes a game, 80 times a year, without losing their peak, without tiring etc, naturaly?

Bare in mind that a heavy football schedule is a very recent phenomenon. 20 years ago footballers had less matches than that and still struggled. in the late 90's Emanuelle Petit said tougher schedules would require ped use and that he knew people who were already doing it. He was of course told to shut up.

Also answer me, why have footballers been caught with 50+ hematocrits if it doesnt matter?

That alone, as well as simple logic proves that PED use would be very helpful in football as it is in all sports.

 

[sniper]

Isidro Nozal, Tyler Hamilton and Patrik Sinkewitz are all people who have been met by people on this forum and can only be described as class acts. Sinkewitz I personally met and found to be a really nice guy.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't have been banned for their doping. So I don't care how much of a class act Kolo Touré is, he can sit out two years like anybody else.

(Yes I know Sinky only sat out one year because of co-operating)

Good point. By the way, did Guardiola eventually avoid suspension for his nandrolone positive? I believe he did.

I personally think FC Barcelona is on top of the list of heavily juiced-up teams.
Not only because of Pep G., but also because of his predecessor, Frank Rijkaard.
Before signing with Barca, Frankie was going into the record books as one of the poorest trainer-coaches in the history of Dutch football. Under his command, a renommated Dutch club (SParta) dropped from the first to the second league.
After winning several major prices with Barca and leaving the club in 2007 (I believe), Frankie went back to his old habit of dragging the teams he coaches (e.g. Galatasaray) into misery and long-lasting loosing streaks.
IOW, Frankie's a lousy coach but nonetheless managed to conquer Europe with Barca.

And whatabout Pep G.? What did he do before he coached Barca? Indeed, nothing. Really, what makes Pep into the wonder-coach the results suggest he is?

p.s.: I'm just joining dots here.

 

[The Hitch]

Good point. By the way, did Guardiola eventually avoid suspension for his nandrolone positive? I believe he did.

I personally think FC Barcelona is on top of the list of heavily juiced-up teams.
Not only because of Pep G., but also because of his predecessor, Frank Rijkaard.
Before signing with Barca, Frankie was going into the record books as one of the poorest trainer-coaches in the history of Dutch football. Under his command, a renommated Dutch club (SParta) dropped from the first to the second league.
After winning several major prices with Barca and leaving the club in 2007 (I believe), Frankie went back to his old habit of dragging the teams he coaches (e.g. Galatasaray) into misery and long-lasting loosing streaks.
IOW, Frankie's a lousy coach but nonetheless managed to conquer Europe with Barca.

And whatabout Pep G.? What did he do before he coached Barca? Indeed, nothing. Really, what makes Pep into the wonder-coach the results suggest he is?

p.s.: I'm just joining dots here.

Also bare in mind that a few years ago Le Monde said that Barcelona had been with Fuentes. But they could not name their sources so Barca succesfully sued.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/2008-01-15-572480161_x.htm

Would a newspaper with as much history and prestige as Le Monde really accuse Barca of this if they had no proof??? The Sun maybe, but Lemonde. Doesnt make sence.

And wasnt Fuentes found with their training plans?

Not to mention Messis hormone treatment.

Now whose brother was it that played for Barca last year and only sold for £30 million?

Your absolutely right about Guardiola. His success shows that managment is not all its made out to be. Its supposed to a tactical skill, learned over time and perfected, but he comes out 2 years after retirment and becomes the most succesful coach of the decade

This article explains what Lemonde claimed it found as well as, explaining a second article which had an interview with Fuentes.

http://www.ergogenics.org/484.html

 

[sniper]

Also bare in mind that a few years ago Le Monde said that Barcelona had been with Fuentes. But they could not name their sources so Barca succesfully sued.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/2008-01-15-572480161_x.htm

Would a newspaper with as much history and prestige as Le Monde really accuse Barca of this if they had no proof??? The Sun maybe, but Lemonde. Doesnt make sence.

And wasnt Fuentes found with their training plans?

Not to mention Messis hormone treatment.

Now whose brother was it that played for Barca last year and only sold for £30 million?

Your absolutely right about Guardiola. His success shows that managment is not all its made out to be. Its supposed to a tactical skill, learned over time and perfected, but he comes out 2 years after retirment and becomes the most succesful coach of the decade

This article explains what Lemonde claimed it found as well as, explaining a second article which had an interview with Fuentes.

http://www.ergogenics.org/484.html

nice links, thanks.

 

[hrotha]

Fuentes is alleged to have received an offer to work for Barça but he turned it down.

As for Guardiola, well, of course doping helps a lot in football, but Barça is still insanely skilled. Of course they were going to do well, juiced or not. Same for Rijkaard. With top teams, what makes a good coach often comes down to the ability to manage a group of divas.

I believe doping is widespread in football, but that doesn't mean everything's just a matter of dope. Especially since their rivals are supposed to be juiced too, right?

 

[The Hitch]

Fuentes is alleged to have received an offer to work for Barça but he turned it down.

As for Guardiola, well, of course doping helps a lot in football, but Barça is still insanely skilled. Of course they were going to do well, juiced or not. Same for Rijkaard. With top teams, what makes a good coach often comes down to the ability to manage a group of divas.

I believe doping is widespread in football, but that doesn't mean everything's just a matter of dope. Especially since their rivals are supposed to be juiced too, right?

I never said Guardiolas inesperience proves doping, just that it proves managment isnt what the media makes it out to be.

And of course they arent the only ones doing it.

As i have argued, at that level, doping (at least to some extent) is more a requirment than a luxury.

 

[sniper]

Fuentes is alleged to have received an offer to work for Barça but he turned it down.

As for Guardiola, well, of course doping helps a lot in football, but Barça is still insanely skilled. Of course they were going to do well, juiced or not. Same for Rijkaard. With top teams, what makes a good coach often comes down to the ability to manage a group of divas.

I believe doping is widespread in football, but that doesn't mean everything's just a matter of dope. Especially since their rivals are supposed to be juiced too, right?

Well, Spain has been remarkably good in the 21st century, both at national and club level. Also in width. Much better than in the 90s.
It's tempting to join dots there. Might be a coincidence, might not be.

I mean, what about a team like Sevilla winnig the Uefa Cup and reaching the final of the Champions league, but nonetheless being chanceless in their own homeleague against the likes of Barca and Real.

 

[The Hitch]

Well, Spain has been remarkably good in the 21st century, both at national and club level. Also in width. Much better than in the 90s.
It's tempting to join dots there. Might be a coincidence, might not be.

I mean, what about a team like Sevilla winnig the Uefa Cup and reaching the final of the Champions league, but nonetheless being chanceless in their own homeleague against the likes of Barca and Real.

Im not 100% sure with that.

Real won i think like 3 champions leagues in late 90's and early 2000's. Barca won a champs league in 1994 or something.

Besides things like the Juve thing suggest that doping was already big in the 90's. And that involved a lot of french players, who we know doped while winning world cup.

Personally i dont believe that its just spain doing it. We know it was done by French and Italians. And I dont for a second believe the Germans who claim doping is limited to cycling are clean.

Especially since football in europe is so interlinked. Italians play in france play in spain play in Germany etc.

 

[hrotha]

Real have been a non-factor in Europe for years, never making it past the quarterfinals, and Sevilla have never survived the round of 16 (and the UEFA Cup is a minor tournament). At club level, only Barça has been very good, and the national team relies predominantly on Barça players.

We know from Parma and Juventus that Italian football was rotten already in the late 90s, and there's little reason to think that will have changed at all as there's been no pressure in that direction.

If anything, the country dominating football at club level in recent years has been England. Where Toure plays.

I could leave it at that but that'd be unfair - as far as I know, there's little evidence pointing at systematic doping at the Premiership, as there is for Spain and Italy, but let's put things into perspective.

 

[Met de Versnelling]

Well, Spain has been remarkably good in the 21st century, both at national and club level. Also in width. Much better than in the 90s.
It's tempting to join dots there. Might be a coincidence, might not be.

I mean, what about a team like Sevilla winnig the Uefa Cup and reaching the final of the Champions league, but nonetheless being chanceless in their own homeleague against the likes of Barca and Real.

OT, but i disagree here. You need to bear in mind, Sevilla beat Middlesborough in the final of the UEFA Cup. Yeah, M'boro, the same team looking in danger of getting relegated to the third teir of English football this season. Tells you the quality of the teams that played in it. The following year when they defended it, they played Steaua Bucharest, Shakhtar Donetsk, Tottenham Hotspur, and CA Osasuna, before beating Espanyol in the final.

Apart from Spurs the last year and a half (and Shaktar are consistently decent in Europe, but not great), not exactly what you'd call, "high quality" opposition. Remember, the UFEA cup is for those teams that can't break the oligopoly of the top 2/3/4 in their respective countries.

-----

As for Pep.G, great mangers can and do come from nowhere. Look at Mourinho, not one knew him outside of Portugal/Barca before they won the Champions League in 2005. Regardless of whether his team are "enhanced", to manage a squad of those collective talents and to keep them motivated to become better, is down to Pep. No amount of Dope in the world could change those factors.

Plus the fact he was always going to be a great manager, the leadership and ability to read the game when he was playing showed that he always had it in him. Similar to Roy Keane, who i think has all the skills, except for man-management (hence his "failings" everywhere except Sunderland), whereas Pep has M-M in spades.

-----

First of all the main use for peds is injury recover. FOotball has a lot of injuries, and players have immense pressures to get back into action as they are very valuable to their teams. Its just as needed there as epo is to compete at a gt.

So there goes your entire "it wouldnt help them" piece out of the window.

But peds would also help tremendously on the pitch.

Strenght. half the defenders i know couldnt keep a ball up more than 10 seconds. They are just big brutes who rely on great strenght to put off and block off attackers. And in the midfield where they are constantly competing against eachother in tight spaces for the ball, strenght is half the battle. Try getting bashed by a Michael Essien (EDIT: Legend - Met) then tell me if you think a bit more strenght wouldnt have come in handy

So why would anyone use steroids in football


Stamina is a neccesity. Trying doing sprint, stop, sprint stop, sprint stop, none stop for 90 minutes. When cyclists do a tt or mountain they manage their effort so its not 100% so your conserving energy and not blowing up.

But footallers are going 100% all the time. If you try to manage your effort in a sprint for the ball, you lose. So they are doing 100%, rest, 95%, rest, 100%, rest, and this can be just as if not more tiring than 80% over 50km.

And we are supposed to believe that these guys are doing this 90 minutes a game, 80 times a year, without losing their peak, without tiring etc, naturaly?

Bare in mind that a heavy football schedule is a very recent phenomenon. 20 years ago footballers had less matches than that and still struggled. in the late 90's Emanuelle Petit said tougher schedules would require ped use and that he knew people who were already doing it. He was of course told to shut up.

Also answer me, why have footballers been caught with 50+ hematocrits if it doesnt matter?

That alone, as well as simple logic proves that PED use would be very helpful in football as it is in all sports.

+100

 

[alpine_chav]

First of all the main use for peds is injury recover. FOotball has a lot of injuries, and players have immense pressures to get back into action as they are very valuable to their teams. Its just as needed there as epo is to compete at a gt.

So there goes your entire "it wouldnt help them" piece out of the window.

When did I say it wouldn't help?

 

[alpine_chav]

Not at all, try executing when you're completely fatigued, or try winning when you run considerably slower and less often than your similarly skilled and tactically astute opponent(s).

Yes you're right but the benefit isn't as big compared to doing a 3 week tour. You can only get skillful and tactically astute by practicing which makes you fit. They are of course all intertwined disciplines but still the advantages from doping in football are not as apparent when compare to endurance racing type sports.

 

[The Hitch]

OT, but i disagree here. You need to bear in mind, Sevilla beat Middlesborough in the final of the UEFA Cup. Yeah, M'boro, the same team looking in danger of getting relegated to the third teir of English football this season. Tells you the quality of the teams that played in it. The following year when they defended it, they played Steaua Bucharest, Shakhtar Donetsk, Tottenham Hotspur, and CA Osasuna, before beating Espanyol in the final.

Apart from Spurs the last year and a half (and Shaktar are consistently decent in Europe, but not great), not exactly what you'd call, "high quality" opposition. Remember, the UFEA cup is for those teams that can't break the oligopoly of the top 2/3/4 in their respective countries.

-----

As for Pep.G, great mangers can and do come from nowhere. Look at Mourinho, not one knew him outside of Portugal/Barca before they won the Champions League in 2005.

I dont agree with that. . Look at Scolari. Best manager in the world at one point, Winning world cups, taking an average Portugal to Euro final and World cup semis. The same guy later failed with Chelsea and is now managing in front of league 1 crowds in brazil

Maybe if there were schools were people learned the trade of managment etc and the best graduated, you could say managment was a skill that some people are experts at. But as it happens all that finding managers these days involves is getting a player with celebrity status and since hes popular, making him manager. Thats how Alan Shearer became manager of newcastle. Thats how Pep Guardiola became manager of Barca. A name people can recognise. Thats it.

And Mourinho is no genius.

His Porto win, hes not the first nor last manager to win something with a poorer team, though surely Deschamps would be more of a genius for taking a far weaker Monaco team to that final. All his success since has been with Chelsea - the best club in the world at the time, and then inter- the best club in the world at the time.

Hell 2 months later Greece won the Euro Championships, now they cant score a goal ( its the same manager). So if managment is such a precious skill either then presumably Otto reg(something) has lost all his skill. Or more likely managment is a far more fragile business where luck plays a very big part.

And mourinho was already tipped as next chelsea manager before he won that cup. He was lucky to be sacked in November 2007 as he was clearly on his way down. He had the best team in the world with Chelsea, but had not even reached the CL final in his 3 years there, and had lost the title the year before. He was doing even poorer in those first 3 months of that season before he was given the coup de grace.

Mourniho has shown time and time again with his comments about Islam and Omlets and messianic claims that he is a total idiot who would be laughed in any other proffession. But football being what it is with papers making millions on any little story, someone who comes out claiming to be the special one, is exactly what the media wants. When he said that crap about Omlets they were actually fainting in adulation that he was saying such things.

But if a politician had done that, they would be called mad, and forced to leave politics for ever.

 

[alpine_chav]

I dont agree with that. . Look at Scolari. Best manager in the world at one point, Winning world cups, taking an average Portugal to Euro final and World cup semis. The same guy later failed with Chelsea and is now managing in front of league 1 crowds in brazil

Maybe if there were schools were people learned the trade of managment etc and the best graduated, you could say managment was a skill that some people are experts at. But as it happens all that finding managers these days involves is getting a player with celebrity status and since hes popular, making him manager. Thats how Alan Shearer became manager of newcastle. Thats how Pep Guardiola became manager of Barca. A name people can recognise. Thats it.

And Mourinho is no genius.

His Porto win, hes not the first nor last manager to win something with a poorer team, though surely Deschamps would be more of a genius for taking a far weaker Monaco team to that final. All his success since has been with Chelsea - the best club in the world at the time, and then inter- the best club in the world at the time.

Hell 2 months later Greece won the Euro Championships, now they cant score a goal ( its the same manager). So if managment is such a precious skill either then presumably Otto reg(something) has lost all his skill. Or more likely managment is a far more fragile business where luck plays a very big part.

And mourinho was already tipped as next chelsea manager before he won that cup. He was lucky to be sacked in November 2007 as he was clearly on his way down. He had the best team in the world with Chelsea, but had not even reached the CL final in his 3 years there, and had lost the title the year before. He was doing even poorer in those first 3 months of that season before he was given the coup de grace.

Mourniho has shown time and time again with his comments about Islam and Omlets and messianic claims that he is a total idiot who would be laughed in any other proffession. But football being what it is with papers making millions on any little story, someone who comes out claiming to be the special one, is exactly what the media wants. When he said that crap about Omlets they were actually fainting in adulation that he was saying such things.

But if a politician had done that, they would be called mad, and forced to leave politics for ever.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.