Landis Attacks Vaughters

[Hugh Januss]

Words fail me

Only when it comes to raising a legitimate point.

 

[andy1234]

While this is far from reality, there is no doubt that any uniballer-sect-members would wear yellow headbands or dickrings or yellow wherever their boss tells them to do so

If Floyd said to put grapes in a fruit salad, people like you would bring up the FFF and why nobody should ever trust him again, and why you believe The Uniballer has more credibility, and how Floyd is bitter, and how Floyd is obviously looking for Whistle Blower money, and how Betsy is a liar, and...

F**k me you guys are like a broken record.
"your either wit us or aginst us" (in southern accent)

Armstrong and Landis are the same F***ing thing. One got caught, the other one didnt (yet)

 

[Benotti69]

F**k me you guys are like a broken record.
"your either wit us or aginst us" (in southern accent)

Armstrong and Landis are the same F***ing thing. One got caught, the other one didnt (yet)

Landis rode his bike for a living and doped along the way

Armstrong since 2004 rode his bike to screw to cancer suffers and doped along the way

 

[Mambo95]

If Floyd said to put grapes in a fruit salad, people like you would bring up the FFF and why nobody should ever trust him again, and why you believe The Uniballer has more credibility, and how Floyd is bitter, and how Floyd is obviously looking for Whistle Blower money, and how Betsy is a liar, and...

"People like you". Who exactly do you think people like me are? A quick check of past posts will show that I have consistently said that I think Armstrong doped (quite a lot). However, I rarely get involved in Armstrong threads, and I'm fairly sure I have never mentioned FFF, whistler blower money, Betsy or any of that stuff.

On the other hand, I don't automatically believe everything Landis says, just because he wrote that nice e-mail (which itself may well have had a couple of small factual errors in it). Many on the other hand treat every word as though it is unimpeachable wisdom - hence the tomato quip.

I have also recently posted that this forum is now so polarized into extremes, that sensible reason debate is largely redundant, with many posters replacing reason and sense with bile and vitriol - a point which you have most generously illustrated.

 

[sniper]

"People like you". Who exactly do you think people like me are? A quick check of past posts will show that I have consistently said that I think Armstrong doped (quite a lot). However, I rarely get involved in Armstrong threads, and I'm fairly sure I have never mentioned FFF, whistler blower money, Betsy or any of that stuff.

On the other hand, I don't automatically believe everything Landis says, just because he wrote that nice e-mail (which itself may well have had a couple of small factual errors in it). Many on the other hand treat every word as though it is unimpeachable wisdom - hence the tomato quip.

I have also recently posted that this forum is now so polarized into extremes, that sensible reason debate is largely redundant, with many posters replacing reason and sense with bile and vitriol - a point which you have most generously illustrated.

disagree. there is much nuance here.
And there is lots of speculation. But is that bad?
some posters around here do not allow for any speculation, cuz this or that is supposedly not (legally) proven and/or might be based on half truths.
With common sense, however, of which there is plenty around in the clinic, it's perfectly legitimate and makes perfect sense to speculate, because only by speculating will one gain new insights into what's really been going down in cycling.
So to stop speculating only because FLoyd might not be telling the full truth is not really a productive approach, imo.

edit:
and common sense predicts that 95% of what Floyd says really happened.

 

[BotanyBay]

Who cares, anyway? If Garmin is a UCI-sanctioned fraud this is bigger than LA.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Floyd's Levels;

TdF - 30.06.05 hct 44.5%
TdF - 18.07.05 hct 45.2%
TdF - 23.07.05 hct 42.8%

Wiggins Levels;

TdF - 01.07.2009 hemoglobin = 15(g/dl)
TdF - 14.07.2009 hemoglobin = 14(g/dl)
TdF - 20.07.2009 hemoglobin = 15.5(g/dl)
TdF - 25.07.2009 hemoglobin = 13(g/dl)

Wiggins graph shows a peak in the third week same as Floyd

To call them similar is a wee bit of a stretch. Bradley's levels dropped by 13.3% from start to finish, while Floyd's only dropped by 3.8%. Furthermore, Floyd had like 3 immature RBC's pumping through his veins by week 3.

But of course, Bradley's 13 g/dl reading might be the result of hemodilution and a large fall in retics (did BW publish his, btw?) can be prevented by micro-dosing EPO, which Floyd had mastered a year later, although his crit was ridiculous.

 

[Boeing]

It is like there are 2 Floyds. Does this guy need help now to function in society? as in Bi-Polar?

Floyd the ambassador for the sport? and Floyd the Avenger?. which is it?

Even if Floyd is right on the mark, his behavior undermines the credibility of anything he says. His behavior isolates him when he needs support at any level; personally or in the fight against the problem....right or wrong in any allegation he is seen as chancing ghosts. the problem is his behavior is not giving back to the sport, he does not appear to want to fix anything. Right or wrong both his pre and post confession behavior has sabotaged any chance at personal redemption and he is viewed as one taking from the sport still for personal gain.

the only thing I can think of is that he is so emotionally scared from the events in his life he can't function. Is it that simple? perhaps so

I think he really can't handle the fact (fact in his mind) that he fell further than anyone in cycling when he was just "doing what they all did" at the time?

His timing is suspect. Outs all at the start of ToC. Then a farewell statement at the start of the 2011 season in OZ. He gets no fanfare for the goodbye so he is back in attack mode.

Memo to Floyd. Dude you are not going to get a job that is clear. not because you cheated or lied. Because you can't put a cognitive argument together and bring people to your side. You can't even quantify the significance to your allegations as a means to benefit the sport. Suck it up, take care of your person and start a foundation and set up shop in the inner city somewhere and get kids on bikes and in 20 years you have an impact on the sport you think you are having now.

As a side note and out of respect, I retract my suggestion in another post that Floyd needs to stand a little closer to the razor.

 

[dbrower]

Wiggins didn't have the same values. He had, from the very limited data provided by Wiggins, what appeared to Landis's completely unqualified mind to be similar values to his.

Does Landis have any idea what clean values should be? Does anyone who posts on here?

It's not clear that anyone does, as far as I can tell. Landis spoke of using EPO to mask blood doping, to jiggle with the off-score results, and you'll note a distinct lack of Passport cases carried to a conclusion.

If Landis sees a profile that looks like his, he may very well be a better expert on the reality than a "non-practitioner"

-dB

 

[dbrower]

Some questions for you.

What time of day where each of the tests done?
How much does the hemoglobin (and Hct) level of an average human vary in a single day?
What does to the hemoglobin (and Hct) graph look like for an average 30 year old man over three week period?
What does the hemoglobin (and Hct) graph of a clean rider in the Tour de France look like?
What impact do dehydration and the toughness of racing have on hemoglobin?
Why are you comparing variations in HCT levels with Hb levels? Do you know what the difference is?
Does your knowledge of blood profiles extend beyond the simplistic (and incorrect) 'number goes up=doping'?

I remember asking very similar questions at the time Landis' values were being discussed the first time. I thought they were pretty good rejoinders, but we saw how that worked out.

I think 'clean' and 'doped' values have so much overlap it's hard to tell, and you start looking at other indicators -- like like extraordinary performance, and whispers. Not proof, but as they say, "eyebrow raising".

-dB

 

[frenchfry]

I remember asking very similar questions at the time Landis' values were being discussed the first time. I thought they were pretty good rejoinders, but we saw how that worked out.

I think 'clean' and 'doped' values have so much overlap it's hard to tell, and you start looking at other indicators -- like like extraordinary performance, and whispers. Not proof, but as they say, "eyebrow raising".

-dB

It was heartwarming to see you get smacked down big time. TBV = LOL.

Now I think Floyd is a great guy, go figure.

 

[Anonymous]

"People like you". Who exactly do you think people like me are? A quick check of past posts will show that I have consistently said that I think Armstrong doped (quite a lot). However, I rarely get involved in Armstrong threads, and I'm fairly sure I have never mentioned FFF, whistler blower money, Betsy or any of that stuff.

On the other hand, I don't automatically believe everything Landis says, just because he wrote that nice e-mail (which itself may well have had a couple of small factual errors in it). Many on the other hand treat every word as though it is unimpeachable wisdom - hence the tomato quip.

I have also recently posted that this forum is now so polarized into extremes, that sensible reason debate is largely redundant, with many posters replacing reason and sense with bile and vitriol - a point which you have most generously illustrated.

The filters will not allow me to answer the first question.

On the second point, for all of your feigned objectivity, it is clear to anyone with an IQ north of 90 that you stand on a pole yourself. Physician heal thyself.

 

[BotanyBay]

Interestingly enough, the original blog post is now gone from the versus website.

 

[mewmewmew13]

...it's now on this thread in its entirety...as of last night

 

[andy1234]

The filters will not allow me to answer the first question.

On the second point, for all of your feigned objectivity, it is clear to anyone with an IQ north of 90 that you stand on a pole yourself. Physician heal thyself.

Jeez, now I'm confused.
Are you being an A**, or are you just feigning being an A**?

 

[Mambo95]

The filters will not allow me to answer the first question.

On the second point, for all of your feigned objectivity, it is clear to anyone with an IQ north of 90 that you stand on a pole yourself. Physician heal thyself.

It is a shame that you do not feel sufficiently confident in the breadth of your vocabulary to express youself adeqately without recourse to vulgarity. I would have valued your input. Be assured, I will attribute this deficiency to the schooling standards of Charlotte rather than you personally.

As to my polarity, as I am confident that your IQ exceeds 90, would you mind enlightening me as to what it is, given that I consistently says that a) Armstrong doped and b) not everything Landis says should be believed unquestioningly.

The truth is, I stopped caring about Armstrong long ago.

 

[Granville57]

Interestingly enough, the original blog post is now gone from the versus website.

Tada!!!
The original article on Versus by Neil Browne.
Strangely titled: The Inside Story of of Matt White's Firing

Floyd Landis has struck out once again at the cycling establishment...

Here it is, Botany.

 

[lean mean &green]

His timing is suspect. Outs all at the start of ToC. Then a farewell statement at the start of the 2011 season in OZ. He gets no fanfare for the goodbye so he is back in attack mode.

we don't know who leaked floyd's original emails, whoever did so probably timed it to greatest effect. it's very possible floyd had nothing to do with it.

i think floyd has faced the fact he's retired from competition for awhile, he likely made his retirement official so that it wouldn't be a distraction going forward. the timing of the SI article may have forced him to do so more than any other factor.

so the answer is no, his timing isn't suspect if you cared to pay close attention.

 

[BotanyBay]

Here it is, Botany.

Thanks Granville57. It's amazing that they can post something like this and make it vanish the next day. lack-o-balls.

 

[dbrower]

Thanks Granville57. It's amazing that they can post something like this and make it vanish the next day. lack-o-balls.

I think Neil got a lesson in the difference between being a ""Big Deal in the Cycling Media" and being a "Journalist". There's a difference.

-dB

 

[BotanyBay]

I think Landis is feeling the oats of freedom coming from not giving a flying leap about racing again, and being judgment-proof.

-dB

I think many had an "oh-crap" moment when they saw that Landis officially retired. At least before this, people figured he still might be hoping to rejoin the ranks in some way and might be selective about revealing what he knows. Now they can all assume that everything he knows about everyone is going to come out eventually.

 

[Galic Ho]

more investigation needs to done on Landis's computer expertise and real financial holdings. He has a deep inside knowledge into every team and aspect of cycling. I ma starting to think instead of a new hip he got an xray vision device that allows him to see everything even down to the makeup of Wiggins blood. I think the front of Landis as a penniless,cheat ,bitter liar is all a put on. He is cyclings rainman..Thank you Landis I look forward to more useful information about things you know all about. You probably have a huge avocado farm on a mountain someplace in North County and only fool all the people by living in a dump..you are a wily one Mr.Landis

JV came on this very forum, into the Clinic, back in August 2009. Newsflash, the Clinic was a rip roaring forum for doping info, gossip and facts most cycling fans had never heard in 2009. Wigans blood profiles, along with Lances, were posted in all their glory. Search the archives. JV ran off when the questions became too technical and focused on Wigans plateu in his haematocrit levels. They should have dropped. Floyd knows this, heck most idiots know this. JV tried to convince those in the particular thread that this was wrong. It's been no shock that Wigans is a charger. Was obvious. At about the same time, a few people in the Clinic started calling out JV's BS and hyperbole. He may fool you, but he ain't fooling most people. Garmin supports dopers. Simple enough. But so do most teams. Why? Because the whole sport is dirty. Few are clean. Every pro rider knows a doper or has worked with one. That is how prolific and widespread doping is. Either accept it or live in denial. You choose.

Funny thing I was watching highlights from the 2006 Tour the other day. First mountain stage in the Pyrenees and Wigans is dropped. Wait, what dropped from what group? The autobus with Stewie O'Grady and McEwen at the front. First climb. Anyone who watched the last decade of cycling knew there was only one way Wigans could compete for GC. Alan Lim's rice cakes.

 

[Galic Ho]

McGee came 8th in the Giro and Boardman came 2nd in the Dauphine, so they could both climb a bit when they put their mind to it.

McGee was on so much hot sauce in 2004 it wasn't funny. Look at that years Giro. Very flat. Cunego won. Need I say more?

 

[andy1234]

McGee was on so much hot sauce in 2004 it wasn't funny. Look at that years Giro. Very flat. Cunego won. Need I say more?

Are you serious?

 

[BikeCentric]

Are you serious?

Yeah, he's correct. That year was the flattest Giro in the last 20 years or so, that's pretty much why Cunego won, that and a fairly weak field and Simoni being a bit old and off his form.

Also, to go back to McGee, he like Wigans lost a ton of weight that year and tried to transform himself from a pursuit rider / Prologue specialist into a GT rider. McGee himself declared that the experiment had failed after his result in that Giro and then went back to being a short TT specialist for the next year or two and then retired.