Look at me, I am a Vegan! Can I persuade you to become one too?

[Boeing]

all that aside the readability of this place as declined since he left

 

[Polyarmour]

How about instead of going the route we are, and presenting false informatino such as randomness of B12 ingestion, we try and actually talk about the question - how can a vegan diet provide sufficient B12 for an ordinary person without supplementation?

Plant eating animals get their B12 from ingesting bacteria that live in the soil. That is, when they eat plant matter they take in a small amount of soil with it which contains the B12 producing bacteria. That's where it comes from, it doesn't just magically appear in animal flesh. If humans ate unwashed vegetables and plants it would have the same effect. But we don't do that anymore. We sterilise the hell out of it before ingesting it. So supplements are required to make up for the lack of dirt on our food.

 

[Rip:30]

Plant eating animals get their B12 from ingesting bacteria that live in the soil. That is, when they eat plant matter they take in a small amount of soil with it which contains the B12 producing bacteria. That's where it comes from, it doesn't just magically appear in animal flesh. If humans ate unwashed vegetables and plants it would have the same effect. But we don't do that anymore. We sterilise the hell out of it before ingesting it. So supplements are required to make up for the lack of dirt on our food.

Totally incorrect.

Ruminants get most their B12 from their gut bacteria. Washing veggies has no effect.

 

[Polyarmour]

Totally incorrect.

Ruminants get most their B12 from their gut bacteria. Washing veggies has no effect.

There was a study on vegan Hindus who do not suffer from B12 deficiency that concluded they obtained their B12 from small insects, larvae, faeces, residue left on the plant food they consumed.

HL Abrams. Vegetarianism: An Anthropological/Nutritional Evaluation, J Appl Nutr, 1980, 32:2:53-87;

 

[BroDeal]

There was a study on vegan Hindus who do not suffer from B12 deficiency that concluded they obtained their B12 from small insects, larvae, faeces, residue left on the plant food they consumed.

Oh, yeah. That will convince a lot of people to become vegans. You cannot eat animals but
small insects, larvae, and faeces are a-okay.

 

[durianrider]

When people say 'you cant be a vegan cos you get a b12 deficiency' its like saying 'you cant ride a bicycle cos you will get a flat tyre so you should drive a car, truck or catch a bus like everyone else!'.

Cos ONLY bicycles get flat tyres right?
Cos ONLY vegans have b12 issues right?

Ive been a 'tour guide' for the last 7 January's in Adelaide during Tour Down Under and in recent years Ive asked various riders, team doctors, team assistants etc if they use B12 injections and 100% of those asked, said 'yes, this is normal'.

So what is peoples reply to this then? If b12 deficiency is ONLY found in vegans, how come your heroes on wheels are taking them? How come when one browses on running/bodybuilding forums and types 'b12' into the search function, it comes up with pages of stuff? Even at 'getbig.com' they rate b12 injections. http://www.getbig.com/articles/faq-vit1.htm How come bodybuiders eat so much animal stuff yet they also use the most b12/protein/zinc supps of any demographic group? Dont believe me, go ask the 6ft bicep standing in the corner of your local gym.

How come? Cos 39% of the US has a b12 deficiency. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm

Japan has a minimum cut off of 550. In Australia/US its around 150. So you can be 'ok' at home but if you live in Japan, you are 'chronically deficient'. Brings a new term to the meaning 'Ive got enough b12 cos the doc said so'.

Read the book 'could it be B12' by Sally Pacholok and I challenge anyone not to be concerned about your current b12 levels REGARDLESS of what you eat.

Hey, Im riding the fastest of my life. Rode a 14:06 up Norton Summit. Been vegan 10 years last week and also ran the fastest half marathon of my life. Guess who is in 8th. http://www.sarrc.asn.au/images/event_results/Clare Final Results11.pdf


My b12 level hovers between 800-1400. My homocysteine is around 6-8. My haemoglobin is around 147-155. What levels do others have here? Google 'vegan blood tests' if you want to see em on youtube.

How do you know your diet is working if your blood tests and drug free performances aint supporting it? Thats something to think about.

I gave a health & fitness talk to 160 people recently in Melbourne. Here is a brief vid.

http://youtu.be/nzSJ3BUn8BM

 

[Polyarmour]

Oh, yeah. That will convince a lot of people to become vegans. You cannot eat animals but
small insects, larvae, and faeces are a-okay.

Now don't be squeamish BroDeal. 3rd world vegans don't have the luxury of running water to wash their food. On the other hand 3rd world meat eaters tuck into heart, liver, kidney, brains, eyeballs, noses, ears, hoofs and stomach linings. And that's after it has been hanging in the midday sun at the local butcher with only the flies for company. Take your pick.

 

[Rip:30]

When people say 'you cant be a vegan cos you get a b12 deficiency' its like saying 'you cant ride a bicycle cos you will get a flat tyre so you should drive a car, truck or catch a bus like everyone else!'.

Cos ONLY bicycles get flat tyres right?
Cos ONLY vegans have b12 issues right?

Ive been a 'tour guide' for the last 7 January's in Adelaide during Tour Down Under and in recent years Ive asked various riders, team doctors, team assistants etc if they use B12 injections and 100% of those asked, said 'yes, this is normal'.

So what is peoples reply to this then? If b12 deficiency is ONLY found in vegans, how come your heroes on wheels are taking them? How come when one browses on running/bodybuilding forums and types 'b12' into the search function, it comes up with pages of stuff? Even at 'getbig.com' they rate b12 injections. http://www.getbig.com/articles/faq-vit1.htm How come bodybuiders eat so much animal stuff yet they also use the most b12/protein/zinc supps of any demographic group? Dont believe me, go ask the 6ft bicep standing in the corner of your local gym.

How come? Cos 39% of the US has a b12 deficiency. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm

Japan has a minimum cut off of 550. In Australia/US its around 150. So you can be 'ok' at home but if you live in Japan, you are 'chronically deficient'. Brings a new term to the meaning 'Ive got enough b12 cos the doc said so'.

Read the book 'could it be B12' by Sally Pacholok and I challenge anyone not to be concerned about your current b12 levels REGARDLESS of what you eat.

Hey, Im riding the fastest of my life. Rode a 14:06 up Norton Summit. Been vegan 10 years last week and also ran the fastest half marathon of my life. Guess who is in 8th. http://www.sarrc.asn.au/images/event_results/Clare Final Results11.pdf


My b12 level hovers between 800-1400. My homocysteine is around 6-8. My haemoglobin is around 147-155. What levels do others have here? Google 'vegan blood tests' if you want to see em on youtube.

How do you know your diet is working if your blood tests and drug free performances aint supporting it? Thats something to think about.

I gave a health & fitness talk to 160 people recently in Melbourne. Here is a brief vid.

http://youtu.be/nzSJ3BUn8BM

2/5s of US pop is B12 "deficient". No, try reading the article you linked to that's not what they claim at all.

Bodybuilders take a supplement therefore it's good for you somehow. Really??? Bodybuilders love sups, they'll take anything you tell them might make them bigger.

You're in good shape after 10 years of being vegan and riding bikes. Great have a vegan cookie, which are delicious BTW. I'm in shape too. It's because of training not just because of diet.

The fact stands that B12 cannot be obtained from an all plant diet, if you exclude feces, without supplementation. That's just how how it is. Nobody's saying you can't live as vegan in todays world. Sure some meat eaters also suffer from B12 problems, but most don't. There are multiple causes of this deficiency, but so what? Veganism is still one of them.

 

[Barracuda]

When people say 'you cant be a vegan cos you get a b12 deficiency' its like saying 'you cant ride a bicycle cos you will get a flat tyre so you should drive a car, truck or catch a bus like everyone else!'.

Cos ONLY bicycles get flat tyres right?
Cos ONLY vegans have b12 issues right?

Ive been a 'tour guide' for the last 7 January's in Adelaide during Tour Down Under and in recent years Ive asked various riders, team doctors, team assistants etc if they use B12 injections and 100% of those asked, said 'yes, this is normal'.

So what is peoples reply to this then? If b12 deficiency is ONLY found in vegans, how come your heroes on wheels are taking them? How come when one browses on running/bodybuilding forums and types 'b12' into the search function, it comes up with pages of stuff? Even at 'getbig.com' they rate b12 injections. http://www.getbig.com/articles/faq-vit1.htm How come bodybuiders eat so much animal stuff yet they also use the most b12/protein/zinc supps of any demographic group? Dont believe me, go ask the 6ft bicep standing in the corner of your local gym.

How come? Cos 39% of the US has a b12 deficiency. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm

Japan has a minimum cut off of 550. In Australia/US its around 150. So you can be 'ok' at home but if you live in Japan, you are 'chronically deficient'. Brings a new term to the meaning 'Ive got enough b12 cos the doc said so'.

Read the book 'could it be B12' by Sally Pacholok and I challenge anyone not to be concerned about your current b12 levels REGARDLESS of what you eat.

Hey, Im riding the fastest of my life. Rode a 14:06 up Norton Summit. Been vegan 10 years last week and also ran the fastest half marathon of my life. Guess who is in 8th. http://www.sarrc.asn.au/images/event_results/Clare Final Results11.pdf


My b12 level hovers between 800-1400. My homocysteine is around 6-8. My haemoglobin is around 147-155. What levels do others have here? Google 'vegan blood tests' if you want to see em on youtube.

How do you know your diet is working if your blood tests and drug free performances aint supporting it? Thats something to think about.

I gave a health & fitness talk to 160 people recently in Melbourne. Here is a brief vid.

http://youtu.be/nzSJ3BUn8BM

Actually watched the attached you tube clip ...... good message overall ..... just finding the "fit" for one's circumstances is the challenging part...... however I definately feel better after a caeser salad than a steak and chips though..... I am looking at all and every "alternative" to standard fair after having 4 weeks off work with a herniated disc at C7 .... diet related issues need to improve albeit not to the extreme of veganism .... definately more water ... and definately more fruit ..... but believe meat still has its place on occasion also.....

 

[David12]

I could never grasp counting calories, and when I ride in the whole pattern / dragon by need of food, I eat the night before, after, so I can go. Complicated and out of counting calories, especially when you turn off in the shower, cycling, walking out the door to work, no time to prepare, you need to prepare for the World Health Assembly. I know you who weigh their food and cooking, and be prepared to spend a few hours. That.Watch pretend I can never do anything from simple, such as candybars, soft drinks, ice cream, sugar blues it makes you feel great for 20 minutes. As long as the main component of dietary fruits and vegetables, everything will be out of work.

 

[Granville57]

If b12 deficiency is ONLY found in vegans, how come your heroes on wheels are taking them? How come when one browses on running/bodybuilding forums and types 'b12' into the search function, it comes up with pages of stuff? Even at 'getbig.com' they rate b12 injections.

You're joking, right?
That should be our standard? Whatever pro riders are injecting themselves with, and what the meat-heads at getbig.com are comfortable with?

Been vegan 10 years last week and also ran the fastest half marathon of my life. Guess who is in 8th.

Congratulations, Flash. I've got ten years on you and I can run the same time...fueled by dead animals.

 

[Martin318is]

When people say 'you cant be a vegan cos you get a b12 deficiency'

Got to admit, I am pretty disappointed that this is what you chose to come back with after all that time to think of a reply to the information that was posted. The article that was posted indicated that you personally had the lowest B12 level they had clinically tested.

The questions therefore - ignoring silly things like referencing bodybuilders etc - are:

1) how do you explain YOUR low B12? and
2) how does a vegan ensure they are keeping their own level of B12 sufficiently high - WIHTOUT supplementation?

 

[lostintime]

The verbal mas-debation goes on and on .....


Some don't want to believe they can be eating animal foods and still be deficient in B12.

Some don't want to believe they can be vegan and be deficient in B12.


The bottom line is there is no ultimate ... definitive answer to the B12 question. It all comes down to beliefs. Choose whatever you wish. . . . but don't think you're somehow superior because you eat animal stuff or not. We're all beings having a human experience. Nobody really knows jack ...... and that's for sure

 

[Rip:30]

The verbal mas-debation goes on and on .....


Some don't want to believe they can be eating animal foods and still be deficient in B12.

Some don't want to believe they can be vegan and be deficient in B12.


The bottom line is there is no ultimate ... definitive answer to the B12 question. It all comes down to beliefs. Choose whatever you wish. . . . but don't think you're somehow superior because you eat animal stuff or not. We're all beings having a human experience. Nobody really knows jack ...... and that's for sure

Belief has nothing to do with B12 deficiencies. Saying nobody really knows is completely ridiculous, there's decades of peer reviewed literature out there. As I keep stating, there are several causes of B12 deficiency--not eating any B12 is one of them (ig vegan diet). It's not that confusing.

No one's saying you can't be vegan, just pointing out the fact that vegan diets lack an essential nutrient, unless you include feces. Obviously you can easily overcome this with supplements. My original reason for making this point was to highlight that humans did not evolve on a vegan diet, as someone tried to suggest.

 

[lostintime]

Belief has nothing to do with B12 deficiencies. Saying nobody really knows is completely ridiculous, there's decades of peer reviewed literature out there. As I keep stating, there are several causes of B12 deficiency--not eating any B12 is one of them (ig vegan diet). It's not that confusing.

No one's saying you can't be vegan, just pointing out the fact that vegan diets lack an essential nutrient, unless you include feces. Obviously you can easily overcome this with supplements. My original reason for making this point was to highlight that humans did not evolve on a vegan diet, as someone tried to suggest.

I respect your opinion.... but don't agree at all. There are so many opinions .... and that's all a peer review is .... it makes the head spin.

Yes.. you can be a vegan and not be B12 deficient .. and not take supplements. Forward to the 6:00 minute mark ..... if you feel like it.
http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2010...ve-and-painful-teeth-with-dr-jameth-sheridan/

Even if one does take B12 supplements .... the benefits far outweigh any perceived hit to the ego.

Man has evolved .... we've evolved so far we no longer need to eat animal foods if we choose. Just because grandpa and some of his descendants ate animal foods doesn't mean I must. I think the world will continue to evolve just fine.

 

[durianrider]

Got to admit, I am pretty disappointed that this is what you chose to come back with after all that time to think of a reply to the information that was posted. The article that was posted indicated that you personally had the lowest B12 level they had clinically tested.

The questions therefore - ignoring silly things like referencing bodybuilders etc - are:

1) how do you explain YOUR low B12? and
2) how does a vegan ensure they are keeping their own level of B12 sufficiently high - WIHTOUT supplementation?

1. Well with my levels around 800-1400,I dont have any b12 issues anymore and how come Im the only one here with bloodtests on youtube proving so lol!?

What are people doing here to ensure their b12 is high enough so they have sufficient red blood cell formation etc? Anyone got any levels to share with me? What are people here doing to lower their homocysteine? Anyone?

2. Its the same question for ANYONE regardless of diet. Why? Well how do we explain the low levels in the tests like the Framingham study etc that showed meat eaters having low b12 serum levels and elevated homocysteine? Interesting. So thinking you can eat dead animals and be fine with your b12/homocysteine is like thinking because you wear a seatbelt that you wont have an accident.

Something to think about..

After that TV show I did more tests. Turns out I lack intrinsic factor. Turns out thats got nothing to do with a deficiency of dead animals on my plate. Turns out I could have died or had some serious issues if I didnt find this out. So yeah, being vegan has saved my life in a few clinical instances. Same for many others too.

Great books to read.

 

[Rip:30]

I respect your opinion.... but don't agree at all. There are so many opinions .... and that's all a peer review is .... it makes the head spin.

Yes.. you can be a vegan and not be B12 deficient .. and not take supplements. Forward to the 6:00 minute mark ..... if you feel like it.
http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2010...ve-and-painful-teeth-with-dr-jameth-sheridan/

Even if one does take B12 supplements .... the benefits far outweigh any perceived hit to the ego.

Man has evolved .... we've evolved so far we no longer need to eat animal foods if we choose. Just because grandpa and some of his descendants ate animal foods doesn't mean I must. I think the world will continue to evolve just fine.

Why do you guys keep posting links that don't support your position?

From the video you just posted: "I've never met a long time fruitarian who is healthy who didn't cheat". He then goes on to suggest bacterial sources of B12 supplements for vegans.

Also, you're confused about what the peer review process is, it's not just someone's opinion about how they feel--it's about fair treatment of experimental evidence. The answers aren't yes and no as you might hope, welcome to biology. It's about building evidence and assigning likelihoods to different hypotheses.

Also, man has not evolved different dietary needs in several generations, that's so wrong it's really hard to even respond to. What's changed is that now you can take a mulit-vitamin to fill in the nutritional deficiencies from your diet. Nobody's objecting to that, I feel there are some defensible reasons to not eat animals. But saying it's somehow better for you nutritionally or that we're evolved to only eat plants is just obvious non-sense.

 

[BroDeal]

What are people doing here to ensure their b12 is high enough so they have sufficient red blood cell formation etc?

I eat meat. I will hazard a guess that it tastes better than feces.

 

[Rip:30]

1. Well with my levels around 800-1400,I dont have any b12 issues anymore and how come Im the only one here with bloodtests on youtube proving so lol!?

What are people doing here to ensure their b12 is high enough so they have sufficient red blood cell formation etc? Anyone got any levels to share with me? What are people here doing to lower their homocysteine? Anyone?

2. Its the same question for ANYONE regardless of diet. Why? Well how do we explain the low levels in the tests like the Framingham study etc that showed meat eaters having low b12 serum levels and elevated homocysteine? Interesting. So thinking you can eat dead animals and be fine with your b12/homocysteine is like thinking because you wear a seatbelt that you wont have an accident.

Something to think about..

After that TV show I did more tests. Turns out I lack intrinsic factor. Turns out thats got nothing to do with a deficiency of dead animals on my plate. Turns out I could have died or had some serious issues if I didnt find this out. So yeah, being vegan has saved my life in a few clinical instances. Same for many others too.

We don't post B12 levels because we don't have any symptoms of B12 deficiency. I have excellent neurological and hematological function which would be impossible if I were B12 deficient.

But hey, who needs a simple solution when you can live in some delusional realm where fruit is magic and vitamins have to be injected.

 

[lostintime]

Why do you guys keep posting links that don't support your position?

From the video you just posted: "I've never met a long time fruitarian who is healthy who didn't cheat". He then goes on to suggest bacterial sources of B12 supplements for vegans.

Also, you're confused about what the peer review process is, it's not just someone's opinion about how they feel--it's about fair treatment of experimental evidence. The answers aren't yes and no as you might hope, welcome to biology. It's about building evidence and assigning likelihoods to different hypotheses.

Also, man has not evolved different dietary needs in several generations, that's so wrong it's really hard to even respond to. What's changed is that now you can take a mulit-vitamin to fill in the nutritional deficiencies from your diet. Nobody's objecting to that, I feel there are some defensible reasons to not eat animals. But saying it's somehow better for you nutritionally or that we're evolved to only eat plants is just obvious non-sense.

I don't eat a fruitarian diet. Neither does DR btw. We all get B12 from somewhere ... outside of ourselves. Take your pick as to where.

Peer review .... your quote .... "It's about building evidence and assigning likelihoods to different hypotheses." that says nothing definitive , now does it ?

Yes ... man has evolved . I didn't say we all should be eating plants... or we've all evolved to .... but we can if we wish.

DR lacks and intrinsic factor for B12 ... did you miss that? . . . yet you still disparage him for taking B12 injections

 

[Rip:30]

I don't eat a fruitarian diet. Neither does DR btw. We all get B12 from somewhere ... outside of ourselves. Take your pick as to where.

Peer review .... your quote .... "It's about building evidence and assigning likelihoods to different hypotheses." that says nothing definitive , now does it ?

Yes ... man has evolved . I didn't say we all should be eating plants... or we've all evolved to .... but we can if we wish.

DR lacks and intrinsic factor for B12 ... did you miss that? . . . yet you still disparage him for taking B12 injections

Look up the words likelihood and hypothesis. Obviously you don't get how science works.

You're talking belief/religion, which compared to science has not done well in the last few centuries in terms of making correct prediction as to how the world works.

 

[lostintime]

Look up the words likelihood and hypothesis. Obviously you don't get how science works.

You're talking belief/religion, which compared to science has not done well in the last few centuries in terms of making correct prediction as to how the world works.

That depends on who you ask. One says potatoe ... one says potato. . . . .

Obviously you don't get how the world works beyond science.

Science is great and all ..... but it isn't everything .... not even close.

 

[Rip:30]

This pretty much proves my point. Most people who evangelize about some "amazingly superior diet" or training regime or whatever are using a belief/faith based knowledge system. Which is fine, except when they then try to misrepresent the science in order to provide false support for their beliefs.

Making stuff up and calling it science to drive an agenda makes Dr Rip

Just stick to the facts, you feel good about your choices, your body feels good, you respect life or whatever. I don't disagree with stuff like that and actually have a lot of respect for people that carve their own path. That respect diminishes when people feel the need promote their beliefs as superior to others', especially when science is then misappropriated to provide support.

To paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould "objectivity is not the absence of preference, but the fair treatment of data".

 

[M Sport]

Only Dave Zabriskie is a full time vegan.

In answer to the original question "Look at me, I am a Vegan! Can I persuade you to become one too?" my initial answer is no way, I love meat too much. My second part is I have always been too serious about sport to give up meat, I don't want my performance compromised by cutting out meat.

Cadel, Lance, Basso, Contador, Hamilton eat vegan when they want to cut weight. You know when guys like this are doing it and dont give an f about the animals/planet that there is something in it.

I don't entirely believe this. The last thing you want to do when dropping weight is cut out lean meat. They are probably just more selective about the cuts and types of meat they eat. I could see them cutting out dairy though.

 

[Archibald]

In answer to the original question "Look at me, I am a Vegan! Can I persuade you to become one too?" my initial answer is no way, I love meat too much. My second part is I have always been too serious about sport to give up meat, I don't want my performance compromised by cutting out meat.

I don't entirely believe this. The last thing you want to do when dropping weight is cut out lean meat. They are probably just more selective about the cuts and types of meat they eat. I could see them cutting out dairy though.

Explain to both statements in bold above...

How will your performance be compromised?

and

Why is cutting out lean meat the last thing you want to do when dropping weight?