Landis letter re drug use in cycling

[Animal]

Anyone noticed no Mellow Johnnie's adverts on this page now?

 

[trompe le monde]

Anyone noticed no Mellow Johnnie's adverts on this page now?

I still get them, for now.

 

[CPAvelo]

Fuck off then.

Choice words. Thanks for the contribution.

 

[offbyone]

If they have doped - yes.

And I will add that anyone who has been convicted of 'wilful cheating' can be suspended for 4 years - which Pat McQuaid is on the record as saying this icludes blood boosters like CERA.

Also Levi, with a prior conviction could face an 8 year sanction.

Fair enough, I can agree with that. I guess the problem I have, is that I am not sure how they will handle convicting a current rider of doping 5 years prior. Do you know of any precedents like this?

Nevertheless, none of this matters unless Landis has any real evidence or at least someone credible to corroborate his claims. Even if another credible person steps up, I can't recall any convictions based purely on accusations, credible source or not. I might be wrong on that, please correct me?

If there is no evidence, this is all pointless. I certainly don't think they will start digging up old blood samples and apply new testing techniques. That would create an ugly precedent that I don't think anyone wants.

 

[Barrus]

Anyone noticed no Mellow Johnnie's adverts on this page now?

I still get the trek adverts with Landis prominently in them, but nothing else concerning him anymore. Have we been too critical and will he attack this site?

 

[D Avoid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by offbyone View Post
So, I don't see how digging up skeletons will benefit cycling.



I guess you don't see how revealing decades of child abuse by religious authorities benefits anything either, right?
Reply With Quote


Todays skeletons are actively involved in training and "preparing" tomorrows winners. very simple, if they are there, it will be there, always.

 

[L29205]

If there is no evidence, this is all pointless. I certainly don't think they will start digging up old blood samples and apply new testing techniques. That would create an ugly precedent that I don't think anyone wants.

Retroactive testing for CERA has been quite common. That is the wave of the future.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr29news

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I certainly don't think they will start digging up old blood samples and apply new testing techniques. That would create an ugly precedent that I don't think anyone wants.

The Lance muppets clearly don't want that. You speak for nobody else but yourself. I certainly have no problem with retroactive testing, especially considering the obvious point that the dopers are well ahead of the testers. Knowing that a later test can invalidate an earlier result will provide additional disincentive to cheat.

 

[Red Lobster]

I certainly don't think they will start digging up old blood samples and apply new testing techniques. That would create an ugly precedent that I don't think anyone wants.

I'm trying to learn how to apprpriately use cool forum jargon - is this where I say "epic fail"?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Fair enough, I can agree with that. I guess the problem I have, is that I am not sure how they will handle convicting a current rider of doping 5 years prior. Do you know of any precedents like this?

Nevertheless, none of this matters unless Landis has any real evidence or at least someone credible to corroborate his claims. Even if another credible person steps up, I can't recall any convictions based purely on accusations, credible source or not. I might be wrong on that, please correct me?

If there is no evidence, this is all pointless. I certainly don't think they will start digging up old blood samples and apply new testing techniques. That would create an ugly precedent that I don't think anyone wants.

Actually the only good thing to come out of the "Vrijman Report" was a amendment to the laws regarding retro testing and retro sanctions.

WADA rules now have a staute of limitations of 8 years - anything after is fair game. Thomas Dekker was sanctioned because of retro testing of a 2 year old sample.

 

[Bronstein]

I'm trying to learn how to apprpriately use cool forum jargon - is there where I say "epic fail"?

I think you're just supposed to post an 'epic fail' photo.

 

[doublestandard]

Isn't this WADA doctor talking about retroactive testing based on Landis' accusations?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31751_162-20005568-10391697.html

The question now is: can Landis prove anything he said?

Yes, according to a doping expert.

"It may be that we're going to find people who doped a number of years ago, couldn't find it, now with new detection techniques we can look backwards and find that they did dope in years past," said Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and an expert in the field of drug use in sports.

. . .

"Whether Landis' assertions are correct or not there's no question we're getting better technology to detect prohibited substances that are abused," Wadler said. "We'll be able to look backwards as far back as eight years to see if at the time of a given event when the specimen was collected if there were doping agents in the urine."

 

[gree0232]

Are you going to answer my question are just continue to write long posts which have little substance or relevance?

Did you have a question?

Or were you just planning on reposting my messages?

Or could you finaly make a point or offer a rebuttal? Is this too long for you?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I certainly don't think they will start digging up old blood samples and apply new testing techniques. That would create an ugly precedent that I don't think anyone wants.

 

[offbyone]

The Lance muppets clearly don't want that. You speak for nobody else but yourself. I certainly have no problem with retroactive testing, especially considering the obvious point that the dopers are well ahead of the testers. Knowing that a later test can invalidate an earlier result will provide additional disincentive to cheat.

This has nothing to do with Lance. You would be naive if you didn't realize how rampant doping was in cycling community a decade ago. If we set the precedent that the doping agencies can dig up anyone's old samples and apply new tests to them just because of an accusation or suspicion then we have to apply this standard to all cyclists.

If we did so it would wipe out a generation of palmares. I don't think that is going to do anything positive for cycling.

 

[offbyone]

I have no idea what this means. I am only interested in discussing the points.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I have no idea what this means. I am only interested in discussing the points.

 

[Oldman]

This has nothing to do with Lance. You would be naive if you didn't realize how rampant doping was in cycling community a decade ago. If we set the precedent that the doping agencies can dig up anyone's old samples and apply new tests to them just because of an accusation or suspicion then we have to apply this standard to all cyclists.

If we did so it would wipe out a generation of palmares. I don't think that is going to do anything positive for cycling.

All of those guys made their money and would still keep it. Too bad for their false legacies. It might be the kind of thing that would do everything for cycling and alot of other sports. It might teach kids to play for their health, for starters.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Enough with the fail photos.

Susan

 

[offbyone]

Retroactive testing for CERA has been quite common. That is the wave of the future.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr29news

Interesting, a dangerous development. As I have stated, I personally, don't see the value in retroactive testing from years ago. I would be ok with a 12 month period, but 8 years takes us back to an entirely different time period.

 

[gree0232]

Why do you expect the people here to have the evidence? It has been repeatedly said, this is an internet discussion forum and not a court of law.

Please tone down your aggressiveness.

Thank you.

Susan

Yes, I expect people to have evidence.

I expect people who are accussing other of things to be able to back it up with something more than a blank stare - call me provincial. I expect that if you have read WADA documents, you should also read rider and UCI documents.

Silly me, I expect more than, "Lance is a doper."

I expect that is a country/countries where people are innocent until PROVEN guilty that a disucussion about riders involvement in doping should be able to be discussed reasonably.

And how many lance birthers have insulted just me since I said, "Heh, Lance COULD be doped. But what do we have, In Landis's accussations, that we can actually use?"

THAT is aggressive?

But calling people who have believe in letting the system rather than our opinions prove innocence or guilt is just wrong? Better to let creeping innuendo destroy our sport?

So now I will ask the same question, what has Landis produced to back up his claims? Until then what do we got? Nothing.

THat is MY entirely valid opinion and I am entitled to it as well. Convince me otherwise - that is how a forum works.

 

[asnicol]

Interesting, a dangerous development. As I have stated, I personally, don't see the value in retroactive testing from years ago. I would be ok with a 12 month period, but 8 years takes us back to an entirely different time period.

so you would not like proof beyond doubt that Armstrong was clean/doped? would that not settle the legacy issue?

 

[gree0232]

Moose, we can play your game to. Stick to the subject.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Moose, we can play your game to. Stick to the subject.

Except I don't post self-portraits. Nice try though.

 

[gree0232]

Except I don't post self-portraits. Nice try though.

No worries, we found one from your childhood

Now Moose, would you care to at least TRY and make a case one way or the other? Or would Teddy Roosevelt appeal to you?

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."