Kreuziger going down?

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-approves-four-year-bans-for-doping

So, reading comprehension failure. Grazie.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.kreuzigercase.com/

My name is Roman Kreuziger. I am a professional cyclist. I have never doped and never tested positive for doping..........

 

[The Hitch]

Isn't Kreuziger part of the new generation?

I mean he is a year younger than Nibali and the same age as Dan Martin.

 

[westerner]

About half way through reading the Ineista document on RK's web site. Just past the quoting of this study:

http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/48112

The authors followed 16 cyclists (from 2 world leading teams) in the 1998 Vuelta. Hmmmm...at the height of the EPO era. So would conclusions based on this study of athletes who were likely manipulating their biochemistry be valid with respect to generation cleans? I'd be tossing that bit of 'evidence' out right away.

 

[Jancouver]

About half way through reading the Ineista document on RK's web site. Just past the quoting of this study:

http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/48112

The authors followed 16 cyclists (from 2 world leading teams) in the 1998 Vuelta. Hmmmm...at the height of the EPO era. So would conclusions based on this study of athletes who were likely manipulating their biochemistry be valid with respect to generation cleans? I'd be tossing that bit of 'evidence' out right away.

Haha, why would anybody think that UCI, WADA or CAS would even look in any of this. I'm not a lawyer but it is not a secret that majority of legal cases are decided on a "golf course".

It is obvious that Roman is going down and nothing from his defense will be taken in to consideration.

Roman was riding for Astana at that time and this case is just to give UCI another reason to refuse WT license (or any license) for Astana.

Roman may be forced to talk about Astana's doping program in exchange for a ride. We shall see very soon.

 

[hrotha]

There's really no need to posit foul play or prejudice by the UCI or CAS when Kreuziger's values and defense are this ridiculous.

 

[del1962]

There is only 1 obvious place in the sport for Vino.


Head of CyclingGB/Team Sky.

So you are not seriously answering the question about vino's role in the sport, but just deflecting too sky.

 

[The Hitch]

So you are not seriously answering the question about vino's role in the sport, but just deflecting too sky.

Considering Froome is a close friend of Vino's who poses in photos with him and celebrates his career by attending his leaving party, and Michelle claims Froome didn't understand that being banned for taking drugs is cheating, and Wiggins said upon Vinos return that the anti dopers should just shut their mouths and let Vino race, I don't think bringing up Sky in a discussion about Vino is that much of a deflection.

 

[DirtyWorks]

There's really no need to posit foul play or prejudice by the UCI or CAS when Kreuziger's values and defense are this ridiculous.

IMO, it's not that they've opened a case. The UCI was certain it was open and shut, so why now?

 

[DirtyWorks]

So you are not seriously answering the question about vino's role in the sport, but just deflecting too sky.

Since we're talking Vino, lifetime ban is the only answer. To be clear, there's a long list of similar guys deserving similar.

 

[sniper]

There's really no need to posit foul play or prejudice by the UCI or CAS when Kreuziger's values and defense are this ridiculous.

agreed,
but there's of course a possibility that other passports have looked similarly ridiculous yet have been ignored by UCI.
Not saying it is happenning, but we know it happened with Armstrong and i don't doubt for a second UCI still have the ability to cover up BP positives.

 

[del1962]

Since we're talking Vino, lifetime ban is the only answer. To be clear, there's a long list of similar guys deserving similar.

Thanks for the answer, but the problem with that is that he has already been punished and can we ban anyone who has had a doping conviction for life.

We have to create a set of rules as to what can constitutes a lifetime ban, and whether any person would fit into that rule.

If proof could be found that someone is organising a doping program, then that would mean a lifetime ban, but is there sufficient evidence in vino's case

 

[the sceptic]

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/12/k...stions-about-biological-passport-doping-case/

“The odd part about it is that his reticulocyte count is elevated,” he said. “When you are talking about 2012, the question is what the hell was he using? If he had a blood transfusion [in the final week of the Giro, thus explaining the rise to a haematocrit of 48.1], it should have knocked his reticulocyte count down and it didn’t.

“I was expecting to see something a lot like Armstrong’s case, where the haemoglobin stays higher than expected, and then you get a reticulocyte count that you would expect from a micro-dose, a masking dose. But in Kreuziger’s case, the reticulocyte is elevated. So what was he using and why couldn’t they pick it up in retrospective samples?”

Puchowicz points out that Thomas Dekker was nabbed with such retrospective testing, but that Kreuziger doesn’t seen to have been caught in this regard. This troubles him as it suggests that there may be a product in use that the labs don’t have a test for.

“There are several months over the course of two years where he has got this very elevated reticulocyte count. All signs kind of point to doping from that perspective. But for me it is disturbing in terms of if it is doping, then look how bad the direct tests are. It points to it being something undetectable.”

 

[del1962]

I condemn doping and cheating in sport. I consider the biological passport to be an excellent tool. However, clear rules for its use must be set out otherwise it is useless and can be used to eliminate anyone. Rules cannot be changed during a game.

Or what he means to say is

I condemn those caught doping. I think the biological passport should be set out in such a manner that I can dope within the parameters and if they change it with improvements, I should not fail but should be given clear warning so I can adjust my doping regime to meet the new parameters

 

[Merckx index]

During the 2012 Giro, the substantial jump in haematocrit on stage 18 coincided with a drop in reticulocytes, and occurred one day after he cracked and lost a lot of time. Interestingly, though, the change in his blood parameters came one day before he rode extremely strongly and won stage 19.

But this is not exactly what it says earlier in the article:

The third stage race which falls within the UCI’s period of concern is the 2012 Giro d’Italia [May 5 – 22]. He did a pre-race test on May 3, then others on May 14 [stage 9], May 20 [stage 15] and May 24 [stage 18].

His haematocrit levels were 45.1, 43.2, 44.8 and 48.1 respectively, while his reticulocyte levels were 1.45, 1.44, 1.52 and 1.4.

There was a jump in HT, but there was not a significant drop in retics. In fact, as MP notes, his retics were elevated, though only relative to a level one would expect in most people:

The odd part about it is that his reticulocyte count is elevated,” he said. “When you are talking about 2012, the question is what the hell was he using? If he had a blood transfusion [in the final week of the Giro, thus explaining the rise to a haematocrit of 48.1], it should have knocked his reticulocyte count down and it didn’t.

His retics weren't elevated compared to what they were earlier in that GT, they in fact were pretty stable in the four measurements. He might have used EPO to counter the suppression of a blood transfusion, but it's also possible that his fourth sample was taken so soon after transfusion that there wasn't time for the retics to be suppressed. In fact, if I understand the timeline correctly, he was tested some time following stage 18, on which he did poorly, then rode really well on stage 19. That suggests that if the rise in HT was due to a transfusion, the latter occurred shortly before he was tested, so in fact there would be no suppression of retics. I really don't see the need to explain some new, unknown drug.

What is strange, though, and maybe MP is referring to this, is his consistently elevated retics, over a long period of time.

For the Giro 2011:

The values are 46.9 percent, 46.5, 43 and 48.4, as taken on May 5 [pre-race], May 20 [day of stage 13], May 29 [stage 21] and June 11 [post-race]. The reticulocytes for the same period are 1.52, 1.62, 1.78 and 1.66, all considerably higher than the average expected value of one percent.

So his HT declined during the GT, as it should, and his retics went up, which might be in response to the natural decline of the HT. The only thing suspicious during this GT is the consistently high retic levels, as I noted before. The final measurement, showing a fairly high HT, came after the GT. Unless he was preparing for another race (anyone know?), there would be no reason to transfuse at this point. So maybe that HT was natural, with the rise resulting from the recovery after the GT.

TDF 2011:

That year’s Tour de France [July 2 – 24] is another period highlighted by the UCI as being of concern. Kreuziger’s haematocrit levels were 44, 44, 44.3 and 47.6 for June 30 [pre-race], July 15 [stage 13], July 20 [stage 17] and August 1 [post race], while the corresponding reticulocyte readings were 1.31, 1.45, 1.77 and 1.6.

HT stable during the Tour, it would be expected to fall, but at least it didn’t rise. And again, a rise after the GT, which might have been from natural recovery. Retics did rise during the GT, though, which could certainly indicate EPO use, preventing the natural fall in HT.

 

[thehog]

But this is not exactly what it says earlier in the article:


There was a jump in HT, but there was not a significant drop in retics. In fact, as MP notes, his retics were elevated, though only relative to a level one would expect in most people:


His retics weren't elevated compared to what they were earlier in that GT, they in fact were pretty stable in the four measurements. He might have used EPO to counter the suppression of a blood transfusion, but it's also possible that his fourth sample was taken so soon after transfusion that there wasn't time for the retics to be suppressed. In fact, if I understand the timeline correctly, he was tested some time following stage 18, on which he did poorly, then rode really well on stage 19. That suggests that if the rise in HT was due to a transfusion, the latter occurred shortly before he was tested, so in fact there would be no suppression of retics. I really don't see the need to explain some new, unknown drug.

What is strange, though, and maybe MP is referring to this, is his consistently elevated retics, over a long period of time.

For the Giro 2011:



So his HT declined during the GT, as it should, and his retics went up, which might be in response to the natural decline of the HT. The only thing suspicious during this GT is the consistently high retic levels, as I noted before. The final measurement, showing a fairly high HT, came after the GT. Unless he was preparing for another race (anyone know?), there would be no reason to transfuse at this point. So maybe that HT was natural, with the rise resulting from the recovery after the GT.

TDF 2011:

HT stable during the Tour, it would be expected to fall, but at least it didn’t rise. And again, a rise after the GT, which might have been from natural recovery. Retics did rise during the GT, though, which could certainly indicate EPO use, preventing the natural fall in HT.

I found Dr. Hampton's summary interesting:

http://kreuziger.a1.esports.cz/wp-content/uploads/DRHAMPTON.pdf

Whilst it looks like Kreuzinger is doping the UCI's case to prove that he did is fairly paltry. They don't appear to be providing direct or meaningful research on why Kruezinger's values indicate drug use.

Also CyclingTips is incorrect. The Corsetti paper was not tabled by Kreuzinger but by the UCI.

 

[Race Radio]

After reviewing the evidence it is easy to see why the UCI is so confident in their case.

As part of their smoke screen Kreuziger and Saxo have complained about delays. Dr.Iniesta's report says that CADF Followed "Standard Procedures" and walks through the process. Nothing fishy.

Kreuziger's often publicly cites not hitting certain values as proof of his innocence. The Czech Olympic committee also mentioned this in their reasoned decision. This is absurd, as Shane points out

arguing that basal values need to be crossed in order to trigger a biological passport procedure is misleading and inaccurate. The biological passport looks for unusual patterns over time, with the UCI obviously feeling that the fluctuations highlighted are sufficient to pursue a doping case.

Interesting to note the decision by the ABP panel was unanimous. They all agreed he was doping, no objections. The software and the panel flagged him twice

Kreuziger presents a couple of points of defense. One is Corsetti's paper that pretends to show a increase of Hgb in the last week of a GT. I am surprised they used someone as controversial as Corsetti. He was part of the medical program at Fasso Bortolo. Frigo said Fassa had a team doping program. Corsetti is likely mentioned in Tommy D's affidavit as Other-1. Corsetti has a history of defending dopers (Franco Pellizotti)

Corsetti's study showed that only 4 of the 9 riders showed an increase from the low point of the race.....but none had an increase from the start of the race like RK did.

The study says

"Haemoglobin, red blood cells and haematocrit decreased during the race with a stabilization in the second half, but final values were lower than baseline. "

Kreuziger's Hct went up from 45 at the start to 48 at the finish. He did not end the race lower but at one of his highest levels for the year..... So the study that RK uses as a cornerstone to his defense does not even support his case, no wonder Mike dismisses it

Puchowicz states that it is difficult to take the Corsetti paper as a guarantee of how the body responds, pointing out that the riders concerned could potentially have been doping themselves.

The other point of defense, hypothyroidism, is clearly absurd.....as Mike points out

they are talking about a change in reticulocyte count in terms of treating hypothyroidism. However that’s going from complete lack of thyroid function to being fully treated.

The real question I have is who is pushing this nonsense? Does Kreuziger really think this will work or has he been duped by a handful of guys who make money by giving false hope to dopers?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Thanks for the answer, but the problem with that is that he has already been punished and can we ban anyone who has had a doping conviction for life.

We have to create a set of rules as to what can constitutes a lifetime ban, and whether any person would fit into that rule.

If proof could be found that someone is organising a doping program, then that would mean a lifetime ban, but is there sufficient evidence in vino's case

This is where we get into how narrowly defined and weak WADA and NADOs really are. They are being used as a PR tool sanctioning the "lone doper."

With Armstrong's case there was evidence various federation people were assisting with doping and nothing happened. No one granted WADA the authority to sanction the sports administrators for a good reason. There is money to be made if an IOC sport can find someone to transcend the sport.

2015 updates to the WADA standards have some good changes regarding the various people who associate with the athletes, but again, the sport administrators are free to enable doping.

 

[TomasC]

...

What is strange, though, and maybe MP is referring to this, is his consistently elevated retics, over a long period of time.
...

Couldn't it be just long-time constant micro-micro-dosing?

 

[PeterB]

Couldn't it be just long-time constant micro-micro-dosing?

Problem with assumed EPO micro-dosing to increase %Ret is that such procedure should at the same time increase also Hgb levels, which was not observed (this remark was made by Hampton in his analysis).

 

[PeterB]

Interesting to note the decision by the ABP panel was unanimous. They all agreed he was doping, no objections.

If I understand the ABP process correctly, decision must be unanimous, otherwise the case is not pressed further. So to see such unanimity is sort of inevitable once the actual case was opened.

The other point of defense, hypothyroidism, is clearly absurd.....as Mike points out

What I found interesting is that hypothyroidism was discussed only from the perspective of whether increase of %Ret could be attributed to the treatment, which is one line of his defense relying on the thyroid issue.

There's however also second line of defense, according to which hypothyroidism was responsible for the actual increase of Hgb during Giro '12: that on the previous stage Kreuziger sufferred dehydratation causing decrease of plasma volume, and that this volume did not sufficiently recover because of his thyroid condition. I have no idea to what extent this claim is plausible but I can imagine one would measure higher Hgb/Hct if some plasma volume got absorbed the previous day and did not "refill" in natural way due to some hormone issue relating to thyroid... Curiously, neither Kreuziger's experts use this argument too strongly...

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Giro, Hb and Retic (hb/10 to fit graph)

Looks like he ramped up EPO before the 20th and then took blood.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The other point of defense, hypothyroidism, is clearly absurd.....as Mike points out

Just FYI, PED abuse can lead to hypothyroidism.

The well researched topic is using anabolics has been shown to lead to hypothyroidism through a not-yet understood mechanism. I read this in bodybuilding forums as a consequence of Testosterone use. We know WADA's T/E ratio is ridiculously high, so, there's that.

The much less understood interaction is HGH use somehow leading to hypothyroidism.

Both Test and HGH are wide open for use to certain levels.

Finally, there appears to be some indication that thyroid treatment (T3) can lead to reductions in fat stores. The other side of that is it's widely posted to stay away from thyroid medications as a PED. This is cycling after all, so maybe someone has sorted out how to do it.

 

[thehog]

If I understand the ABP process correctly, decision must be unanimous, otherwise the case is not pressed further. So to see such unanimity is sort of inevitable once the actual case was opened.

What I found interesting is that hypothyroidism was discussed only from the perspective of whether increase of %Ret could be attributed to the treatment, which is one line of his defense relying on the thyroid issue.

There's however also second line of defense, according to which hypothyroidism was responsible for the actual increase of Hgb during Giro '12: that on the previous stage Kreuziger sufferred dehydratation causing decrease of plasma volume, and that this volume did not sufficiently recover because of his thyroid condition. I have no idea to what extent this claim is plausible but I can imagine one would measure higher Hgb/Hct if some plasma volume got absorbed the previous day and did not "refill" in natural way due to some hormone issue relating to thyroid... Curiously, neither Kreuziger's experts use this argument too strongly...

The UCI refused to show up to the hearing??!

Submitted their papers and didn't present?

Then the UCI accused the Czech board of bias. Fun & games.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Looks like he ramped up EPO before the 20th and then took blood.

Which he almost certainly re-infused before the last data point.