Kreuziger going down?

[Netserk]

What's constitutes "worse"?

That being the case, why wasn't Horner flagged?

Isn't that self-explaining? Because RK's numbers were worse. It's only really if it was the other way 'round that it would be weird.

 

[thehog]

Isn't that self-explaining? Because RK's numbers were worse. It's only really if it was the other way 'round that it would be weird.

I see what you're saying but there is no state that is "worse" in the bio passport. It's the shift in values with 2 data points being the minimum number required.

RKs number if anything are "unique" with respect to the pattern they follow. They are not like we've seen before. Not like Horner, Armstrong or any other rider, clean or dirty.

I don't really care about the doping I just find the pattern very interesting. Yet to be explained to be honest. Dismissing it as doping doesn't really tell the full story.

On Stoke's article there are some very intelligent comments being posted on both sides of the fence.

The UCI has one goal here and that's not to find the truth. That is to sanction. Whereas I'd actually like to know what he did to get his values to be so odd.

 

[poupou]

It is very odd that Roman has some of his highest Hct/Hgb readings of the year in the 3rd week of the Giro and the Tour. That can be explained by a bag of blood......but those Retics make no sense. They are consistently high, with the occasional crash. What is he using to do this?

I suppose he could be very consistently microdosing EPO. Or he has some new, un testable EPO......but with Retro testing this should be testable in the near future so if this is the case I expect we will find out.

It would be very interesting to see RK's numbers from 2013 and 2014.

Is it because reticulocytes are better to catch and transport oxygen than red cells?

 

[Catwhoorg]

What's constitutes "worse"?

That being the case, why wasn't Horner flagged?

Beats me as to why Horner did raise a flag, but he seems to know how to game the system a little better

RK's case is as clear a case as you can find.
Removal of blood, followed by re-infusion. SLAM DUNK.

In Horner's case they cannot pinpoin both. (only an indication of reinfusion).
Therefore worse.

 

[thehog]

RK's case is as clear a case as you can find.
Removal of blood, followed by re-infusion. SLAM DUNK.
.

When was the blood withdrawal?

 

[webbie146]

When was the blood withdrawal?

around 10 days before the Giro 2012 if I remember correctly.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Late April

Which is when I would suggest he dropped/cut way back on the EPO microdosing to avoid any IC red flags.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

There are several months over the course of two years where he has got this very elevated reticulocyte count. All signs kind of point to doping from that perspective. But for me it is disturbing in terms of if it is doping, then look how bad the direct tests are. It points to it being something undetectable.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/12/k...stions-about-biological-passport-doping-case/

It is very odd that Roman has some of his highest Hct/Hgb readings of the year in the 3rd week of the Giro and the Tour. That can be explained by a bag of blood......but those Retics make no sense. They are consistently high, with the occasional crash. What is he using to do this?

I suppose he could be very consistently microdosing EPO. Or he has some new, un testable EPO......but with Retro testing this should be testable in the near future so if this is the case I expect we will find out.

Opens up the possibility that Ryder's naturally high Hb and ret% in the same year isn't natural after all.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

For the Giro 2011:

So his HT declined during the GT, as it should, and his retics went up, which might be in response to the natural decline of the HT. The only thing suspicious during this GT is the consistently high retic levels, as I noted before. The final measurement, showing a fairly high HT, came after the GT. Unless he was preparing for another race (anyone know?), there would be no reason to transfuse at this point. So maybe that HT was natural, with the rise resulting from the recovery after the GT.

TDF 2011:

HT stable during the Tour, it would be expected to fall, but at least it didn’t rise. And again, a rise after the GT, which might have been from natural recovery. Retics did rise during the GT, though, which could certainly indicate EPO use, preventing the natural fall in HT.

Plasma volume is normalised after a GT, thus revealing an elevated red cell mass that was masked in the 2nd and 3rd week of the GT due to plasma expansion?

 

[Race Radio]

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/104141558388/kreuziger-defence-bull****

UCI/WADA really needs to deal with the Corsetti paper and consistent application of a Hb rebound/elevation in a Grand Tour as a sign of doping. Here we see the argument being made against Kreuziger. It has been made against Armstrong, as well as Landis. The same pattern has been ignored in the cases of the 4 Liquigas riders, Ivan Basso, Chris Horner, David Millar, and Brad Wiggins. In terms, of publicly available data that I am aware of, only Hesjedal and Vande Velde don’t show this pattern.

Mike makes some good points. The challenge is that many of the studies that examine blood profiles during a GT (Damsgaard, Corsetti, Morkburg) could have challenges as we do not know if the riders were clean.

Some of Corsetti's claims make some sense. Hgb falls during the first 10 days of the Tour then, for some riders, levels stabilize and perhaps slightly recover. Riders bodies adapt, values have to stabilize sometime...... but how much recovery is normal?

Hesjedal, and some of the Liqugas riders, showed a very small recovery in Hgb in the 3rd week . Armstrong and Horner show larger jumps. Landis and Kreuziger were significant.

What is normal?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Are we sure the drop is caused by blood withdrawal? Because there's no spike in retics. Maybe Roman hemodiluted before the start of the Giro since the pre-start test is probably laughably easy to predict.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

There is a period of unusual persistent elevation of the reticulocyte count in the spring/summer of 2011 and into 2012 1.52 +/- 0.16 versus the rest of the baseline of 1.07 +/- 0.22 that also happen to coincide with some big important time periods of training and racing in the Tour and Giro.

How does ones baseline retics increase by 40% over a period of months without anything fishy going on?

 

[search]

well, yes, there obviously is a reason the graph below there looks like this:

 

[thehog]

around 10 days before the Giro 2012 if I remember correctly.

...based on what data?

 

[sniper]

Very good point on Ryder. The guy started young.

If you look at my posts you will see that I was not trying to cherry pick but was comparing the tests results from RK and RH that were from dates that were closest to each other. Some tried to twist this into some weird cover up conspiracy when clearly my goal was to compare like numbers and show their changes from the same time the race were significantly different.

As for Ryder I can see both sides. Mike's (Veloclinc) analysis of his values and output is very good but it is hard to not question his sudden, late career, GT victory.....but that is a topic for another thread.

On the RK topic, it is interesting to compare his numbers with others we have. Ryder, Wiggins, Armstrong, Landis, Rassmusen, Horner. Roman's are the most questionable. They compare with landis' in 2006. Not Normal

thanks for expanding, very fair points. I'm just trying to keep you sharp

 

[del1962]

This reminds me of a Kafka trial

I’d prefer to finish second for 15 years than have a cloud hanging over me.

On visiting Ferrari

And yes, I went. I was young and some people told me to go to him for training because he was the best. When you’re 20, if people say that to you, then you will go.

So Roman who told you to go to Ferrari?

and

he (Ferrari) was one of the first to tell me that cycling had changed and that there had been a new generation

I don’t think I can get a four year ban. I think that’s bull**** because I’ve not had a ban before and I’ve not organised doping. I think I could get two years but that depends when it starts. There are many options

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exclusive-kreuziger-speaks-about-his-biological-passport-case

 

[rehy90]

According to czech news, Kreuziger recently went through a lie detector test...and was successful...

 

[burning]

http://kreuzigercase.cz/have-you-ever-doped-no-i-passed-a-lie-detector-test/

This is way too funny

 

[Jancouver]

Kreuziger is lying even about the support of former president Vaclav Havel. You dont need to take a polygraph test to know that Vaclav Havel has been dead since 2011 ...

 

[peloton]

Kreuziger is lying even about the support of former president Vaclav Havel. You dont need to take a polygraph test to know that Vaclav Havel has been dead since 2011 ...

Wait, he seriously wrote that?

 

[roundabout]

Wait, he seriously wrote that?

of course not

 

[Jancouver]

of course not

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/sest2wh74udgy07/AADOdALHHrid1b-E3yQtf5DDa

 

[roundabout]

links not working

 

[Jancouver]

Too funny

 

[Bernhard]

Not everything written on cyclingnews is correct.

Original on kreuzigercase.com is different