Landis to Rock

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Anonymous

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Susan Westemeyer said:
OK everybody, enough with the personal stuff. Get back to discussing cycling, otherwise I will start handing out yellow cards.

Susan
Sorry susan.. we just seem to have a couple of members over the last few days who have decided to criticise everything a regular forum member says and call him a cheat publicly. A few of us have our backs up.

Not often you see me and TFF reading off the same page. Gotta be a reason for it.
 
mikeNphilly said:
Well of course you ignored me. I've noticed you and foodforbrains ignore everyone that dissagrees with your opinions, or call them names, or question their intelligence. I would rather debate ideas, but instead you must just like to read what you type over and over, and not debate.

I guess since you ignored me, you won't see this...darn. Now if I can only get foodforbrains to ignore me..I won't have to take a few seconds and debunk what he says either.

oh and 2006 called, it's wants it video of ignoring someone back.....

Whats to ignore, people have criticised Papp because he cheated and now is talking about what goes on. What would you rather happen, people like Vino, Basso, Ricco who also cheat, are caught, say nothing and then go back to earning a big wage and having a pro career.

Then look at how people like Jaksche, Manzano & Kimmage have been treated becaue they chose to speak put. You do realsie if the UCI and lots of other people had bothered to listen to Kimmage in 1990 when he produced his book and done something, they might have prevented this mess we are in now. Maybe it might have not changed anything but it couldnt have been any worse.

To be honest, I had never heard of Joe Papp before I joined this forum, he was a low level pro who would not have been really known this side of the pond. I didnt know his story, wasnt and aint a fanboy but found his posts on here very interesting, informative and realistic. It wasnt until a few months ago that I bothered to check his back story. Doesnt seem any different from most pros.

In general I dont hammer dopers who are caught because I know there are just as many if not more still getting away with it. When someone like Lance is held up as the shining light in pro cycling, the hypocrisy of people like yourself makes my mind boggle. I also prefer guys to be honest like Papp, Kimmage, Jaksce than try what Tyler Hamilton & Floyd Landis pulled, even though I feel sympathy for the mess they are in now, they put themselves where they are and they lost my respect completely.

As Kimmage says, 20 years after his book, people like yourself are still trying to shoot the messengar.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Then look at how people like Jaksche, Manzano & Kimmage have been treated becaue they chose to speak put. You do realsie if the UCI and lots of other people had bothered to listen to Kimmage in 1990 when he produced his book and done something, they might have prevented this mess we are in now. Maybe it might have not changed anything but it couldnt have been any worse.
Lance most likely wouldn't have won 7 straight TDFs, there would be no Lance Fanboy Nation, and all those folks would have had to stick with watching Monster Trucks and Ultimate Fighting.
So it might have changed a lot.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Whats to ignore, people have criticised Papp because he cheated and now is talking about what goes on. What would you rather happen, people like Vino, Basso, Ricco who also cheat, are caught, say nothing and then go back to earning a big wage and having a pro career.

Then look at how people like Jaksche, Manzano & Kimmage have been treated becaue they chose to speak put. You do realsie if the UCI and lots of other people had bothered to listen to Kimmage in 1990 when he produced his book and done something, they might have prevented this mess we are in now. Maybe it might have not changed anything but it couldnt have been any worse.

To be honest, I had never heard of Joe Papp before I joined this forum, he was a low level pro who would not have been really known this side of the pond. I didnt know his story, wasnt and aint a fanboy but found his posts on here very interesting, informative and realistic. It wasnt until a few months ago that I bothered to check his back story. Doesnt seem any different from most pros.

In general I dont hammer dopers who are caught because I know there are just as many if not more still getting away with it. When someone like Lance is held up as the shining light in pro cycling, the hypocrisy of people like yourself makes my mind boggle. I also prefer guys to be honest like Papp, Kimmage, Jaksce than try what Tyler Hamilton & Floyd Landis pulled, even though I feel sympathy for the mess they are in now, they put themselves where they are and they lost my respect completely.

As Kimmage says, 20 years after his book, people like yourself are still trying to shoot the messengar.
I'm not trying to shoot the messenger, he can blog all he wants. I just think Papp should tell his story(which it seems he has) and try to make PSA's, so to speak, on the dangers of such doping, and help the sport by being a force against doping...not just making unproven claims about anyone that is a hot topic to cycling fans and making unproven claims against riders. Then some fans take his word as truth and it simply is not the truth, only his educated opinion. I wish one rider would come out and not start claiming as soon as the ink on the lab report dries, that well...everyone is else is doing it, here are some random big names...talk about them now, and leave me alone.

I don't respect the dopers at all, but I also try not to make accusations about riders about that have never failed any dope tests. When I read a thread that has Joe Papp stuff in it, it seems as its one of those TMZ shows or something.

I wish all riders that doped worked hard to prevent it after the fact, not try to make every other rider look bad.
 
mikeNphilly said:
I'm not trying to shoot the messenger, he can blog all he wants. I just think Papp should tell his story(which it seems he has) and try to make PSA's, so to speak, on the dangers of such doping, and help the sport by being a force against doping...not just making unproven claims about anyone that is a hot topic to cycling fans and making unproven claims against riders. Then some fans take his word as truth and it simply is not the truth, only his educated opinion. I wish one rider would come out and not start claiming as soon as the ink on the lab report dries, that well...everyone is else is doing it, here are some random big names...talk about them now, and leave me alone.

I don't respect the dopers at all, but I also try not to make accusations about riders about that have never failed any dope tests. When I read a thread that has Joe Papp stuff in it, it seems as its one of those TMZ shows or something.

I wish all riders that doped worked hard to prevent it after the fact, not try to make every other rider look bad.
Well, I think most fans would love to hear names of guys who are doping, personally I dont read his blog, I dont think he accuses anybody else but perhaps I am wrong on that, he seems to join in with discussions as they develop and helps confirm what we already suspects about methods etc.

I hear what you are saying about how appropiate this is. I suppose it could be argued that Papp is just a member or the public now like ourselves and is entitled to his own opinion, he has no interest in keeping the Ometra. He werent a big name pro, Too many people know who does what but say nothing and I understand that also but its a big part of the reason doping will always continue.

Personally, I dont need to wait on people failing dope tests to judge. It frustrates me when people accuse pros of doping for no other reason that they are winning or just actually pro but I keep an open mind. Suspicious performances are well suspicious and almost always rumours through the grapevine are true. I have learned that myself firsthand.

Until ometra is busted wide open, nothing will change.
 
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Anonymous

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"Originally Posted by mikeNphilly
Well of course you ignored me. I've noticed you and the drunk bus driver(foodforbrains) ."

Thats ten steps over the line dude.. far to ****ing far... your out of order.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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dimspace said:
Has the Joe Papp hate club joined the forum recently or something?

Qualifying requirments: IQ of 37
If a rider on PED's, not yet caught in the flimsy WADA/CONI/AFLD-net, would step forward and denounce his actions, beforehand, break the omertà and really spill the beans, I'd be impressed and laud his actions. I'd probably lap up anything he'd say.
If, however, a rider use PED's for 10yrs plus, gets caught big-time and finds himself suddenly out-of-work, knowing f***-all about anything else than anything cycling-related, suddenly finds a new market and a career as a newborn anti-doping-and-widely-read cycling author, writing extensively about his experiences in the professional peloton, gaining new employment as a diarist for cyclingnews.com, writing training advice columns, product reviews and route guides as well as appearing in print in publications like VeloNews, Ride Magazine, Bike Culture and Cycling Times, then, I'm kinda underwhelmed.

Now, if this means that i've got an IQ of 37, then so be it. You'd be wrong making such an assumption though. It's about ethics, and even the dumbest low-life crook has a sense of morality, a code of conduct or a set of beliefs distinguishing between right and wrong.
 
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Anonymous

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hektoren said:
If a rider on PED's, not yet caught in the flimsy WADA/CONI/AFLD-net, would step forward and denounce his actions, beforehand, break the omertà and really spill the beans, I'd be impressed and laud his actions. I'd probably lap up anything he'd say.
If, however, a rider use PED's for 10yrs plus, gets caught big-time and finds himself suddenly out-of-work, knowing f***-all about anything else than anything cycling-related, suddenly finds a new market and a career as a newborn anti-doping-and-widely-read cycling author, writing extensively about his experiences in the professional peloton, gaining new employment as a diarist for cyclingnews.com, writing training advice columns, product reviews and route guides as well as appearing in print in publications like VeloNews, Ride Magazine, Bike Culture and Cycling Times, then, I'm kinda underwhelmed.

Now, if this means that i've got an IQ of 37, then so be it. You'd be wrong making such an assumption though. It's about ethics, and even the dumbest low-life crook has a sense of morality, a code of conduct or a set of beliefs distinguishing between right and wrong.
You might consider checking the dates on some of the online articles you present as being current jobs for Joe. You can use a paper towel to wipe off the egg.
 
hektoren said:
If a rider on PED's, not yet caught in the flimsy WADA/CONI/AFLD-net, would step forward and denounce his actions, beforehand, break the omertà and really spill the beans, I'd be impressed and laud his actions. I'd probably lap up anything he'd say.
That would be Frankie Andreu, Jesus Manzano and the US juniors in David Walsh's manuscripts, then?
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
You might consider checking the dates on some of the online articles you present as being current jobs for Joe. You can use a paper towel to wipe off the egg.
"Current" jobs? Where did I indicate that I was referring to current employment rather than the whole post-proven-guilty-period?
Egg? Paper towels? The ability to read and actually comprehend what you're reading is an underestimated quality, and far beneath egg-throwing precision, of course, in your neck of the woods. The Neander valley, is it?
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:
That would be Frankie Andreu, Jesus Manzano and the US juniors in David Walsh's manuscripts, then?
I'd rather have Frankie Andreu, Jesus Manzano and the US juniors' manuscripts.
"As interpreted by" David Walsh doesn't quite cut it.
 
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Anonymous

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hektoren said:
If a rider on PED's, not yet caught in the flimsy WADA/CONI/AFLD-net, would step forward and denounce his actions, beforehand, break the omertà and really spill the beans, I'd be impressed and laud his actions. I'd probably lap up anything he'd say.
If, however, a rider use PED's for 10yrs plus, gets caught big-time and finds himself suddenly out-of-work, knowing f***-all about anything else than anything cycling-related, suddenly finds a new market and a career as a newborn anti-doping-and-widely-read cycling author, writing extensively about his experiences in the professional peloton, gaining new employment as a diarist for cyclingnews.com, writing training advice columns, product reviews and route guides as well as appearing in print in publications like VeloNews, Ride Magazine, Bike Culture and Cycling Times, then, I'm kinda underwhelmed.

Now, if this means that i've got an IQ of 37, then so be it. You'd be wrong making such an assumption though. It's about ethics, and even the dumbest low-life crook has a sense of morality, a code of conduct or a set of beliefs distinguishing between right and wrong.
Hey douchebag, check the dates and then take a writing class because you are not very good at expressing your opinion. Why wouldn't I think you were talking about current jobs (you know, the ones after he was busted)? Just because it was updated in 2009 does not mean that was when it was written: http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/joe-papp

Gee, who would have thought you didn't know what you were talking about?
 
flicker said:
I am sure that Tyler and Floyd feel betrayed.
Betrayed by whom, exactly? They were the ones who figured "let me leave Armstrong's side, and with the doping knowledge I have acquired I can be a Tour champion also". They made a pack with the same Devil as Armstrong, except he has profited handsomely from it and they have failed miserably in more ways than one-bankruptcy, divorces, and careers left in tatters with hardly the means to pick up and do something else for a living.


flicker said:
I do think that Floyd has an amazingly cynical sense of humor. I do not think he is a malicious individual and a tell all book would be malicious.
So the phone call made by his manager to Lemond, ridiculing his sexual abuse history, that was just Floyd's cynical sense of humor, right? The dude grew up in Pennsylvania amongst the most humorless, tightly wound bunch of people in America. That atmosphere is not exactly a petri dish for sarcastic comedy.


flicker said:
I mean where would it start, where would it end? Floyd was the turkey who hired that dumb body guard that threatened Greg LeMond right?
No, Floyd was the turkey who got caught doping and has had to pay the price. The fact that he's living in a van down by the river further highlights the fact that without doping, his natural abilities are those of a B-list domestic pro AT BEST.

By the way, the guy who made the phone call to Lemond was not Floyd's bodyguard. He was Floyd's manager. And the phone call was made at Floyd's behest. In fact, Floyd was standing right by his side when the phone call was made.


flicker said:
I think that Floyd has learned not to be a doofus through his unsuccessful fight with WADA, bankruptcy divorce etc.
That is quite a list of personal failings to navigate all for the sake of personal enlightenment, don't you think?

It usually wouldn't take most rational, grounded human beings such a long list of self-perpetuated disasters to come to some sort of conclusion about oneself.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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djconnel said:
I thought drug talk was forbidden on this forum?

If someone wants to discuss whether Landis is on Rock Racing or not, I'm all ears.
I hope that he is, Rock being my favorite US racing team...would love to see Landis like he did last year lead the peleton up the The Wall in Philly in Rock gear. Was funny when he had the OUCH kit, alot of the spectators were saying "OUCH that would be what I would be yelling if I had to climb this street on a bike"

I'm not sure they will even have a team...well maybe if that Mexican team saves them, but I hope Rock will race in Philly this year, at least.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Hey douchebag, check the dates and then take a writing class because you are not very good at expressing your opinion. Why wouldn't I think you were talking about current jobs (you know, the ones after he was busted)? Just because it was updated in 2009 does not mean that was when it was written: http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/joe-papp

Gee, who would have thought you didn't know what you were talking about?
Big on invectives, short on substance, are we?
I realize I've trod on extremely tender and big toes here, but nothing, absolutely nothing, in what I've written is really controversial.

Or do you really think that a guy looking for a job and a newfound vocation after a ten year stint as a cyclist, having had ample opportunity to ponder the moral ins-and-outs of PEDs for a decade while shooting, snorting, imbibing or whatever, ie. in short - cheating, and in fact making a decent living from it, and suddenly, after the fact, when you're caught doping, suddenly decides to spill the beans and make a living from that, is, in a moral sense, anywhere as impressive as a guy setting the record straight from the get-go?

If you do, you belong in a museum.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
hektoren said:
Big on invectives, short on substance, are we?
I realize I've trod on extremely tender and big toes here, but nothing, absolutely nothing, in what I've written is really controversial.

Or do you really think that a guy looking for a job and a newfound vocation after a ten year stint as a cyclist, having had ample opportunity to ponder the moral ins-and-outs of PEDs for a decade while shooting, snorting, imbibing or whatever, ie. in short - cheating, and in fact making a decent living from it, and suddenly, after the fact, when you're caught doping, suddenly decides to spill the beans and make a living from that, is, in a moral sense, anywhere as impressive as a guy setting the record straight from the get-go?

If you do, you belong in a museum.
Some people cannot admit they are wrong You are one of them. Why is it that there is peloton filled with dopers who were caught and didn't admit anything, (well, except that it was their first time, there was a twin, not my blood, my urine was spiked by evil Frechmen, etc., etc., etc.) yet you post on a fan site for cycling? Again, you and the two other a$$hats that have posted here in the past week about this all pick out the guy that opened the door on the secret world of which we rarely get a glimpse. Funny, didn't Joe just post something about Landis and The Uniballer being scared of a book? Hmm....then you douchebags show up.
 
mikeNphilly said:
I hope that he is, Rock being my favorite US racing team...would love to see Landis like he did last year lead the peleton up the The Wall in Philly in Rock gear. Was funny when he had the OUCH kit, alot of the spectators were saying "OUCH that would be what I would be yelling if I had to climb this street on a bike"

I'm not sure they will even have a team...well maybe if that Mexican team saves them, but I hope Rock will race in Philly this year, at least.
Mexican team?
The Contentpolis-AMPO-Murcia team are from Spain.
They have to take out a Mexican licence and therefore have 50% of their riders from Mexico.
Not much room for Floyd, with existing contracts.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Some people cannot admit they are wrong You are one of them. Why is it that thetr id s peloton filled with dopers who were caught and didn't admit anything, (well, except that it was their first time, there was a twin, not my blood, my urine was spiked by evil Frechmen, etc., etc., etc.) yet you post on a fan site for cycling. Again, you and the two other a$$hats that have posted here in the past week about this all pick out the guy that opened the door on the secret world of which we rarely get a glimpse. Funny, didn't Joe just post something about Landis and The Uniballer being scared of a book? Hmm....then you douchebags show up.
I don't have any problem at all admitting when I'm wrong. In fact, as a scientist, I'm conditioned to enjoy the fact that my theories are proven wrong, my points to be moot, my life, acquaintances, allegiances etc. to be open for close scrutiny. That's the way science is advanced! Science asks a lot of questions, and we're not sure we can find an answer. Religion has a lot of answers you can't question. Seems to me that Joe Papp is an apostle to you.

If you read what I've written closely, you'll find that I've made a wish; that we'd get a full disclosure from within the peloton from a guy who doesn't necessarily need to make a living from his disclosures. That's all, really.

Joe has told us a lot. I agree. Completely. I follow his blog, I'm familiar with his palmares, extracurricular activities, genealogy etc. I'm not anti-Joe. I'm grateful for his revealing insights etc. etc. BUT: I'd be a fool, and forget my scientist training if I were to read Joe's comments as the gospel truth. In that sense I'd prefer the revelations from someone on the inside, having no financial gain from their testimonies. Too tough to understand for you?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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hektoren said:
I don't have any problem at all admitting when I'm wrong. In fact, as a scientist, I'm conditioned to enjoy the fact that my theories are proven wrong, my points to be moot, my life, acquaintances, allegiances etc. to be open for close scrutiny. That's the way science is advanced! Science asks a lot of questions, and we're not sure we can find an answer. Religion has a lot of answers you can't question. Seems to me that Joe Papp is an apostle to you.
You are a poor scientist, Dr. Hektoren.

 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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Originally Posted by flicker
I am sure that Tyler and Floyd feel betrayed.
Betrayed by whom, exactly? They were the ones who figured "let me leave Armstrong's side, and with the doping knowledge I have acquired I can be a Tour champion also". They made a pack with the same Devil as Armstrong, except he has profited handsomely from it and they have failed miserably in more ways than one-bankruptcy, divorces, and careers left in tatters with hardly the means to pick up and do something else for a living.

Berzin it is quite refreshing to meet a person of such high moral character as yourself. I am sure that if you left the moral high ground you might understand that some cheat and are in denial. It seems many PRO athletes whom we follow practice those traits.
 
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