- Jul 23, 2009
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durianrider said:
LOL, GMO high fructose corn syrup??? How does either the BT gene (causes bugs to get tummy aches) or the gene for glyphosate resistance (resistance to "round-up") impact how the body uses fructose? First off, you assume that the GMO genes would make it all the way through the intense processing of corn sugar into fructose and that "high" fructose content of corn syrup (which is 50%, much less that the fructose content of honey) causes well.... what does it cause?
.
Eat meat!
That's right you pussies! Eat meat, drink beer and sleep with really ugly women! Take drugs, no regrets!
Lance
That's right you pussies! Eat meat, drink beer and sleep with really ugly women! Take drugs, no regrets!
Lance
- Jun 16, 2009
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barn yard said:
ouch - our daughter was just diagnosed with concerningly low(ish) B12 in a bloodtest a week or two ago and her level was well into the 120s...
The doctor at the time said that B12 was a difficult one because it doesn't really matter how much is in the food item or supplement, its how it is presented and how the body deals with it that matters. meaning that you can have a particular food that is very high in B12 but your body may only absorb 1% of it or less, apparently..... thats why a lot of athletes take an injection - the pills do nothing useful
- Aug 16, 2009
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- Mar 18, 2009
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barn yard said:
lostintime said:
Did you not read the article? (I quoted barn yard´s post just in case you missed it...)
Regardless of whether or not you think B12 is found or not found in animal foods is not the point.
The fact that our resident expert vegan has dangerously low B12 is.
As the Doctor´s say in the article....da blood don´t lie
flyor64 said:
Dated 2007
He gets B12 shots now . . . Just like many professional athletes do. Massive meat eating cyclists too.
B12 is a mystery to everyone. It's not a vegan problem . . . it's a problem for people of all diets. Ask 12 "experts" about how it's produced and utilized in the body , you'll get 12 answers.
- Apr 29, 2010
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lostintime said:
How is it a "mystery" to everyone? That sounds like a bit of a cop out from the very fair criticism that vegan diets lack any food derived source of an essential vitamin.
B12 synthesis is an epic accomplishment of organic synthesis. No plant or animal can complete all the steps necessary. Only the ultimate chemists, bacteria can make B12. Many of these little guys live in the rumens of tasty animals I like to eat, making their tissues rich sources of B12. B12 synthesis occurs in the distal human gut (colon, can't absorb), so your stool should be a good vegan source.
Rip:30 said:
How is it a "mystery" to everyone? That sounds like a bit of a cop out from the very fair criticism that vegan diets lack any food derived source of an essential vitamin.
B12 synthesis is an epic accomplishment of organic synthesis. No plant or animal can complete all the steps necessary. Only the ultimate chemists, bacteria can make B12. Many of these little guys live in the rumens of tasty animals I like to eat, making their tissues rich sources of B12. B12 synthesis occurs in the distal human gut (colon, can't absorb), so your stool should be a good vegan source.
It's not just about getting B12 , it's weather or not it's absorbed. Millions of people are lacking from not only diet, but lack of absorption. Why some people's guts make more, some less. Some absorb the little they have(and remain healthy) , better than those that have plenty but don't absorb it. there's the mystery. Lots of theories .... no truths
- Apr 29, 2010
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lostintime said:
No I don't think it's fair to characterize B12 deficiency as some randomly distriubuted phenomona. Rather, it's strongly tied to vegetarianism.
And regardless of the varibility in absrobsion efficiency, if you have zero B12 in your diet, i.e. plants only, then you are left only with what ever the microflora in your small intestine can produce. This is just not enough for most.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v283/n5749/abs/283781a0.html
http://www.ajcn.org/content/78/1/3.short
http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/5/1693S.abstract
- Mar 18, 2009
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lostintime said:
Again, I think you miss the point...and am starting to wonder if you are missing it on purpose.
That the article is from 2007 is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that he comes on here and preaches the gospel of veganism with zeal. He is purposefully obtuse when one attempts to have an honest conversation, spouts silly sayings about "leadership", but fails to mention that his diet can be directly attributed to his frightening low B12 count.
Fails to mention that he has to supplement his wonderful diet with shots so that he isn´t susceptible to anaemia, blurry vision and loss of feeling in the hands and feet in the long term(just like the pros do
)...But that if one just eats 30 bananas a day and stops using deodorant one will rock it...
FWIW the other guy on the other extreme, eating kilos of meat a day, was also at risk for all kinds of nasty stuff to happen to him as well.
I think the point was balance. It would appear one doesn´t get balance in one´s pure raw diet.
I understand already that you´ll dismiss this post just as you have in the past...It´s all good, one defends what one believes in.
I have nothing to defend here friends. I offer my perspective , you yours. I learn something from every reply. Hopefully we all do. If we don't share our thoughts . . we're stuck. . who wants that ?
This is not a battle of who knows best . . because no one has a lock on that. . .and to think there is . . is pure foolishness. That said . . we're all fools anyways ! . . . and if you can't see the humor in that ... you're even more foolish
This is not a battle of who knows best . . because no one has a lock on that. . .and to think there is . . is pure foolishness. That said . . we're all fools anyways ! . . . and if you can't see the humor in that ... you're even more foolish
- Jun 16, 2009
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rather than diving for the high ground and pretending you are the only one standing on it, how about you actually discuss the topic? you went straight to outright dismissal of the point and have yet to actually contribute - whereas the people you are claiming are ignoring truth, etc, et raised a very simple and valid point:
"How absurd is it to be spamming the internet with - I am greate because I am a vegan - and not adress the reality that there is clearly something wrong if you are needing to inject a vitamin to maintain your supposedly perfect lifestyle"
Nobody came here and claimed the only solution was to bite the behinds of live cattle - they merely said that B12 was missing from his food pyramid.
How about instead of going the route we are, and presenting false informatino such as randomness of B12 ingestion, we try and actually talk about the question - how can a vegan diet provide sufficient B12 for an ordinary person without supplementation?
"How absurd is it to be spamming the internet with - I am greate because I am a vegan - and not adress the reality that there is clearly something wrong if you are needing to inject a vitamin to maintain your supposedly perfect lifestyle"
Nobody came here and claimed the only solution was to bite the behinds of live cattle - they merely said that B12 was missing from his food pyramid.
How about instead of going the route we are, and presenting false informatino such as randomness of B12 ingestion, we try and actually talk about the question - how can a vegan diet provide sufficient B12 for an ordinary person without supplementation?
Martin318is said:
Fair enough.
B12 absorption is a real issue for everyone, it's not smoke and mirrors. Talk to doctors, don't take my words for it. Same for the actual availability of it in foods.
One does not need to resort to injections, there's plenty of supplements to take orally.
http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html
http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html
http://www.fruitnut.net/HTML/201_Article_B12.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/029531_vitamin_B12_vegan.html
http://www.cqfz.net/articles/the-vitamin-b12-deficiency-myth-in-vegan-diets.html
http://vrindavan.xanga.com/731936174/vegan-vitamin-b12-deficiency-is-a-myth/
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0301/p979.html
- Apr 29, 2010
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lostintime said:
B12 deficiency is not a problem for everyone. Most of us don't have autoimmune disorders like pernicious anemia or crohn's disease.
The one peer-reviewed article you site is just talking about different assays for B12 status in the blood and about how Prilosec might play a role in decreasing absorption efficiency.
Their only mention of veganism: (aafp article)
"NUTRITIONAL DEFICIENCY
Dietary sources of vitamin B12 are primarily meats and dairy products. In a typical Western diet, a person obtains approximately 5 to 15 mcg of vitamin B12 daily, much more than the recommended daily allowance of 2 mcg. Normally, humans maintain a large vitamin B12 reserve, which can last two to five years even in the presence of severe malab-sorption.14 Nevertheless, nutritional deficiency can occur in specific populations. Elderly patients with “tea and toast” diets and chronic alcoholics are at especially high risk. The dietary limitations of strict vegans make them another, less common at-risk population."
Your point that there are multiple causes of B12 deficiency is true, but takes nothing away from the fact that a vegan diet is always lacking in B12. There's no inexplicable myth about that, sorry.
- Jul 23, 2009
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Exactly. Amazing how the sermon totally missed what the gospel was actually about.flyor64 said:
- Jun 16, 2009
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lostintime said:
Yet, as is highlighted in the post above, the "everyone" you are talking about clearly musn't be the real "everyone".
Nobody in my family, nor anyone that I know has ever needed a vitamin injection. That is a huge range of diets and attitudes to foods and yet NONE of that "everybody" has ever been low enough to need directed B12 supplementation.
The literature shows that if you have any one of a huge range of sensible diets you won't have a problem but if you restrict your diet you will. Veganism is a clearly restrictive diet as evidenced by its specific referencing.
I would love to hear what Durianrider says about all this in the context of his pontificating on the subject
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